E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Gun Talk

Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-04-2011, 10:51 AM   #1
Reedo302
Registered User
 
Reedo302's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 7,680
My Ride: F30 328i M Sport
EPIC FAIL - Tex Grebner NDs Himself

I don't know if anyone here has had the displeasure of running across the Tex Grebner Outdoors channel on YouTube, but this fvcktard is full of comedic gold for how dumb he is. Anyways, here's the video of him shooting himself with his Kimber while using a Serpa holster.



Quote:
"After the shot went off, my training took over. I called my parents to let them know what had happened..."
Probably standard procedure when you live in Mom's basement and you use her garage for your secret fort.


What he tells you is that the safety went off, but then the gun got stuck in the trigger lock mechanism and his finger slid onto the trigger. Anyone who owns or has used a Serpa knows that this is impossible. If the gun does not unlock from the trigger guard lock, it will not move. If you watch the video, he's got the gun well clear of the holster when he NDs himself. You can also see that his trigger finger goes directly into the trigger guard upon clearing the holster.

Unfortunately, this continues to be an issue with Serpa holsters and stupid people. Serpas are not the safest holsters in the world, but they're called NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES for a reason. FrontSight training academy in Nevada has banned Serpas because they've had too many people ND while using them. The most recent was a guy who had to get airlifted out after shooting himself in the leg. Further proof that novices and idiots should not be using these holsters. Not a problem if you keep your finger indexed, but people continuously go for the trigger as soon as it's out of the holster.

I'm no longer a fan of Serpas, but stuff like this certainly isn't Blackhawk's fault. User error is obvious in this case.
But what else would you expect from a turd who makes a video bragging about having 16hrs of training and a CERTIFICATE to make him an expert?


__________________



Gunfighter Training Development and Evaluation
AR15/AR10 Armorer/Advanced Armorer
Glock Armorer


Gunfighter Training YouTube Channel

Last edited by Reedo302; 07-04-2011 at 10:52 AM.
Reedo302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 10:55 AM   #2
JonJon
Tinfoilhatatarian
 
JonJon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: One of the most evil states ever to exist
Posts: 3,465
My Ride: .
Send a message via AIM to JonJon
Lol

At least people are finally calling it what it really is. A ND not an AD
__________________
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
I agree with JonJon.
JonJon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 11:00 AM   #3
Reedo302
Registered User
 
Reedo302's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 7,680
My Ride: F30 328i M Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJon View Post
Lol

At least people are finally calling it what it really is. A ND not an AD

I got rid of that term many years back after watching people pop off rounds out of their M16s as the result of poor discipline with keeping their booger hooks off the trigger.
I've heard some people try and call them "UDs" for Unintended Discharges, but I think that's playing it off too lightly and not being responsible about it.

ND is the best descriptor, especially in this case with this assbag.
__________________



Gunfighter Training Development and Evaluation
AR15/AR10 Armorer/Advanced Armorer
Glock Armorer


Gunfighter Training YouTube Channel

Last edited by Reedo302; 07-04-2011 at 11:02 AM.
Reedo302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 11:44 AM   #4
Serbonze
Master of his domain.
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,022
My Ride: My wife.
That guy is a toolbox. My first OWB holster was a Serpa. I stopped using it though after reading about the NDs. The final straw was my defensive handgun instructor not allowing them in class.

I'm still looking for a replacement for future classes (defensive carbine and additional defensive handgun). I've been looking at CompTac as a replacement.
__________________
Serbonze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 12:24 PM   #5
JonJon
Tinfoilhatatarian
 
JonJon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: One of the most evil states ever to exist
Posts: 3,465
My Ride: .
Send a message via AIM to JonJon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post

I got rid of that term many years back after watching people pop off rounds out of their M16s as the result of poor discipline with keeping their booger hooks off the trigger.
I've heard some people try and call them "UDs" for Unintended Discharges, but I think that's playing it off too lightly and not being responsible about it.

ND is the best descriptor, especially in this case with this assbag.
Lol. REEDO: thanks for posting this again. I checked out some of his other videos. Wow.


As you said, he clearly cleared the weapon from the holster with his finger indexed (as serpas are designed) then he curls his finger into the trigger guard and pulls the trigger while still pointing down into his leg. I guess his intention was to shave .0000000001 off of his shot time or something.

