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Old 03-11-2011, 05:29 PM   #1
AMCINK
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NOOB - Considering the Olympic K23P AR-15

Hello
New to guns - Never had one and never shoot one (ready for major flames)
But I'm considering to enter into the field with an Olympic K23P AR-15
Pelase advise (be kind)
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:09 PM   #2
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What makes you want to get an AR15 pistol? Is there any specific use you have in mind for the K23P?
Do you specifically want an AR15, or do you just want a pistol?
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:43 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by AMCINK View Post
Hello
New to guns - Never had one and never shoot one (ready for major flames)
But I'm considering to enter into the field with an Olympic K23P AR-15
Pelase advise (be kind)
If you are brand new to guns, I'd recommend starting small and working your way up.

I'd suggest getting a .22LR as a first gun, because it is relatively inexpensive to buy the weapon, and very cheap to shoot (~$30 for 500 rounds compared to ~$30 for 50 rounds of .223).

Take a look at a Ruger 10/22 if you are looking for a rifle, and maybe a Ruger 22/45 or Browning Buckmark if you are looking for a pistol.

Also, I highly recommend taking a firearms proficiency class before purchasing one.

Edit: it occurs to me that if an AR pistol is what caught your eye, you may be interested in something more tactical. In that case, you may want to check out the Walther P22 pistol, and G22 Rifle, the Sig Mesquito pistol (not a favorite of mine tho), or the Sig .22 Carbine (whose actual name escapes me).
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:49 PM   #4
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I will be blunt on this - AVOID OLYMPIC. THEY ARE SH*T. Very low quality parts.

Secondly - why a pistol? What's wrong with a regular AR? I don't push people towards .22's to start with, but why a pistol AR?
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Old 03-11-2011, 07:50 PM   #5
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All
I like the AR pistol size (like a small/short rifle) and not the regular pistol size. The general use is for some fun/sport shooting and home security nothing specific. I also found the Franklin Armory (I read more about the Olympics and found bad reviews).

Franklin Armory AAR 15-Pistol specs below

Barrel:

Chambered in 5.56 NATO - safe for use with .223 Remington

Special order: 45ACP, 10mm, 40 S&W, & 9mm

Chrome Lined Chamber and Bore – Provides better extraction and durability

10.5” or 7.5” Barrel Configurations

4140 Chrome Moly Steel Construction

1/9-Inch Twist – Stabilizes the greatest variety of bullet weights

Parkerized

CAR Handguard (10.5” Configuration)

Free Floating Aluminum Handguard (7.5” Configuration)

Front Sight Gas Block with Integral Bayonet Lug and Front Sling Swivel

A2 Flash Hider

Upper Receiver:

A3 Flat Top

Forged 7075-T6 Aluminum

Hard Coat Type III Anodized Black

Full Picattiny Rail – Optics Ready

Forward Assist

Lower Receiver:

Forged 7075-T6 Aluminum

Hard Coat Type III Anodized Black

Specialized Tension Screw - Eliminates Upper/Lower Play

Bullet Button™ Magazine Release

Magazine Blocked off with a Derlin Plug.

Additional Features:

Certified Cable Lock, California Safety Manual, & Mil-Spec upper/lower components

Weight:5.2 Pounds (7.5” Barrel) / 5.8 Pounds (10.5” Barrel)

Length:23.5” (7.5” Barrel) / 26.6” (10.5” Barrel
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Old 03-11-2011, 09:02 PM   #6
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When you look at AR pistols, they are nearly worthless for anything other than novelty. They are hard to control, you can't be very accurate with them, and they are generally unreliable due to their design.
Also, in the "tactical world", AR pistols are considered to be sort of a joke. No operators (cops, SWAT, military, special ops, private security contractors, etc) use them for anything tactically related (duty, combat, security protection/PSD, etc.)

The issue that you have is that you live in California. You need to have a California-legal firearm. That in and of itself is a difficult task. There are several on this forum that can fill you in on the nuances of the California regulations regarding what you can and can't buy.

