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DIY: Do It Yourself
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:06 AM   #1
fmzip
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Brake flush gone bad??? Motive pressure bleeder

So I bought a Motive pressure bleeder and some SS brake lines from TMS. Replaced all the lines, then proceeded to flush the system. I've never used a pressure bleeder, only the onld fashion two man method on other cars in the past.

Here's what I did after replacing the lines.

1st
Removed all the old fluid from master cylinder using turkey baster.
2nd
Then I filled the master to the max with super blue.
3rd
Filled the Motive with 2 qts of Super Blue.
4th
Built the pressure to 20 psi (never let it fall below 15psi)
5. Bled passenger rear caliper, driver rear, passenger front, driver front and clutch until old fluid stopped coming out and blue fluid appeared.
6. Repeated this procedure 3 times "just because"
7. Relieved pressure from Motive tank, with the tank being turned sideways, read that somewhere.

To make a long story short, I have no brakes, no pedal pressure, the yellow brake light is on along with the triangle with the exclamation point. I used the catch bottle that they sell that is attached to the bleeder screw, I only got that bottle half full, the motive bleeder has ALOT of fluid in it. I thought to myself, something isn't right here when I was done!

I obviously did something wrong. How long should I let each caliper bleed timewise? I didn't see any bubbles but there is obviously air in the lines.

Advice, suggestions?? Figures it's 100 degrees here with 100% humidity today.............
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Old 06-10-2008, 11:13 AM   #2
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If you changed the lines and had them disconnected for an extended period of time, most likely air worked its way up into the ABS unit. May have to visit the dealer to have it bled on the machine and tickle the ABS?
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Old 06-10-2008, 11:25 AM   #3
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Maybe you got air in the system. How much of the fresh 2 quart of brake fluid was left over in the Motive Pressure Bleeder? You said, you only got half a bottle of old fluid in the catch container? You should have a lot more old fluid out if you are doing all four corners. Did you do the flush by yourself? You should have someone watch the reservoir and make sure that the Pressure bleeder is feeding the reservoir fresh fluid.
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Old 06-10-2008, 12:50 PM   #4
silver03-330i
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Bleed it again, you got air in the lines. And then... bleed it again.

You shouldn't ever have to use a turkey baster to remove the fluid in the master. In fact, this is a good way to introduce air into the system. If you want to do a complete flush, just flush each corner until the fluid runs clean or in your case, blue.
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Old 06-10-2008, 02:21 PM   #5
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Used less than a quart during this process......

I was following a DIY which mentioned to take the excess out with a baster. Now that I think about it, it would have been best to push it out instead....

It is feeding from the Motive into the master cylinder since the master cylinder level remains full as blue brake fluid is expelled from the calipers, maybe it's not blue enough, opaquish blue!

Will try rebleeding tonight.....what's this with air in the ABS unit?? Does the ABS unit need to bled too??

Used less than a quart during this process......
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Old 06-10-2008, 02:26 PM   #6
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I say since you have 2 quarts of the fluid, push all of that fluid out of your pressure bleeder. Just be careful not to run your reservior low.
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Old 06-10-2008, 03:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmzip View Post
Used less than a quart during this process......

I was following a DIY which mentioned to take the excess out with a baster. Now that I think about it, it would have been best to push it out instead....

It is feeding from the Motive into the master cylinder since the master cylinder level remains full as blue brake fluid is expelled from the calipers, maybe it's not blue enough, opaquish blue!

Will try rebleeding tonight.....what's this with air in the ABS unit?? Does the ABS unit need to bled too??
Used less than a quart during this process......
Unless you get air into the ABS unit, you dont need to bleed it. When you flush your system with a power bleeder (or regular 2 man job), you are just fluching out the fluid that is not in the ABS system. It sounds like you just have air in your system (not ABS system). Be sure to wiggle the new lines and tap the calipers when you are bleeding. Those pesky air bubbles can hide really well in those places. GL!
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:40 PM   #8
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re-bled them all....no brake warning lights, I do have some brakes but a very soft pedal that goes to the floor.

This pressure bleeder either sucks or the old two man process is the only way to go!

I bled through a good quart.....guess I need to to it yet again??
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:07 AM   #9
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I use the Bavauto pressure bleeder along with the BMW TIS bleeding procedure. According to the pressure bleeder instructions, bleeding BMW ABS systems requires a greater pressure charge (24-25psi) than non-ABS BMW systems. The TIS warns not to exceed 2 bar (~30psi) when the bleeder is pressurized and to start with the brake pedal partially depressed using a special tool that fits between the driver's seat and brake pedal. As a substitute, make a "T" out of two 2 x 4's - one to go across the bottom front of the seat and the other one to fit between the pedal and the other 2 x 4. Adjust the seat position as necessary to partially depress the brake pedal. After bleeding each line of the system with the pressure bleeder, the TIS says to manually bleed each line 5 times (Zeckhausen recommends you do this "about six times." Also read the One Man Bleeder Review).

