bmw 323ci with stage 2 cams & supersprint

this is a great post - really enjoy my 323ci but thought i would have to move to something else to get more punch!
this changes my view on my econo 323. First thing is to find a local tuner to talk to.

I would start with a few bolt on's unless you plan on getting it retuned afterwards also. That could get pricey though.

Originally Posted by moranor

what % you using for loss... if i use 15% i get 348Nm

sorry , ive been following this topic , got a stock 323 myself ,
but 348 nm at the crank is not mpressive , just impossible , unles he put at least a 3 ltr or more in his 323 ,
torque at the crank is always close to 10% of the engine size ,for a n/a engine , no mather how it's tuned
2000 cc ; around 200 nm
2500 cc ; around 250 nm
3000 cc ; around 300 nm , for any n/a engine of course no matter how you tune it , if he's got a 2,5 making 348 nm , he has done something no other manufacturer or tuner can .

Originally Posted by rene323ci

sorry , ive been following this topic , got a stock 323 myself ,
but 348 nm at the crank is not mpressive , just impossible , unles he put at least a 3 ltr or more in his 323 ,
torque at the crank is always close to 10% of the engine size ,for a n/a engine , no mather how it's tuned
2000 cc ; around 200 nm
2500 cc ; around 250 nm
3000 cc ; around 300 nm , for any n/a engine of course no matter how you tune it , if he's got a 2,5 making 348 nm , he has done something no other manufacturer or tuner can .

ok then show me know to work it out i looked at plenty formulas to try find a way to work this out if you know a better way please share because i dont know a more accurate way to work it out unless i use the gear ratios and rolling diameter of the wheels to work it out...

I do find these figures quite mad, but if you look at the power figure its also inline with worked 330i specs...

maybe the op can run the car on another dyno so we can compare results...

I am certainly considering these cams on my car if i can get similar figures and am discussing them with my tuner at the moment if he thinks he can get similar figures i will pull the trigger and do it

Originally Posted by moranor

..........I am certainly considering these cams on my car if i can get similar figures and am discussing them with my tuner at the moment if he thinks he can get similar figures i will pull the trigger and do it

Unless you're REALLY prepared to drop some serious cash I wouldn't install 272/256 cams. Besides all the normal upgrades: 1) Headers 2) Cat-Back Exhaust 3) CAI, & so on, you'll need to install these extras. Start with an upgraded valve train, head porting isn't a must, but I'd certainly do it; last & most important, a true custom tune, not any kind of a "canned" tune. I love great N/A power, but it's quite costly.

So before you go forward, the first thing I'd do is locate a BMW tuner that can actually tune your ECU, or be prepared to buy a stand alone/piggy back at a cost of $2100 plus dollars.

Good luck.

EDIT: at the end of the day, it would be much cheaper to buy a complete E46 M3 motor with all the needed extras to make it work.

Originally Posted by Rob43

Unless you're REALLY prepared to drop some serious cash I wouldn't install 272/256 cams. Besides all the normal upgrades: 1) Headers 2) Cat-Back Exhaust 3) CAI, & so on, you'll need to install these extras. Start with an upgraded valve train, head porting isn't a must, but I'd certainly do it; last & most important, a true custom tune, not any kind of a "canned" tune. I love great N/A power, but it's quite costly.

So before you go forward, the first thing I'd do is locate a BMW tuner that can actually tune your ECU, or be prepared to buy a stand alone/piggy back at a cost of $2100 plus dollars.

Good luck.

EDIT: at the end of the day, it would be much cheaper to buy a complete E46 M3 motor with all the needed extras to make it work.

thanks for the advise
i spend most of my time on another forum so im quite a noob here

as my car stands now:
custom catless mandrel bent duel 57mm free flow with headers
custom CAI (similar to AFE)
e90 six speed gearbox with a 3.38 diff
think thats all as far as performance goes

as for tuning im lucky in that i live very close to the best bmw tuners in my country they hold all the bmw records for drag racing and quite a few international ones

these are the current times they have set:
E36 M3-Nasp 12.6 (2dr-3.0l)
E36 M3-Nasp 12.8 (4dr-3.2l)
E46 M3-Nasp 12.65 @ 170
E46 M3-Nasp 12.3 @ 184
E46 M3-Nos 11.9 @ 199
M5 V10-Nasp 11.7
M6 V10-Nasp 11.6
N54 335i- 11.9
M3 V8(Manual 4dr)- 12.3
M3 V8(DCT 4dr) Chip Logic Flash 12.4

I am confident that will do a good job tuning my car...

then there is the issue of cost...
i can get a custom tune for way less than you guys can get in the US because living costs are lower here and people can charge less the above work already done on my car cost me only cost me about $1750 including all parts and labor i am estimating fitting these cams and a tune will cost me about $2000 seeing as i was going to go with an AA SC its quite cheap...

the only issue is if i need to get more headwork done it might go over what i expect...

from what i have seen on this forum you seem to know quite a bit about this... i would appreciate any advise you have

i was under the impression that the OPs car gained so much because the ports were the same size as as the M54b30 so porting was not needed to take advantage of the cams because of the smaller displacement?

what other parts should be changed with the cams and should i be looking at Ti retainers and springs? the OP is looking at larger injectors? seems like a good idea if that much power is being made from the extra airflow...