In terms of control and accuracy, AR pistols are not designed for control or accuracy. The issue is that you are dealing with a rifle cartridge which has a different trajectory than a pistol cartridge. The velocity is higher, so you need to understand what your cartridge will do at specific distances. AR pistols are 100yd capable, but not much more than that unless you rest it on a shooting rest or bag at the range. Because of the short barrel, the velocity will be significantly lower than with a rifle, so your overall long range capability is severely depleted.

The weapon has a shorter barrel, which creates control issues with the barrel due to the recoil dynamic. The 7.5" barrel will have more issues than the 10.5" barrel, but then and again, the 10.5" version will be much more unwieldy and awkward to handle. The only way to effectively shoot an AR pistol in a "tactical" manner is to employ the European SMG Sling method. The European method requires that you attach a single-point sling to the rear of the weapon on the receiver end plate, and then you adjust the sling so that when you extend your support hand (which will be holding the forearm portion) and the weapon is out in front of you, the sling will be taut. Then you grasp the grip with your firing/weapon side hand, and use both hands to drive the weapon forward and away from your body. This keeps the sling tight and helps to stabilize the weapon when firing. It was designed for submachine guns (SMGs) that shoot pistol rounds, which tend to have less recoil. Specifically, it was designed for the HK MP5 and the 9mm cartridge. Sound a little confusing? Yep, it is. This is not an easy skill to master.
Because of this, it takes a lot of practice, time and effort to shoot quickly and proficiently. Also, you cannot shoot it effectively with one hand. That basically ruins it for any type of non-recreational purpose (defense, for instance).

Then there are reliability issues. Pistols typically have very short 7, 7.5 or 8" barrels. As a result, they have short pistol-length gas tubes that are approximately 6.5" long. With this shot gas system, the gas pressure is extremely high and creates a significantly higher bolt speed. Most companies do not properly outfit their weapons with the appropriate components to compensate for this higher cyclic speed, and you wind up having malfunctions. The speed is so fast that often times the bolt may not properly extract a case from the chamber. If this happens, it will cause a double-feed. If the bolt rips the back of the case off, you will need to use a broken shell extractor to remove the casing. Eventually, you will get an extractor failure and the extractor will crack or break due to too much stress. The other issue that comes in is that the bolt will be moving so fast, that it will literally cycle faster than the magazine can feed. Essentially, your timing is off. This usually isn't an issue with pistols, since you typically won't be able to shoot the weapon fast enough to "outrun" the magazine. These issues can be alleviated by installing reliability upgrades like a heavier buffer and heavier springs. Still, it's no picnic. This is an issue with direct impingement (DI) AR15 weapons. If you instead purchase a piston operated weapon, like the Rock River Arms LAR-PDS, you won't have these same issues since piston systems don't have the same timing issues as DI systems.

Then you get into the issue of home defense. AR pistols are terrible for home defense. First off, the barrels are far too short for the cartridge. The average 9mm pistol cartridge has about 5-7 grains of gun powder, and you will get a little bit of a flash at the muzzle. The .223 loaded with standard 55gr FMJ ammunition will have around 27grains of gun powder. Your barrel is about twice as long, but you have almost 4x the amount of powder. Because of this, shooting an AR with a 7.5" barrel will produce a massive amount of muzzle flash that will look like a fireball. The concussion from the barrel is significantly higher, and it can give you headaches and other issues if you do not have the proper muzzle device/flash suppressor installed. A 10.5" barrel will work better, but you will still contend with significantly muzzle flash and concussion. In a home defense situation, this would blind you after the first shot if it were at night or in a darker area of the house. It would also completely and permanently damage your hearing since you would not be wearing hearing protection during a home invasion. Further, the concussion and burning powder that is coming out of the barrel can ricochet off of close hallway walls and come back at you and burn you.
Then you get into ammo selection, and you have to choose the proper load that will work in the weapon. Heavier bullets will not work in shorter barrels- particularly not with a 1:8 twist rate. You NEED 1:7 twist to stabilize projectiles in that short of a barrel. Further, you really can't shoot anything heavier than 62gr bullets, but 55gr and less are preferable. Most AR cartridge selections will over-penetrate, which is not good for home defense since it's never a good idea to have a round that will go through several walls in your house after it exits the bad guy. This is why rapid expansion "Urban" rounds are necessary, and those run about $18/box of 20 and up. ARs are good for home defense if you live in a secluded area, or if you have the proper setup. However, in most urban or suburban environments, it's not an ideal home defense system.

