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Old 04-11-2011, 04:40 PM   #1
JenovaImproved
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Really need diagnostic Help, e46 330i

I've been trying to fix an ongoing problem with my car for about 6 months now, and I'm running out of ideas. Please help. The symptoms all go away when the maf gets unplugged, which is ridiculously weird since im using a verified good maf (brand new, and my old one was put in another car and works).

Symptoms when maf plugged in:
1) Will not hold idle when cold. It sputters and dies in less than 2 seconds.
2) Significant loss of power when taking off, 1200-3000 rpm range. Engine will bog if it's under 2k when the clutch gets to fully engaged position.
3) Codes thrown are running rich on both banks and ICV stuck closed.
4) If you rev to around 2300, you can hear the engine sputter a little, almost sounds like a misfire but if you really listen, it sounds like the intake is clogging, like the throttle body is shutting for tiny seconds (vroommmm bump bump rooom bump etc). If you look at the maf data the g/s is dropping and in INPA the total air intake amount is dropping to match the bumps.
5) no idea if this is what it's supposed to look at but when i open up INPA and look at the "rough" listing it shows the 6 cylinders and they all seem to be at different levels when at idle.. just thought id add that.

Parts already replaced:
1) OEM Maf, and the wires to the ECU and the plug to the maf have been replaced and checked with a voltage meter to be good. If you look at the live data the maf g/s drops right when the sputter happens, but it's a brand new OEM MAF that i know works ;(
2) Vanos Seals. Felt the improvement here and getting better MPG but did not fix the issue at hand.
3) ICV cause of the code.
4) Vacuum leaks were fixed then smoke tested again to ensure the whole intake system was sealed properly.

The only things i can think of to replace now are Throttle body cause of the throttle position sensor that's integrated or the fuel pump. The only problem is would those 2 items completely work when the maf is unplugged? That's the issue, why would everything completely work with the maf unplugged? Any input is greatly appreciated, and i have access to a laptop with INPA (and soon GT1 as soon as i get it to recognize the diaghead properly) so i can get any data anyone needs from those to help diagnosis. TY
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Old 04-11-2011, 07:28 PM   #2
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The PCV system has been eliminated from the equation as well.
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Old 04-11-2011, 07:32 PM   #3
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Well since you checked for intake leaks that rules it out.

My friend had a problem that you would rev it and it would die. He needed a new maf regardless, but he also had a big hole in an intake boot.
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:19 PM   #4
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:50 AM   #5
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have you tried fuel presure regulator?
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Old 04-13-2011, 07:43 AM   #6
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Always agree with Jake, OP, even if it's extremely likely sounding!

You didn't mention the intake boot, and since you replaced ICV, thought you would have replaced that. Did you remove TB, clean it with carb cleaner (which I've just learned is probably better than the brake/parts cleaner I see mentioned here all the time...and have participated in that myself!)?

It sounds like large enough of a leak, and I think it is that, to suspect you either have a crack and missed it; made a crack from icv replacement and missed it; or maybe didn't put lower intake boot on right in the tab (nothing personal!)?

Disa 0-ring/sealing goes bad, as does TB gasket; there's also an IAT 0-ring, but those would probably only leak a little bit. There are hoses in the evap system that could crack....other hoses using vacuum seemingly just tossed in there to be annoying!

Use a garden hose to isolate the presumed tell-tale sign of a leak. Get someone to lightly rev car while you listen. Watch for moving things! (You seem like you know what you're doing, but either forgot to mention you've examined the boot, or you skipped over/missed it. Also, believing as I do in proximate causes, as hard as it might be for you to hear, you may have done something/not done something during your repairs on the things you 'eliminated' as potential causes. Just run through what you did in your mind and try to remember those areas you might have had an issue with but 'think' you figured out. Just saying...you sound competent, but I don't know you!
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Old 04-13-2011, 07:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmax View Post
other hoses using vacuum seemingly just tossed in there to be annoying!
+1 million!!!
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Old 04-13-2011, 11:43 AM   #8
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Unfortunately the intake boot is a custom solid steel one all the way down to the TB, does not crack.. also I believe i mentioned i had it smoke tested? There were 2 leaks, including the disa o-ring, both of which were fixed then I had them smoke test it again cause it didnt fix the issue. How I wish it was as simple as a vacuum leak though. Maybe there's a leak further down past the TB that a smoke test doesnt have enough psi for? *shrug*
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Old 04-13-2011, 11:51 AM   #9
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Did you actually REPLACE the ICV or just clean?
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:35 PM   #10
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Did you actually REPLACE the ICV or just clean?
She/he says they replaced it .......

Quote:
Originally Posted by JenovaImproved View Post
Unfortunately the intake boot is a custom solid steel one all the way down to the TB, does not crack.. also I believe i mentioned i had it smoke tested? There were 2 leaks, including the disa o-ring, both of which were fixed then I had them smoke test it again cause it didnt fix the issue. How I wish it was as simple as a vacuum leak though. Maybe there's a leak further down past the TB that a smoke test doesnt have enough psi for? *shrug*
Try changing back to the stock intake for now, see if it helps the issue at all.
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:26 PM   #11
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ICV was cleaned, then replaced the next week cause that didnt work.

I dont really have the original intake, since this one was on the car when i bought it 4 years ago, and worked fine before so it shouldnt make a difference?
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:33 PM   #12
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It's steel directly on TB? Is there a gasket in between?

I'm curious about that fitting. And, working for four years doesn't really mean much more than 'it's done its time' quite often here.