Do you think this cam is too wild for a 2.5l would a 264/248 cam would yield much the same result with more low down torque?

my other concern is that this might be a BS dyno and the readings are not accurate... do you think these gains are realistic?

Sorry for the long post, but i think everyone who owns a 2.5l would really like to know how to get this out of their car and they would really appreciate the info

For starters it's not a bs dyno and I don't like been told I'm bs what u see is what I got there are no hidden secrets like the other op going on about the engine was a stock m52tu motor and still is stock besides cams and tune and exauhst and cai if u think it's bs come look for ur self I could show u guys a m52tu na motor pushing out 324hp but it will cost u 17000 for motor

My car comes from factory with 170 hp I'm getting just under 220 hp so if cams give u about 40 hp cai gives u about 10 hp and exauhst gives u about 20 hp my numbers that I am getting at the wheels are correct

shifty1982 im in no way accusing you of anything i just want to get my facts before i drop money on this i think the gains are awesome im just trying to confirm them and get as much info as possible so i dont run into problems later

I did not mean to offend im just looking for answers your numbers are very high for a 2.5l if i can get this without a SC i will be very happy... thats why im so interested in this but given that alot of dynos give strange readings and there is only one dyno of one car for me to look at... can you blame me for wanting to confirm the graph?

if it all looks good i will fit these cams and i will also post up my graph to validate your numbers

Fair enough but I have used one of the best tuners in Australia he has the worlds fastest evo and has won many more trophys look his site up its called pulse racing

Originally Posted by shifty1982

For starters it's not a bs dyno and I don't like been told I'm bs what u see is what I got there are no hidden secrets like the other op going on about the engine was a stock m52tu motor and still is stock besides cams and tune and exauhst and cai if u think it's bs come look for ur self I could show u guys a m52tu na motor pushing out 324hp but it will cost u 17000 for motor

im not sayingthat it is bs , the hp gains are possible , no doubt, just the nm going from 245 nm to 348 nm on a n/a engine is not possible ,even the 324 hp motor won't get that , not if it is n/a , but maybe something to do with the calculations ?
but as i see you went from 170 hp at the crank to 210 at the wheels or is that also crank hp ?

consider that my tuner said i should get between 275Nm and 295Nm at the crank with my current mods and his custom tune... he does not over estimate because it will make him look bad... i would expect at least 320Nm if i fitted cams which i will be happy with... if i get anywhere close to 350Nm i will be very very happy

The 170 hp is what I've read off Internet so not sure if at wheels or crank I think it might be crank I think it's about 150 140 hp at wheels stock

shifty can you confirm with your tuner if the dyno is at the wheels or crank? also see if he can give you the torque figure in Nm

Originally Posted by moranor

consider that my tuner said i should get between 275Nm and 295Nm at the crank with my current mods and his custom tune... he does not over estimate because it will make him look bad... i would expect at least 320Nm if i fitted cams which i will be happy with... if i get anywhere close to 350Nm i will be very very happy

im sure you'd be happy , i just don't think it is possible without increasing your engine size ,
even an m can't get that high torque , e90 m3 v8 420 hp 4000cc ; 400nm
any n/a engine is always close to 10 % of the engine size .

Well I should be going for a re tune within the next month I will ask him then need to see what these bigger injectors can really do

And I'm pretty sure it is at the wheels because that's where the dyno is taking measurement from

Originally Posted by rene323ci

im sure you'd be happy , i just don't think it is possible without increasing your engine size ,
even an m can't get that high torque , e90 m3 v8 420 hp 4000cc ; 400nm
any n/a engine is always close to 10 % of the engine size .

you right, but ether way i want to get to the bottom of this to make the right decision on my car...

Originally Posted by 323I00

So cams are worth It on the 323 series from what Im reading.

I wonder how that would play with Ebay headers ,full catback exhaust (no cats) ,cai ,Tms pulleys, and a Shark Injector.

im reading this thread and thinking the exact same thing. all id need is the cams and exhaust.

iirc, the OP never got a torque figure.
this 345Nm being thrown out iirc was calculated by someone on here reading the thread.
Could it have been a miscalculation?
I do not recal OP giving a torque figure at all, BUT from what i found with an online calculator. 345Nm is 254ft-lb. While thats high for a 2.5, it doesnt seem impossible since the 3.0 US spec E36 M3 made like 50 less (at the wheels). Considering the OPs exhaust and higher diff. It doesnt seem impossible. But thats just my opinion.

Plus maybe the calculation is giving torque at the crank, while we have whp.