I built an AR15 rifle last year with a 7.5" barrel on it, so I know what I'm talking about. I have gone through extensive research and modifications to make sure that my rifle functions reliably. I also have installed a proper flash suppressor to direct the muzzle blast away from me, and it is a rifle, not a pistol. As such, control is not an issue. Accuracy on the rifle is 200yds, maybe a bit more if I really want to play with it, but I know that realistically it's a 200yd weapon at maximum effective distance.

Then, above all this, Olympic is a junk company.
You know that the Franklin Armory guns are single shot only, right? You understand that you have to manually load each round into the chamber one at a time and that it has no magazine for a capacity higher than one single round?


If you truly want this weapon, then so be it. Just be realistic about its usage. It's a target and plinking gun only. Nothing more. They are just simply novelty guns. If you are realistic about the weapon and what it is for, then there's nothing wrong with buying one. However, for any other purpose like home defense, you probably could not choose a worse firearm.
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Old 03-11-2011, 09:12 PM   #7
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Amazing write-up Reedo. AMCINK - I truly hope you re-consider the purchase
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Old 03-12-2011, 10:36 AM   #8
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REEDO302
Thank you that is so much detail information and great advice
Do you suggest to start with a pistol? for sport/home defense - I read decent review on the Glocke 19 any thoughts also how about building an Ar-15 - what could be a decent build with about a 1500 budget

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Old 03-12-2011, 12:08 PM   #9
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A Glock 19 is an excellent pistol. 9mm ammunition is very affordable, plentiful, and it is effective. It's also an easy caliber to shoot and get used to shooting. You can develop proper marksmanship skills with it, whereas with the AR pistol would would not.
Building an AR is fun, but you have to have the right tools and and knowledge to do it. Given that you live in California, I would suggest you look into buying an AR15 carbine / "M4gery". Several companies have CA compliant rifles with the necessary bullet button and whatnot. Building one can be difficult given your state laws. Someone else on here from CA hopefully will list who all makes weapons you can buy.
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Old 03-12-2011, 03:21 PM   #10
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This is a sample of what i like- i do not know about the legality in cali though
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Old 03-12-2011, 09:28 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ThEnder View Post
If you are brand new to guns, I'd recommend starting small and working your way up.

I'd suggest getting a .22LR as a first gun, because it is relatively inexpensive to buy the weapon, and very cheap to shoot (~$30 for 500 rounds compared to ~$30 for 50 rounds of .223).

Take a look at a Ruger 10/22 if you are looking for a rifle, and maybe a Ruger 22/45 or Browning Buckmark if you are looking for a pistol.

Also, I highly recommend taking a firearms proficiency class before purchasing one.

Edit: it occurs to me that if an AR pistol is what caught your eye, you may be interested in something more tactical. In that case, you may want to check out the Walther P22 pistol, and G22 Rifle, the Sig Mesquito pistol (not a favorite of mine tho), or the Sig .22 Carbine (whose actual name escapes me).
Are we a little off here? $30? $5.99 for a box of 20 rounds for PMC bronze or PMC X-Tac. So more like $30 for 100 rounds, plus some states have no tax so thats $29.95 for 100 rounds. Realistically 70-100 rounds for $30.

Other than that you are right on. OP needs to start with a .22 if this is his first gun.
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Old 03-12-2011, 09:32 PM   #12
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When you look at AR pistols, they are nearly worthless for anything other than novelty. They are hard to control, you can't be very accurate with them, and they are generally unreliable due to their design.
Also, in the "tactical world", AR pistols are considered to be sort of a joke. No operators (cops, SWAT, military, special ops, private security contractors, etc) use them for anything tactically related (duty, combat, security protection/PSD, etc.)

The issue that you have is that you live in California. You need to have a California-legal firearm. That in and of itself is a difficult task. There are several on this forum that can fill you in on the nuances of the California regulations regarding what you can and can't buy.

