E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Suspension & Braking Forum by BimmerWorld

Suspension & Braking Forum by BimmerWorld
Have some questions about suspension or brake setups for your E46 BMW? Get all your answers here!
Sponsored by BimmerWorld

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 08-29-2012, 03:53 PM   #61
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,827
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by smolck View Post
No I didn't. Once again, see my videos.......

that's not what I heard you tell someone you did to your car not too long ago and this was over the phone... just the messenger here.
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2012, 03:55 PM   #62
smolck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Birmngham, AL
Posts: 1,059
My Ride: 2004 ZHP Sedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by E46Mango View Post
that's not what I heard you tell someone you did to your car not too long ago and this was over the phone... just the messenger here.
Did you really just say "that's not what I heard"? 5th grade anyone?

My ZHP subframe has never been off. Since I bought the tool in the video a long time before I bought the ZHP, why wouldn't I use it? This seems like such a stupid argument, but why not just tell me who you are referring to rather than act like a child about it?
__________________
Check out my BMW Blog
http://smolckbmw.blogspot.com/


Check my Youtube channel for DIY's and fun stuff
http://www.youtube.com/user/flipfinish?feature=mhee
smolck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2012, 04:01 PM   #63
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,827
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by smolck View Post
Did you really just say "that's not what I heard"? 5th grade anyone?

My ZHP subframe has never been off. Since I bought the tool in the video a long time before I bought the ZHP, why wouldn't I use it? This seems like such a stupid argument, but why not just tell me who you are referring to rather than act like a child about it?
I won't waste my time. My point is that little tidbit of information I gave was for a reason. Your credibility doesn't hold up if you're holding an entire engine up by a crankshaft pulley. It may not have been your car.. but you recommended it. And you know exactly what I am talking about. there's a right way to do things and a wrong way.
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2012, 04:07 PM   #64
smolck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Birmngham, AL
Posts: 1,059
My Ride: 2004 ZHP Sedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by E46Mango View Post
I won't waste my time. My point is that little tidbit of information I gave was for a reason. Your credibility doesn't hold up if you're holding an entire engine up by a crankshaft pulley. It may not have been your car.. but you recommended it. And you know exactly what I am talking about. there's a right way to do things and a wrong way.
So I post a VIDEO proving I do it the right way, have made numerous posts on other forums offering people the FREE use of my engine support bar (so others can do it the right way) and you claim my credibility is suspect because you claim some "person" you won't name said I told them to support the engine by the crank shaft pulley? Then you tell me I KNOW what you are talking about when I clearly don't?

I think it speaks volumes about you actually. See, unlike you, I don't have a clever handle to hide behind. I use my real name, most people refer to me by it, yet you won't even out your "source". Who is more credible here?

By the way, how in the world does this have ANYTHING to do with the control arm topic? It DOESN'T.
__________________
Check out my BMW Blog
http://smolckbmw.blogspot.com/


Check my Youtube channel for DIY's and fun stuff
http://www.youtube.com/user/flipfinish?feature=mhee

Last edited by smolck; 08-29-2012 at 04:33 PM.
smolck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2012, 05:50 PM   #65
ryannel2003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Bern, NC
Posts: 973
My Ride: '04 Cadillac Deville
I just ordered these control arms and bushings from BMA Parts for $299 shipped. Think I got a good deal on these and I'm looking forward to getting them installed. I did a check of the car on the lift a few weeks ago and both the tie rods looked good... the ends looked brand new to me. Everything else looked pretty nice underneath and the subframe was in good shape (Thank God!). Car still feels solid with nearly 146k miles on it!
__________________
ryannel2003 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2012, 06:19 PM   #66
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,827
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalibuMafiaV View Post
Correction Mango. I spoke to Smolck on the phone because hes a very good friend of mine. I asked him if supporting the engine on the crank was ok and Smolck said "HE'LL NO!" lol. Smolck definitely knows his way around the E46 platform and that's why I go to him for advise about a lot of things. Some people will get upset at his advise but you have to realize some of the advise he gives is the cheap way to do it which is ASKED by me or others before he even gives it. I always ask him what's the cheapest way to fix this or that?. Smolck and I know it's not the right way but will it work to get the job done? sure it will.