If you add the manual bleeding steps at each wheel, your system should be as good as new. The only downside is that this "one-man job" is really requires two people.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:43 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by NoVaDreier View Post
I use the Bavauto pressure bleeder along with the BMW TIS bleeding procedure. According to the pressure bleeder instructions, bleeding BMW ABS systems requires a greater pressure charge (24-25psi) than non-ABS BMW systems. The TIS warns not to exceed 2 bar (~30psi) when the bleeder is pressurized and to start with the brake pedal partially depressed using a special tool that fits between the driver's seat and brake pedal. As a substitute, make a "T" out of two 2 x 4's - one to go across the bottom front of the seat and the other one to fit between the pedal and the other 2 x 4. Adjust the seat position as necessary to partially depress the brake pedal. After bleeding each line of the system with the pressure bleeder, the TIS says to manually bleed each line 5 times (Zeckhausen recommends you do this "about six times." Also read the One Man Bleeder Review).

If you add the manual bleeding steps at each wheel, your system should be as good as new. The only downside is that this "one-man job" is really requires two people.
Really this pressure bleeder is not the one man solution to brake bleeding! I really don't see what the benefit of this pressure bleeder was.

http://m3.madrussian.net/diy_brake_bleed.shtml

Everything I read says that the two man procedure still needs to be done.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:19 AM   #11
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If you got air in the ABS unit WHILE THE LINES WERE DISCONNECTED you may have to go to a dealer who has the ability to tickle the ABS and get the air out. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Motive bleeder so don't bad mouth it! You might check with a indy shop to see what they say or call BavAuto for advice.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:28 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by fmzip View Post
re-bled them all....no brake warning lights, I do have some brakes but a very soft pedal that goes to the floor.

This pressure bleeder either sucks or the old two man process is the only way to go!

I bled through a good quart.....guess I need to to it yet again??
Definately bleed it again. You replaced the lines and sucked all the fluid out of the reservoir. Plenty of air got into the system, I'm sure of it. I would give it one more try and finish it off with the old 2 man job just to be sure.
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:00 PM   #13
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Still didnt work? I feel your agony See if you cant get a friend to help you with a 2 man bleed....
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:44 PM   #14
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Getting the girlfriend to help out tomorrow!

I at least have some pedal so it could be hobbled to the dealer if necessary.

IMHO the Motive Bleeder is promoted as the one man solution, I haven't found that to be the case.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:25 PM   #15
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im also plannign to change lines... somewhere i heard that changing one line and then bleeding... change second line..... bleed.... and so on will keep air (if any) from getting into the system and the abs.

i''ve been very warry of doing this.... i bleed brakes all the time at the indy shop i work at lol but we never have to worry about abs or anyhting in 350Zs.

i love BMW but i hate how SOMETIES theres stuff only the dealer can do with special tools.

but good luck in getting everything worked out.

+1 for the lines they're worth it once you work out the minor kinks of air.
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Old 06-12-2008, 05:57 AM   #16
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I tend to agree with those who've said that the pressure bleeder is being unfairly vilified here.

It's all speculation of course, but as others have noted, I think the culprit here is the OP swapped out the brake lines which is likely where air got into the system. Under normal circumstances a fluid flush done properly, with either the pressure bleeder or 2-man system doesn't really introduce too much of a chance of getting air into the system. Assuming there isn't any there air in there already and you're just swapping out the fluid, either method should work fine. I've not swapped out brake lines, but I can imagine that would open up the system rather nicely to air bubbles.

I suspect that there's likely a preventative measure to avoid/reduce this problem when doing the line swap, but I've no idea what it might be.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:36 AM   #17
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Run a few quarts of brake fluid through using your pressure bleeder. You'll be fine.
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Old 06-12-2008, 08:01 AM   #18
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Two person brake bleeding is the way to go in my opinion. Use a clear tube on the end of the caliper to watch for fluid color change and a solid stream. You should not have to mess with the ABS system even if you swap for SS lines.
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Old 06-12-2008, 08:46 AM   #19
fmzip
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Run a few quarts of brake fluid through using your pressure bleeder. You'll be fine.
Did that, done that......

I think the advocates of the Motive pressure bleeder are missing something. It's a "pressure bleeder", used to remove air out of your brake system, plain and simple.

straight from their website:

Q: Why should I pressure bleed?

A: Pressure bleeding provides a safe and effective way to remove trapped air and other contaminants from the hydraulic system. A Motive Products POWER BLEEDER is easy to pressurize, and holds enough fluid for a complete system flush (most vacuum bleeders require repeated refilling of the reservoir.


A complete system flush would be necessary when replacing your brake lines to remove trapped air, right?

The pressure bleeder serves it's purpose. I like it, it's just not that cut and dry that it is always a one man operation which I was hoping it would be.........

I am fairly confident I will be able to get the air out. Quite honestly for the PITA that it is, I'd let an indy do the brake line and bleeding next time.
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Old 06-12-2008, 09:35 AM   #20
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http://www.bmwtips.com/tipsntricks/b...ol/bleeder.htm

I notice on this page that it says:

4. Pressure bleeders - fluid type. These use brake fluid in a large plastic or metal container and pressurize the car's reservoir with brake fluid. The benefit is that you don't need to stop to refill the master cylinder reservoir each time it runs low. And you reduce the liklihood of getting air in the system because you ran low on fluid. The downside is that you waste a large quantity of brake fluid since, once you open a bottle, it should be used right away or discarded. Excellent for replacing fluid. Simply pressurize, then crack open the bleed screw and wait while the fluid is pushed out into your catch bottle. But, unless you also combine it with a traditional "assistant pumps the pedal while you crack the bleed screw open" bleed, then there won't be enough of a "jolt" to knock loose all the bubbles.


Is this saying to use the pressure bleeder and pump the brakes at the same time??
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