It sure sounds sturdy, but also unique, and that also makes me wonder about it.
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Old 04-14-2011, 07:59 PM   #13
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It's got a gasket just like the ones around the maf, hose clamps on both sides, works great. Pain in the ASS to get out tho. but ya there's no leaks between TB and maf. smoke tested it twice by indy with a machine. actually past the TB cause disa leaked before and i fixed that and after there was no smoke so it's pretty damn sealed.

I have a new intake camshaft sensor coming because that could be a possible problem. OEM. If that doesn't fix im going to test the vacuum negative pressure. Maybe there's too much crankcase pressure and i need to put a breather valve or something.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:51 AM   #14
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:11 PM   #15
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:16 PM   #16
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I'm curious as to the cause of ICV sticking. Are you running aftermarket air filter such as a K&N. OEM filter goes a long way in helping keep the ICV clean from gunk.
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:46 PM   #17
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When you disconnect the MAF, the car should go into open loop mode, ignoring the MAF data AND O2 sensors. It injects fuel based on engine speed, load and oil/coolant temps using default values stored in the ECM.

Since you are getting a rich condition with the MAF plugged in, what is your fuel pressure? You can measure it at the injector fuel rail. My Bentley manual shows it should be 50.76psi +- 2.9psi.
Have you checked/replaced the air filter?
Maybe your fuel pressure regulator is bad. On the 330 models it is integrated into the fuel filter. I would also check the vacuum line that connects to the fuel filter to make sure it is not leaking/disconnected.

Since you have INPA software, what are your fuel trims? (measure after a drive with the MAF connected)
Here is some info on those values:
http://www.europeantransmissions.com...ptationBMW.pdf

The "rough" cylinder values you mention are probably the "smooth running values", the ECM measures the "work" performed each time a cylinder fires and uses it to compute those values and for misfire detection.
I believe they are only really valid at idle and should be close to 0 for an engine running well.
Here are some samples from my 330Ci:
Recorded at idle with AutoEnginuity BMW diagnostic software after about 15 minutes of driving:

Code:
     cylinder     1      2       3        4        5      6
  09:34:16.443	0.04	0.01	0.05	0.03	-0.14	0.03
  09:34:23.323	0.01	0.10	-0.02	0.04	-0.01	-0.08
  09:34:30.280	-0.03	0.14	-0.08	0.02	-0.04	-0.05
  09:34:37.253	-0.02	0.12	0.00	0.05	-0.15	0.01
  09:34:44.164	0.03	0.07	0.02	0.01	-0.13	-0.02
  09:34:51.122	0.00	0.12	0.02	0.02	-0.13	-0.06
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:14 PM   #18
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I'll have to find a way to check the PSI on that fuel rail. I replaced the fuel filter like 3 years ago so i guess it might be due for a change, but do you really think the symptom would go away completely with the maf unplugged?

My fuel trims with the maf plugged in go completely down to -28 then say they cant trim enough. Which i know points to a vacuum leak but i dont fricken have one i swear, i smoke tested twice. Is it possible my vacuum system isnt sucking good enough anymore and needs to be replaced without throwing codes or something?

I'll have to look at those rough numbers again, but i dont see them anywhere near yours. Maybe ill grab a copy of your autoenginuity stuff so the numbers are being displayed the same way. Thanks for taking the time to post that.
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:26 PM   #19
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I'm not a mechanic, you know...or should know by the way I talk about cars!...but I reread your description of the shop smoke testing between maf and tb and 'beyond' into disa...but I'm thinking that the evap system, that works with vac, must have a check valve of some sort, so smoking 'just' from intake might not check for leaks in evap system. Also, there are other systems that work off of vac, but I don't know any more than that.

Sorry if this is just a distraction! You're speaking in a language yet foreign to me!
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:49 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by JenovaImproved View Post
I'll have to find a way to check the PSI on that fuel rail. I replaced the fuel filter like 3 years ago so i guess it might be due for a change, but do you really think the symptom would go away completely with the maf unplugged?

My fuel trims with the maf plugged in go completely down to -28 then say they cant trim enough. Which i know points to a vacuum leak but i dont fricken have one i swear, i smoke tested twice.
With the MAF unplugged, check to see if you get different "fuel trims", might even be zero. Could be because the ECM is not using the MAF for airflow or the O2 sensors for lean/rich adjustments.

Fuel trims of MINUS 28 (either % for long term (multiplicative) or ms for short term (additive) ) do not indicate a vacuum leak, they indicate an intake restriction OR too much fuel is being supplied. (according to document I linked)


Additive (idle speed)
If the value is less than -0.2 ms there is an air restriction or too
much fuel is being supplied to the system.
The 02 sensor indicates a RICH condition
The engine control module tries to LEAN out.the mixture.

Multiplicative (part throttle / part load)
If the value is less than -8 % there is an air restriction or too
much fuel being supplied to the system.
The 02 sensor indicates a RICH condition
The engine control module tries to LEAN out the mixture.



More info from TIS: Notes on fuel pressure check
http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/s/view.pl?1/05/38/45

If the measured value is less than the nominal value - 0.2 bar:
- Line cross-sections in fuel feed are constricted or fuel filter is clogged,
or
- Fuel pump voltage supply is not O.K.: e.g. as a result of high contact resistance (corrosion) in plug connection between wiring harness and fuel pump.
If the measured value is greater than the nominal value + 0.2 bar:
- Turn off engine stop and then observe measured value.
- If measured value drops to nominal value, then line cross-sections in fuel return are constricted or clogged.
- Check the fuel lines for kinks.
If no kinks are visible:
- Replace return lines
If measured value remains too high, then pressure regulator is in all probability faulty.
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