He then goes to blame everything except the real issue. Keep your booger hook off the bang switch until on target and ready to shoot.
__________________
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
I agree with JonJon.
JonJon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 12:37 PM   #6
Fisch330ciTopasBlau
Yes...I do think I hate you
 
Fisch330ciTopasBlau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 1,751
My Ride: A car.
So why are Serpa's getting banned? What is it about Serpa's design that seem to promote these ND's?
__________________

-8/21/2007 RIP Grandma
-pessimum genus inimicorum laudantes: flatterers are the worst type of enemies
Fisch330ciTopasBlau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 12:52 PM   #7
JonJon
Tinfoilhatatarian
 
JonJon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: One of the most evil states ever to exist
Posts: 3,465
My Ride: .
Send a message via AIM to JonJon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisch330ciTopasBlau View Post
So why are Serpa's getting banned? What is it about Serpa's design that seem to promote these ND's?
Personally, I feel it's a training issue, not a problem with the holster or anything mechanical. People exercise very poor finger indexing and trigger discipline.

It's like getting dressed too fast, putting both legs into one pant leg, falling over and them blaming Levi for poor jean design
__________________
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
I agree with JonJon.

Last edited by JonJon; 07-04-2011 at 12:53 PM.
JonJon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 02:32 PM   #8
Serbonze
Master of his domain.
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,022
My Ride: My wife.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisch330ciTopasBlau View Post
So why are Serpa's getting banned? What is it about Serpa's design that seem to promote these ND's?
They lock the pistol into the holster. In order to draw, you need to press down on a tab with your index finger. People getting too anxious or excited are continuing that pushing movement into the trigger guard and are then pulling the trigger.
__________________
Serbonze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 02:34 PM   #9
Reedo302
Registered User
 
Reedo302's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 7,680
My Ride: F30 328i M Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbonze View Post
I'm still looking for a replacement for future classes (defensive carbine and additional defensive handgun). I've been looking at CompTac as a replacement.
CompTacs are good replacements, but if I were you, I'd start looking into a proper tactical holster. Drop-leg holsters are a great way to go. Most people shy away from them because they don't understand how to wear them correctly, and they wind up hanging down just above the knee. The proper way to wear them is to cinch it up so that the stop strap is just below the groin, so that the gun sits firmly on the side of the thigh just below the hip. This way, you can grab the pistol and draw it without leaning over to the side. They wind up sitting just slightly below the line where a low-ride/drop belt holster would position the gun.
IMO, this provides a better and more natural draw-stroke. I carry a low-ride Safariland ALS 6365 holster for work, as I find that having a gun that sits lower does allow me more movement at the waist and also has a more natural draw stroke. For training I use a Safariland ALS 6305 drop-leg/thigh holster.
If you still prefer OWB belt holsters, there are options.
Standard Kydex holsters like Fobus and Uncle Mike's work fine for everyday range use and some training, but ultimately they are pretty basic and eventually you will want to go to something more rugged and durable. The Comp-Tac holsters are pretty durable and fit this bill nicely, but I like the more molded designs of the custom Kydex makes, such as those from Raven Concealment. If you search around on gun forums, you'll come across lots of people that make similar custom Kydex holsters for less and with only a week or two lead-time instead of 3-4 months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJon View Post
Lol. REEDO: thanks for posting this again. I checked out some of his other videos. Wow.
Yeah, a real mental giant, that one. It's good for some laughs, but that's about it. It's amazing how some people try to pass themselves off as what I call "paper experts", but it's even more sad that people take them seriously.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisch330ciTopasBlau View Post
So why are Serpa's getting banned? What is it about Serpa's design that seem to promote these ND's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJon View Post
Personally, I feel it's a training issue, not a problem with the holster or anything mechanical. People exercise very poor finger indexing and trigger discipline.

It's like getting dressed too fast, putting both legs into one pant leg, falling over and them blaming Levi for poor jean design
I think it's a mix of multiple things. I certain believe it's primarily a training issue. Most of this rests on the fault of the shooters. If you've ever been to a low-level basic or intermediate shooting course, you will see a lot of students show up with new gear or stuff that has been barely used. Most people will buy something and then do about 20 practice draws in front of the TV and then call it quits until the training course. This is common with not only your average Earth people, but with .le, .gov and .mil people as well. I've seen officers get new holsters shipped to the PD, then slap them on their duty belts and go right out onto the road. They don't practice and do multiple draws before shift, and they don't take it home to practice. Come qual time, they fumble their draws a lot.