Mango you should know by now looking and seeing my E46 that I don't care about a lot of things on it. If it runs and drives ok. In my book it's fine You know how many screws and random little things are broken or missing on it. Front bumper is completely held on by metal wires and zip ties like a BAUS.
No. You do this a lot. You've said one thing and you change your story later on. I clearly remember you saying he said "he did this once but didn't feel too comfortable about it but said we could do it and it should be fine."

You asked ME if I thought it was OK. I'm the one who said I wouldn't if it was my car. I clearly and specifically remember you getting off the phone and telling me he just said it should be fine and that he did it. I know you don't mean it but you do change stories... a lot.
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2012, 06:22 PM   #67
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,827
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryannel2003 View Post
I just ordered these control arms and bushings from BMA Parts for $299 shipped. Think I got a good deal on these and I'm looking forward to getting them installed. I did a check of the car on the lift a few weeks ago and both the tie rods looked good... the ends looked brand new to me. Everything else looked pretty nice underneath and the subframe was in good shape (Thank God!). Car still feels solid with nearly 146k miles on it!
that's really good. I paid $332 shipped two years ago. seems the price is going down.
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2012, 09:56 PM   #68
Jahan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 24
My Ride: 2008 Corvette
FWIW, control arm stiffness is a major factor when it comes to steering response. The fact that the Meyle arm weighs 1.1lbs (~15%) more than the ZHP arm indicates that it is either made from a different alloy or it's a different design, which means the stiffness is most likely not the same either. If there's a stiffness difference of a similar magnitude as the weight difference, there would very likely be a small but noticeable difference in steering. BMW has the measurement and analysis tools to optimize the stiffness/weight/performance of the arm. Meyle just has the BMW arm to copy.

Also, it's been a while since I changed them, but I'm pretty sure my original ZHP FCAB's were NOT fluid filled. They are voided, meaning it's not a solid cylindrical bushing, which helps reduce the stiffness to improve comfort.
Jahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2012, 02:41 AM   #69
Megalocnus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,058
My Ride: 05 330i ZHP/MT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahan View Post
Also, it's been a while since I changed them, but I'm pretty sure my original ZHP FCAB's were NOT fluid filled. They are voided, meaning it's not a solid cylindrical bushing, which helps reduce the stiffness to improve comfort.
I can't see ZHP-specific control arm bushings. I think the ZHP control arms and the regular control arms both use the same set of bushings (31126783376). And yes, they have some oil inside the rubber. You need to drill through them to see the oil though.
Megalocnus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 08:03 PM   #70
Zell
Registered User
 
Zell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Such City
Posts: 5,732
My Ride: '02 Dogemobile Shibe
Just did my Meyle HDs today on my ZHP control arms. They do not look as far on as yours are. They lined up relatively well with the bolt holes (though required some twisting), and that end nub thing is probably just a hair farther back than I see on yours. They refuse to go any further, even after lots of coaxing with a mallet and more soapy water. Think I'm okay? Will they eventually find their way to the right place as I drive if they aren't for some reason?

Steering is nice and tight.
__________________
Zell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 08:49 PM   #71
ZHPinthe103
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Pennsylvannia
Posts: 375
My Ride: 325i Black on beige
Where can i buy the oem bushings?
__________________
ZHPinthe103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 08:53 PM   #72
Alex323Ci
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Huntington Beach -Surf City USA
Posts: 17,168
My Ride: M3 & 323Ci (sold)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zell View Post
Just did my Meyle HDs today on my ZHP control arms. They do not look as far on as yours are. They lined up relatively well with the bolt holes (though required some twisting), and that end nub thing is probably just a hair farther back than I see on yours. They refuse to go any further, even after lots of coaxing with a mallet and more soapy water. Think I'm okay? Will they eventually find their way to the right place as I drive if they aren't for some reason?