In terms of control and accuracy, AR pistols are not designed for control or accuracy. The issue is that you are dealing with a rifle cartridge which has a different trajectory than a pistol cartridge. The velocity is higher, so you need to understand what your cartridge will do at specific distances. AR pistols are 100yd capable, but not much more than that unless you rest it on a shooting rest or bag at the range. Because of the short barrel, the velocity will be significantly lower than with a rifle, so your overall long range capability is severely depleted.

The weapon has a shorter barrel, which creates control issues with the barrel due to the recoil dynamic. The 7.5" barrel will have more issues than the 10.5" barrel, but then and again, the 10.5" version will be much more unwieldy and awkward to handle. The only way to effectively shoot an AR pistol in a "tactical" manner is to employ the European SMG Sling method. The European method requires that you attach a single-point sling to the rear of the weapon on the receiver end plate, and then you adjust the sling so that when you extend your support hand (which will be holding the forearm portion) and the weapon is out in front of you, the sling will be taut. Then you grasp the grip with your firing/weapon side hand, and use both hands to drive the weapon forward and away from your body. This keeps the sling tight and helps to stabilize the weapon when firing. It was designed for submachine guns (SMGs) that shoot pistol rounds, which tend to have less recoil. Specifically, it was designed for the HK MP5 and the 9mm cartridge. Sound a little confusing? Yep, it is. This is not an easy skill to master.
Because of this, it takes a lot of practice, time and effort to shoot quickly and proficiently. Also, you cannot shoot it effectively with one hand. That basically ruins it for any type of non-recreational purpose (defense, for instance).

Then there are reliability issues. Pistols typically have very short 7, 7.5 or 8" barrels. As a result, they have short pistol-length gas tubes that are approximately 6.5" long. With this shot gas system, the gas pressure is extremely high and creates a significantly higher bolt speed. Most companies do not properly outfit their weapons with the appropriate components to compensate for this higher cyclic speed, and you wind up having malfunctions. The speed is so fast that often times the bolt may not properly extract a case from the chamber. If this happens, it will cause a double-feed. If the bolt rips the back of the case off, you will need to use a broken shell extractor to remove the casing. Eventually, you will get an extractor failure and the extractor will crack or break due to too much stress. The other issue that comes in is that the bolt will be moving so fast, that it will literally cycle faster than the magazine can feed. Essentially, your timing is off. This usually isn't an issue with pistols, since you typically won't be able to shoot the weapon fast enough to "outrun" the magazine. These issues can be alleviated by installing reliability upgrades like a heavier buffer and heavier springs. Still, it's no picnic. This is an issue with direct impingement (DI) AR15 weapons. If you instead purchase a piston operated weapon, like the Rock River Arms LAR-PDS, you won't have these same issues since piston systems don't have the same timing issues as DI systems.

Then you get into the issue of home defense. AR pistols are terrible for home defense. First off, the barrels are far too short for the cartridge. The average 9mm pistol cartridge has about 5-7 grains of gun powder, and you will get a little bit of a flash at the muzzle. The .223 loaded with standard 55gr FMJ ammunition will have around 27grains of gun powder. Your barrel is about twice as long, but you have almost 4x the amount of powder. Because of this, shooting an AR with a 7.5" barrel will produce a massive amount of muzzle flash that will look like a fireball. The concussion from the barrel is significantly higher, and it can give you headaches and other issues if you do not have the proper muzzle device/flash suppressor installed. A 10.5" barrel will work better, but you will still contend with significantly muzzle flash and concussion. In a home defense situation, this would blind you after the first shot if it were at night or in a darker area of the house. It would also completely and permanently damage your hearing since you would not be wearing hearing protection during a home invasion. Further, the concussion and burning powder that is coming out of the barrel can ricochet off of close hallway walls and come back at you and burn you.
Then you get into ammo selection, and you have to choose the proper load that will work in the weapon. Heavier bullets will not work in shorter barrels- particularly not with a 1:8 twist rate. You NEED 1:7 twist to stabilize projectiles in that short of a barrel. Further, you really can't shoot anything heavier than 62gr bullets, but 55gr and less are preferable. Most AR cartridge selections will over-penetrate, which is not good for home defense since it's never a good idea to have a round that will go through several walls in your house after it exits the bad guy. This is why rapid expansion "Urban" rounds are necessary, and those run about $18/box of 20 and up. ARs are good for home defense if you live in a secluded area, or if you have the proper setup. However, in most urban or suburban environments, it's not an ideal home defense system.