Another issue comes in with the training groups/academies. Many of these organizations have basic courses where most of the students literally have ZERO experience with shooting or handguns. I've heard stories of people that have gone to FrontSight and had people next to them on the line literally ask them "how do I work this gun?". The novices got their holster from someone else, or went to the gunshop and bought what they were told to buy by the salesman, and they have no idea how to work the holster. With a normal straight-pull holster like your typical Kydex holster, this isn't a huge issue. However, then you add in a more complex motor movement that requires some actual brain power and also requires you to multi-task (things like the Serpa holster and the trigger guard locking mechanism), and you add in a whole new dynamic that people are not prepared for or mentally capable of performing. In stress, people lose the ability to multi-task, and they get even the least bit excited or distracted and their finger goes right into that trigger guard.
My issue with this is that these mass-production academies blame the holster entirely because they don't want to blame the shooter and look bad and possibly lose business. They also don't want to accept the possibility that they as the business are partially at fault for lack of adequate training of that student. This is often due to the fact that probably 50-60% of instructors are not qualified to be instructors. FrontSight for example, a majority of the instructors are just average everyday people who have taken so many courses from that academy that they now know how to teach the curriculum. They just have no capability to teach practical use from experience. So, to combat this they ban the Serpa holsters for safety reasons. This is not an entirely bad idea when you are dealing with novices, however.
The more professional and higher-end groups and academies ban the Serpa because of reliability issues related to the trigger guard mechanism. The mechanism is known to jam and lock shut when it gets dirty. Rolling around in the dirt or snow can cause this, and it's been well-documented. Once I had it happen to me in training, my Serpa immediately came off my belt and I got a Safariland.

The design is an issue that's also there. However, it's a fatal design flaw for novices. I've done literally thousands of draw strokes with a Serpa and never once had a ND. The problem is that novices don't train much, so they do wind up not properly performing the necessary draw stroke. To draw a Serpa correctly, you grab the frame grip, then you use your index finger to depress the lever. Then you start to pull up on the gun. As soon as you know that gun is clear of the lock mechanism, you need to lift/slide your finger slightly forward and upward so that when you clear the holster, the finger will come to a rest on the upper portion of the frame above the trigger guard. As Serbonze pointed out, people have a tendency to keep pushing their index finger inward during the draw stroke. You can't just keep pushing or otherwise even relax your finger; you have to consciously straighten and stiffen your finger once you release that lock and sweep it out of the way.
The design makes it easier for you to inadvertently put your finger into that trigger guard, so technically it could be considered a fatal design flaw.
__________________



Gunfighter Training Development and Evaluation
AR15/AR10 Armorer/Advanced Armorer
Glock Armorer


Gunfighter Training YouTube Channel

Last edited by Reedo302; 07-04-2011 at 02:35 PM.
Reedo302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 02:54 PM   #10
Fisch330ciTopasBlau
Yes...I do think I hate you
 
Fisch330ciTopasBlau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 1,751
My Ride: A car.
Ahh, that's how they work. I've never messed around with one.

shift the locking mechanism to a lever actuated by the ring or pinky maybe.
__________________

-8/21/2007 RIP Grandma
-pessimum genus inimicorum laudantes: flatterers are the worst type of enemies
Fisch330ciTopasBlau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 06:26 PM   #11
Reedo302
Registered User
 
Reedo302's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 7,680
My Ride: F30 328i M Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisch330ciTopasBlau View Post
Ahh, that's how they work. I've never messed around with one.

shift the locking mechanism to a lever actuated by the ring or pinky maybe.
I would still be worried about sympathetic motor movement from the index finger. Also, when you draw you can feel how much pull and control you get from your middle finger. I would not want to lose that control during the draw stroke.
If you want a composite holster with a mechanical retention device, my preference would be the Safariland ALS in some configuration. Get it in a matte black or else a Tan or Green finish.
If you want something a little more affordable, I would recommend looking into the 5.11/BladeTech ThumbDrive holster. Price is comparable to a Serpa, but the release works by pushing a button down with your thumb.
I think the thumb release is the safest and most consistent.
__________________



Gunfighter Training Development and Evaluation
AR15/AR10 Armorer/Advanced Armorer
Glock Armorer


Gunfighter Training YouTube Channel

Last edited by Reedo302; 07-04-2011 at 06:36 PM.
Reedo302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 07:24 PM   #12
Rush4theYehO
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,368
My Ride: XI fts(now)
I'm not a fan of Serpa holsters in the least. Reedo's already proven why. Pretty much no civilians have need to locking retention, and if you're a cop carrying on duty, there are much better retention/lcoking methods.