Steering is nice and tight.
there is an exact measurement that these are suppose to be on. you don't need to look at someone else's photo and guess. just measure, can't be any easier than that.
Alex323Ci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 08:58 PM   #73
Zell
Registered User
 
Zell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Such City
Posts: 5,732
My Ride: '02 Dogemobile Shibe
I didn't have a ruler I just did it the way I did my previous ones, and based that distance on what I saw in DIYs.
__________________
Zell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2012, 10:52 AM   #74
TerraPhantm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mountain Top
Posts: 5,942
My Ride: 2005 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by E46Mango View Post
What's there to "feel"? It's a solid piece of aluminum that provides wheel location and pivotal control via solid metal balljoints and a rubber bushing at the end. Since both a functioning ZHP arm and a Meyle arm would be solid, the only variation would be the bushing. And the bushing on the ZHP arm is not unique to the ZHP. It's a known fact that the Meyle bushing is relatively solid compared to the fluid-filled OE bushing. So essentially what you are saying is that the ZHP arm (equipped with OE bushings) has a softer feel than Meyle HD (equipped with Meyle HD bushings) as the bushings are the only variable.

Unless you took two brand new sets of control arms and installed them back to back on the same vehicle, I don't believe your claims of "better feel" to be justified.

BTW, if I had ZHP arms, I'd argue the same point. I don't play favorites. If you want to argue the ZHP arms are better quality, that's fine. You may have a point. But feel? I don't think so. Again. What exactly are you "feeling"?
Mango, I understand what you're saying, but I think you're not taking into account that the Meyles aren't actually a solid construction. The ball joints are pressed in, and with the amount of force generated while driving, that tiny bit of extra play very well can make a difference in steering feel. Not to mention there are different grades of aluminum with slightly varying qualities that can also have an effect. I don't think it's fair to write off the possibility of the ZHP arms feeling better without driving on them extensively. Better yet, commission a lab to test the two control arms so we can quantitatively discuss the differences

Regarding the bushings - I honestly felt the OE bushings to feel better than the Meyles. I don't know if I would call them stiffer, but they just felt better. I was really frustrated with the steering feel of my old ZHP until I switched back to a completely OE steering setup.
__________________
TerraPhantm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2012, 02:31 PM   #75
Stinger9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: New York
Posts: 7,862
My Ride: '04 330Ci
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
Mango, I understand what you're saying, but I think you're not taking into account that the Meyles aren't actually a solid construction. The ball joints are pressed in, and with the amount of force generated while driving, that tiny bit of extra play very well can make a difference in steering feel. Not to mention there are different grades of aluminum with slightly varying qualities that can also have an effect. I don't think it's fair to write off the possibility of the ZHP arms feeling better without driving on them extensively. Better yet, commission a lab to test the two control arms so we can quantitatively discuss the differences
Have you considered a career in government?
Commission a test-----------really??

"Play" in a pressed in bushing?-------------really??
Stinger9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2012, 02:59 PM   #76
TerraPhantm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mountain Top
Posts: 5,942
My Ride: 2005 M3 Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger9 View Post
Have you considered a career in government?
Commission a test-----------really??

"Play" in a pressed in bushing?-------------really??
Of course there's going to be some play. The fact that the ball joint and control arm can be separated in the Meyle units mean that there must be some play. I mean it'll be an extremely low amount, but again, with the forces exerted on a car at speed, there can be a detectable difference.

And my point was that without actual numbers to go by, everything here is speculation at best. So if you're going to argue that there's no possible way for one control arm to feel better than the other, you should back it up. Best way to get numbers is to have laboratory testing done, and unless you own one or operate the necessary equipment, you will have to commission a lab to do the testing.

You may think that the differences are small enough to not make a difference - but there's a reason BMW hires engineers to work on these kind of things. It's not like Lemfoerder doesn't know how to make control arms with replaceable ball joints. They're replaceable on many other BMWs, including the E36 M3 and E46 xi. But they chose to make them permanently attached in the case of the aluminum control arms found on the RWD E46s. There's probably a good reason for that, and it likely comes down to the characteristics under load. I would be willing to bet that such a design was required to keep the rigidity and weight within the specifications BMW called for.
__________________

Last edited by TerraPhantm; 09-03-2012 at 03:13 PM.
TerraPhantm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 10:44 PM   #77
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,827
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
Of course there's going to be some play. The fact that the ball joint and control arm can be separated in the Meyle units mean that there must be some play. I mean it'll be an extremely low amount, but again, with the forces exerted on a car at speed, there can be a detectable difference.