I built an AR15 rifle last year with a 7.5" barrel on it, so I know what I'm talking about. I have gone through extensive research and modifications to make sure that my rifle functions reliably. I also have installed a proper flash suppressor to direct the muzzle blast away from me, and it is a rifle, not a pistol. As such, control is not an issue. Accuracy on the rifle is 200yds, maybe a bit more if I really want to play with it, but I know that realistically it's a 200yd weapon at maximum effective distance.

Then, above all this, Olympic is a junk company.
You know that the Franklin Armory guns are single shot only, right? You understand that you have to manually load each round into the chamber one at a time and that it has no magazine for a capacity higher than one single round?


If you truly want this weapon, then so be it. Just be realistic about its usage. It's a target and plinking gun only. Nothing more. They are just simply novelty guns. If you are realistic about the weapon and what it is for, then there's nothing wrong with buying one. However, for any other purpose like home defense, you probably could not choose a worse firearm.
Good write-up. I agree Olympic is on the lower end of the AR15 spectrum and would avoid them. AR15 pistols are cool to look at but are not practicle..
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Old 03-12-2011, 11:26 PM   #13
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Can anyone help the OP out with California weapons info?
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:05 AM   #14
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Can anyone help the OP out with California weapons info?
Here is a start.

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:53 AM   #15
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Reinforces my belief that if I lived in California, I'd either move or shoot myself in the face.
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Old 03-13-2011, 01:00 AM   #16
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Reinforces my belief that if I lived in California, I'd either move or shoot myself in the face.
LOL, tell me about. I am a resident of California and own a home there. I have a California DL and everything but live in Oregon right now and totally would hold up my California DL and flip of CDOJ while shooting an SBR full auto Colt Law Enforcement AR15, SBR Kriss Super V, SBR F2000, and SPAS 12 shotgun....They couldn't do a thing...

Seriously speaking though, the laws there are a joke and would never ever own a bullet button, RADD lock, featureless AR, etc.. I follow Federal laws and Oregon State laws even though I own a home and am a California resident.
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Old 03-13-2011, 01:53 AM   #17
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Does California only restrict its own residents from possessing cool guns and accessories? If I were to travel to Cali for a training course or some short term visit, bringing my own AR or handgun w/ a 15rd magazine wouldn't be an issue, would it? Or would it?
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Old 03-13-2011, 01:58 AM   #18
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Does California only restrict its own residents from possessing cool guns and accessories? If I were to travel to Cali for a training course or some short term visit, bringing my own AR or handgun w/ a 15rd magazine wouldn't be an issue, would it? Or would it?
It does restrict its own residents and out of state owners. However if you are going to visit you have to abide by California law even if you are lets say a resident from Oregon. If I goto California I have to abide by California law with my rifles, which means I have to install a bullet button, mag lock, or other laws they have as per their chart. I can get around this by working for DHS. Like the military you can apply for a AW permit before you enter the state. Downside is you are restricted to 10 round magazines but you can run a featured rifle.

They are working on a new law to allow 20-30 round magazines.. there is a thread on Calguns right now. Not sure where it is..

SBR's and SBS are almost impossible to get. You have to apply for a "Dangerous Weapons Permit" and it must be approved before you can assemble those weapons in the state along with BATF approval but 98% of California Police Chiefs will not sign off on your Form 4.
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Old 03-13-2011, 02:45 PM   #19
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This is so confusing!! Thanks for the Info. Is there a list of ar-15 APPROVED in California? That will be an easy approach

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Old 03-13-2011, 06:52 PM   #20
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This so confusing!! Thanks for the Info. SI there a list of ar-15 APPROVED in California? That will be an easy approach
It can be confusing and even on Calguns they debate over some of the things on the chart.

Remember California also has an OAL of 30" you have to abide by. Feds have the 26" limit semiauto carbines law but California bumps it to 30". Then you have the 10 round maximum magazine limit law. If you run featureless you dont have to run a bullet button but I also saw you have to run those ugly looking pistol grip extenders.

Like these...





Here is the thread....

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ht=featureless
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