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Old 03-08-2011, 01:31 PM   #41
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Two questions for you, and you've already answered one of them! (I too have a rust spot on my passenger rear fender, right below the gas tank door.. (very common E46 rust spot). Sounds like I need to attack it this summer and put my time into the prep work.

Now, the other question, My house was built in 1900, and when I bought the house, it came with a Ruud Monel gas water heater. This tank was very interesting to me and I did some research that shows that Monel is some sort of Copper/Nickel blend I think that was mainly used for marine practices. My guess as to why the stopped using it for hot water tanks is that it basically lasts forever. I actually found the original warranty booklet somewhere in my basement and it says that it was printed in December, 1950.

My question to you is: Will this water heater last forever because of it's Monel Tank?

From when the inspector visited my house to check out the new gas boiler we had installed (converted from oil), he took one look at that tank and said "oh, you'd be surprised at how long these things last, it's going to be here for a lot longer."

Why the heck don't they use this material for other applications that frequently rust, such as cars?? My guess is the high cost to manufacture it... Replacement cost of the actual Monel tank back in 1950 was like $100 for the smallest one and $275 for the biggest... in 1950!!!!

Funny, the tank had a warranty of 10 years. Looks like I might have lucked out!

as to why they don't make them for water heaters anymore, my guess is that it would put the water heating companies out of business because no one would ever have to replace them!
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Old 03-08-2011, 01:49 PM   #42
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Goingnuts says there is such thing as motor oil corrosion please explain
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:00 PM   #43
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Two questions for you, and you've already answered one of them! (I too have a rust spot on my passenger rear fender, right below the gas tank door.. (very common E46 rust spot). Sounds like I need to attack it this summer and put my time into the prep work.

Now, the other question, My house was built in 1900, and when I bought the house, it came with a Ruud Monel gas water heater. This tank was very interesting to me and I did some research that shows that Monel is some sort of Copper/Nickel blend I think that was mainly used for marine practices. My guess as to why the stopped using it for hot water tanks is that it basically lasts forever. I actually found the original warranty booklet somewhere in my basement and it says that it was printed in December, 1950.

My question to you is: Will this water heater last forever because of it's Monel Tank?

From when the inspector visited my house to check out the new gas boiler we had installed (converted from oil), he took one look at that tank and said "oh, you'd be surprised at how long these things last, it's going to be here for a lot longer."

Why the heck don't they use this material for other applications that frequently rust, such as cars?? My guess is the high cost to manufacture it... Replacement cost of the actual Monel tank back in 1950 was like $100 for the smallest one and $275 for the biggest... in 1950!!!!

Funny, the tank had a warranty of 10 years. Looks like I might have lucked out!

as to why they don't make them for water heaters anymore, my guess is that it would put the water heating companies out of business because no one would ever have to replace them!
You nailed it. Back in the 1950s and that era, people who built stuff built it with pride and the intentions of it having longevity, essentially over designed everything as a rule of thumb. Think how heavy the cars where then....way more metal than current day models, since they figured out they could get away with a lot less recently, they do and thus make a bigger profit.

Same concept with modern day hot water heaters. You could make a great one...but then you only sell one to each household every 100 years, not every 8...that doesn't make "business sense". Even if you get a modern day water heater, you can replace the anode that exist in the core of the unit every 5 years or so and it will last a heck of a lot longer...just have to be resourceful to find a proper fitting replacement anode and a lot of times, since no one is too knowledgable on that market, the replacement anodes are not a big enough demand that one can produce them in a cost effective manner/quantity and consumers can simply purchase a brand new water heater for the same price or cheaper...so why go through the trouble of fixing it.
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:04 PM   #44
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Goingnuts says there is such thing as motor oil corrosion please explain
GNs brain has corroded

Motor oil, and the like, gets way too deep into chemistry for me to comprehend. The simply BS answer I can give you is that it (motor oil) is a "batch of chemicals" mixed with oil that exist in a metal environment (aluminum in our case). That is simply a recipe for a reaction between the two, beit big or small. There is also the simply concept of errosion corrosion that can damage an engines internals.

That said, the R&D that goes into modern day oil does cover topics like corrosion and with synthetic oils out there, they are getting pretty good at producing an oil that is going to do minimal harm and become nothing to worry about.

It is pretty funny though, they had oils back in the Model T day that they claimed was less corrosive than others. I've seen old posters where xxxxx brand claimed they tore down an engine after 16,000 miles and inspected the internals to show the thing was like new and not pitted beyond beleif. Funny part being 16,000 miles!
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:05 PM   #45
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Will semen corrode my novillo leather?
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:10 PM   #46
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Will semen corrode my novillo leather?
Semen is actually considered a slightly aggressive substance in regards to corrosion, so clean that **** up

I don't know what "novillo" leather is though.
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:47 PM   #47
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Work in refineries eh?
Thanks for the answer. I'm a piping engineering working in a big EPC company. Refineries always look cool in a picture but it's actually pretty scary walking around in one. Like you said, piping and equipment can be so old but still running. Usually when I get sent out its to inspect and sign off installation of piping systems, inspect integrity of piping supports, etc.