And my point was that without actual numbers to go by, everything here is speculation at best. So if you're going to argue that there's no possible way for one control arm to feel better than the other, you should back it up. Best way to get numbers is to have laboratory testing done, and unless you own one or operate the necessary equipment, you will have to commission a lab to do the testing.

You may think that the differences are small enough to not make a difference - but there's a reason BMW hires engineers to work on these kind of things. It's not like Lemfoerder doesn't know how to make control arms with replaceable ball joints. They're replaceable on many other BMWs, including the E36 M3 and E46 xi. But they chose to make them permanently attached in the case of the aluminum control arms found on the RWD E46s. There's probably a good reason for that, and it likely comes down to the characteristics under load. I would be willing to bet that such a design was required to keep the rigidity and weight within the specifications BMW called for.
Fair enough. I'm willing to consider your points. Now consider mine:

Did you know the E36 M3 Lemforder control arms have removable balljoints?



http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1545037

I'm not convinced that there's any play in a pressed ball joint. it has to be pressed for a reason. This would mean that there's play in wheel bearings too. I could be wrong. What do you say?
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 11:42 AM   #78
TerraPhantm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mountain Top
Posts: 5,942
My Ride: 2005 M3 Coupe
I did know that, in fact I said so in the post you quoted. The E36 arms are also made of steel, not aluminum (which is significantly softer than steel). My line of thought is that aluminum deforms a lot easier than steel, and thus BMW might feel it's beneficial to go the extra step to make the stronger. Or maybe BMW felt the act of actually removing the ball joints on an aluminum arm causes too much damage due to its softness. Or it just might be that BMW feels the aluminum is soft enough that it shouldn't be kept for more then 100k miles or whatever the design life of the ball joints is.

Last edited by TerraPhantm; 04-16-2013 at 11:44 AM.
TerraPhantm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 12:04 PM   #79
Mango
A full five stars, son
 
Mango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,827
My Ride: M54B30
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
I did know that, in fact I said so in the post you quoted. The E36 arms are also made of steel, not aluminum (which is significantly softer than steel). My line of thought is that aluminum deforms a lot easier than steel, and thus BMW might feel it's beneficial to go the extra step to make the stronger. Or maybe BMW felt the act of actually removing the ball joints on an aluminum arm causes too much damage due to its softness. Or it just might be that BMW feels the aluminum is soft enough that it shouldn't be kept for more then 100k miles or whatever the design life of the ball joints is.
Although the material itself is softer, there's more aluminum (bigger arms) to achieve the same strength as the steel-arm predecessors. All modern ///M and even non-///M BMWs use aluminum suspension components.

Point is there's no play in a solidly-mounted balljoint.
__________________
A lifetime free of problems if you follow my guides
Cooling | Maintenance | Suspension | Vacuum | Supreme Reliability | Details

OVER A MILLION VIEWS
Mango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 12:14 PM   #80
TerraPhantm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mountain Top
Posts: 5,942
My Ride: 2005 M3 Coupe
Well these ball joints are essentially interference fit, correct? Hence needing a 12 ton press to remove and install them. I would say it's plausible, that the aluminum deforms too much during that process to be reusable. Or maybe the number of uses is limited. Or the thermal expansion coefficients are different enough that BMW felt they were better off making them permanently attached for safety reasons, I don't know

Question: Has anyone actually tried removing the ball joints from a stock arm? I'm now reading that BMW doesn't sell replacement ball joints for the E36 M3 arms, and that people just use either Meyle or E30 ball joints instead.

Also want to note that E30 M3 arms are aluminum and also have non-replaceable ball joints


Last edited by TerraPhantm; 04-16-2013 at 12:21 PM.
TerraPhantm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use