Actually I have another question Some of the projects I have been on require that bare pipe cannot rest on a steel beam for corrosion purposes. So they weld a metal rod on the beam perpendicular to the pipe, consequently creating a point load on the pipe . I've seen very old piping that was supported in this manner and from what I could tell either the piping corroded or the rod was corroded badly. Is a linear load on the pipe that bad that it justifies creating a point load on the pipe? I would think the stress intensification at the point load would accelerate corrosion somehow? The only reason I can think of they don't want the line load is because water would easily get trapped in that area.
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:51 PM   #48
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How much quicker does HCI corrode a standard Steel Drum compared to a plastic lined drum...and furthermore, why is plastic HCI resistant?
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Old 03-08-2011, 03:15 PM   #49
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Thanks for the answer. I'm a piping engineering working in a big EPC company. Refineries always look cool in a picture but it's actually pretty scary walking around in one. Like you said, piping and equipment can be so old but still running. Usually when I get sent out its to inspect and sign off installation of piping systems, inspect integrity of piping supports, etc.

Actually I have another question Some of the projects I have been on require that bare pipe cannot rest on a steel beam for corrosion purposes. So they weld a metal rod on the beam perpendicular to the pipe, consequently creating a point load on the pipe . I've seen very old piping that was supported in this manner and from what I could tell either the piping corroded or the rod was corroded badly. Is a linear load on the pipe that bad that it justifies creating a point load on the pipe? I would think the stress intensification at the point load would accelerate corrosion somehow? The only reason I can think of they don't want the line load is because water would easily get trapped in that area.
Refineries scare the crap out of me to be honest.

Regarding bare pipe sitting on bare metal I-beams: Makes sense they wouldn't want the two touching...don't understand why they then put a metal rod in between the two. A common practice to in insert a FRP saddle between the two thus providing a layer of non-conductive material (and still spreading the load). When they attach the FRP saddle, they use some sort of "puddy", "clay" to seal off the gaps between the two structures preventing moisture from getting in between the two.

Speaking on concentrated load points vs spreading the load out, that's not really something we deal with, but the sensible answer seems obvious: A load spread over a greater surface area is better than a pinpointed load.

In terms of corrosion, a localized corrosion cell (that may occur with a pinpointed load) is much more aggressive and damaging than a general corrosion cell.
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Old 03-08-2011, 03:26 PM   #50
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How much quicker does HCI corrode a standard Steel Drum compared to a plastic lined drum...and furthermore, why is plastic HCI resistant?
A lot quicker. It all depends on which metal and which plastic we are talking about.

The rest is simple. Think electricity. When you touch a power outlet with a fork, you get zapped, why? Becuase the metal fork conducts electricity. Put a plastic for in the same socket...and nothing happens. Plastics do not have conductive properties like metals do.

This same concept of "conductivity" applies to corrosion. Hydrochloric acid will react chemically with the metal in an aggressive manner. A plastic (specially made plastic, not water bottle type plastic) lined drum is designed with the end use in mind and therefore is developed with a specific composition of materials to avoid such reactions.
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Old 03-08-2011, 03:33 PM   #51
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What is a typical work day like in the life of corrosion technician?

Do you work in a lab environment testing samples?

Or are you in the field doing site inspections?

Where in the drilling/refining time line does your role fall? Are you involved in the engineering of new systems or is your role to continually monitor the health of existing systems?
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Old 03-08-2011, 04:05 PM   #52
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What is a typical work day like in the life of corrosion technician?

Do you work in a lab environment testing samples?

Or are you in the field doing site inspections?

Where in the drilling/refining time line does your role fall? Are you involved in the engineering of new systems or is your role to continually monitor the health of existing systems?
Typical day:

Wake up early in my crappy hotel room in a random town. Think to myself, "Atleast I have an excuse for these crabs if my lady finds out". Shake that off, get ready for work.

Head to a fast food joint and eat myself a quality tasting, nutritious meal and enjoy a coffee (M Cafe is my favorite, also most easily found everywhere and cheapest). One I'm a bit more awake thanks to the coffee, I jump back into my very smooth riding Dodge pickup and head to whichever jobsite is the flavor of the day, enjoying such city traffic like Indianapolis in the morning (where I currently am).

Finished enjoying my morning creep from point A to B, I show up at the security gate of the facility I will be working at, verify my right to be there, FBI backround check credentials (thanks Coast Guard) and enter.

Walk through the facility and find the guy I need to find, who is usually very excited to see me face to face first thing in the morning as I am the person who took his job when xxxx company decided to outsource their corrosion technicians recently due to liability in the oil-spill proned market these days.

After securing a "safe work permit", aka "You f-up your screwed" paper I sign, I can then turn around and get back into my lovely pickup and head to the actually jobsite, be it another facility, pipeline right-of-way, etc.

I then use a collection of vodoo equipement to gather potential data on select locations along said structures, making sure each and every one meets a specific criterion and in the case that it doesn't, I troubleshoot the entire system to determine which one aspect, out of hundreds, is causing me problems and find way to fix it with the few materials I carry on my truck...a regular McGiver I am. If finding a fix fails and it is determined that the system has served its useful life and needs replaced, I must gather enough data so I can return to the office and come up with a design that fits the future needs....then we send out contruction crew out to perform the install.

Once I've put in a solid bullshitted 10-14 hours, I call it a day and make another peacefull haul back to my refreshing hotel suite. I then sit down and spend about a hour decifering how to charge my work day as there at job code, sub job codes, job codes that are used on the same piping system but get charged to different area owners, etc.

About 9, I relax a bit by releasing onto some curtains, or a wall, and sip a beer contemplating my next days adventures.



On the other topics:

I do not do lab testing. My company does have divisions that does, but I am one of the field operations guys. My month is pretty well split into thirds: A third of my work in sitting in an office, typing up reports, responding to emails, taking care of customer concerns, scheduling my next week, product research, continueing education, safety training, etc. A third is spent looking out of a windshield, I average about 40,000 miles a year...not all of which are comfortable highway driving, many many a miles spend cruising county roads following pipelines. The other third is me standing out in the elements, be it walking through a field, standing in an excavation, walking around a refinery/airport/school/city streets/etc....which is my favorite part of the job (no joking, I couldn't stand to be behind a computer all day every day).

I average about 150 nights a year in a hotel...I do love me some reward points from that **** though.


We fall into the "maintining existing infrastructure" category. We design, install and monitor/maintain corrosion control systems provided to the piping, tanks, etc that other put in and use. The EPA/DOT requires anything with a hazardous product (gas, oil, etc) contained within and subject to the effect of corrosion therefore a situation of potential release and environmental damage, has to be aforeded certain means of corrosion control and tested on a determined basis to ensure those systems continue to operate as intended.

Anyone need work, we are hiring! For real...
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:30 AM   #53
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Have you done any nuclear? I hear it's a real beeyotch.

A little cool story bro for ya: I was at the Irving Oil refinery in St. John, NB and got to meet Arthur Irving. Guy is more baller than birdman. Haven't washed my hand since.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:44 AM   #54
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Is that a steel that is extremely resistant to rust out there that could have a future?





I know there is a cutlery grade steel coming out from Japan with Carbon replaced with Nitrogen, thus it has an uncanny resistance to rust
Yes. It's called stainless steel.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:57 AM   #55
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is there any reduced lifespan/risk when having homes with rusted outer panels?

Like these,




I'm a fan of the look and style, but am concerned that over time the integrity of the structures may deteriorate.

question 1b) is there any way to seal in the rust with a sort of clear coat? And if something of this sort were done, would it cease the corrosion/oxidation? Or would the already corroded layer continue to eat away at the surface below?

That's it! I'm buying a rust home.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:27 PM   #56
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Have you done any nuclear? I hear it's a real beeyotch.

A little cool story bro for ya: I was at the Irving Oil refinery in St. John, NB and got to meet Arthur Irving. Guy is more baller than birdman. Haven't washed my hand since.
We do cooling water lines and fire foam lines for USEC uranium enrichment plants now and again...do not like being in those places either.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:51 PM   #57
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Can you rattle engineers' cages by calling yourself a "Corrosion Engineer"?
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:01 PM   #58
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Anyone need work, we are hiring! For real...
What qualifications does one need? What does entry level pay look like? Do you operate on per diem or expenses? Have TWIC, will travel.
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:02 PM   #59
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Awesome. Great response!

I'm not squeezing the metallurgist out of you, but can you tell me what these elements do to steels? I know what some of them do, but I'd like to hear from you

Chromium
Cobalt
Copper
Manganese
MolybdenumNickel
Phosphorus
Silicon
Sulfur
Tungsten
Vanadium

Thanks in advance
Not sure about all of them, but a lot of them are used in alloys, e.g. Chromium, cobalt, Molybdenum and Nickel, Vanadium...and seeing that you're asking about their effects on steel, which itself is an alloy (iron, vanadium tungsten, chromium, nickel, etc), I doubt a lot of them would do much.

That said, you listed some other things in there that aren't metal, like phosphorous, sulfur, and silicon. Sulfur especially exists in many oxidation states, meaning that it can be reduced by things like iron (and cause iron to oxidize, forming rust).

Anyways.....that's my guessa
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:50 PM   #60
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Can you rattle engineers' cages by calling yourself a "Corrosion Engineer"?
Oh yeah, they love it I considered calling the thread "ask a corrosion engineer anything" but figured someone would call my BS. That said, we are considered an engineering firm as the work is on par with such. Many of us are legit engineers that have backrounds in mechanical and civil engineering.

Until this year, there wasn't a true Corrosion Engineering degree offered anywhere. I grew up in Texas and went to the only school in the country with offering a Corrosion Technology degree. Akron U, here in Ohio, is starting their corrosion program this year...so soon enough we will have "true" engineers floating around.

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What qualifications does one need? What does entry level pay look like? Do you operate on per diem or expenses? Have TWIC, will travel.
PM'd. No sure how many details are good to give out on a public forum.
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