Tex grebner is a dumbass. I cannot stand that guy. Redneck tactical. Worse than nutnfancy.
Rush4theYehO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 09:18 PM   #13
GlockMan
Registered User
 
GlockMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,939
My Ride: Suburban LT 4x4
wow
__________________
.
!!! ROLL TIDE ROLL !!!
National Champions: 1925, 1926, 1930, 1934, 1941, 1961, 1964, 1965, 1973, 1978, 1979, 1992, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2014?



Ranting about Panny plasmas, Canon cameras, Glocks, BlueNile, and HDMI cables on a BMW board since 2005.

2007 Chevy Suburban LT 4x4 with Nav/Bose/DVD/JL (works for me)
1968 Ford Mustang with Polk/ADS (my first car)

2007 Lexus GS350 with every option
2000 BMW DINAN M5
2001 BMW 330ci
GlockMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 09:23 PM   #14
JonJon
Tinfoilhatatarian
 
JonJon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: One of the most evil states ever to exist
Posts: 3,465
My Ride: .
Send a message via AIM to JonJon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush4theYehO View Post
Pretty much no civilians have need to locking retention.
Lol wut?
__________________
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
I agree with JonJon.
JonJon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 12:34 AM   #15
Rush4theYehO
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,368
My Ride: XI fts(now)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJon View Post
Lol wut?


Not even sure what I was talking about.
Rush4theYehO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 02:01 AM   #16
Reedo302
Registered User
 
Reedo302's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 7,680
My Ride: F30 328i M Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush4theYehO View Post
I'm not a fan of Serpa holsters in the least. Reedo's already proven why. Pretty much no civilians have need to locking retention, and if you're a cop carrying on duty, there are much better retention/lcoking methods.


Tex grebner is a dumbass. I cannot stand that guy. Redneck tactical. Worse than nutnfancy.
I'm not a big fan of Nutnfancy, and I do have some disagreements with some of his philosophies, but he's doing his own thing and not hurting anyone so I sort of started laying off of my criticisms. Then I saw the Tex Grebner rant about the AK, and all of a sudden I began to support Nutnfancy just because Tex hates him. That's how low I think of Tex.

As for the locking retention, I wouldn't necessarily agree that civilians don't need it. I just don't think most common holsters readily available on the market make good carry holsters. With most polymer holsters, I can take the gun away from you without ever getting it out of the holster. Most kydex paddle and belt-slide holsters have weak connection points and can break pretty easily with downward and forward rotational pressure.








This is another reason why I stopped carrying a Serpa for on-duty use in plain-clothes.

The more heavy-duty kydex designs are more rugged and durable. And FWIW, you can't do that to leather. Leather is by far the best overall for carrying. Such is why you see people using leather with kydex holsters- it is just such a good material to use that can take any abuse.
Food for thought for our viewers out there.
__________________



Gunfighter Training Development and Evaluation
AR15/AR10 Armorer/Advanced Armorer
Glock Armorer


Gunfighter Training YouTube Channel
Reedo302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 11:11 PM   #17
Five_seveN
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: chicago
Posts: 24,545
My Ride: rover james
Send a message via AIM to Five_seveN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
You can also see that his trigger finger goes directly into the trigger guard upon clearing the holster.
lol thats the first thing i noticed his explanation is quite pathetic too when you can plainly see his finger was in the guard before on target
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by hummer View Post
Once burned, I would never give BMW a second chance.
Five_seveN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 01:24 AM   #18
Reedo302
Registered User
 
Reedo302's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 7,680
My Ride: F30 328i M Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Five_seveN View Post
lol thats the first thing i noticed his explanation is quite pathetic too when you can plainly see his finger was in the guard before on target
He's clearly trying to show off for the camera for his show and to make himself look good. From all that I've seen with his show and his stupid videos, it's all based around him trying to convince people that he's an expert on everything and everyone else knows nothing compared to him. Ultimately, I think Jon Jon hit the nail on the head with his comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Jon
I guess his intention was to shave .0000000001 off of his shot time or something.

Here's a good/funny video ripping on Tex:

__________________



Gunfighter Training Development and Evaluation
AR15/AR10 Armorer/Advanced Armorer
Glock Armorer


Gunfighter Training YouTube Channel

Last edited by Reedo302; 07-06-2011 at 01:29 AM.
Reedo302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2011, 01:42 AM   #19
Five_seveN
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: chicago
Posts: 24,545
My Ride: rover james
Send a message via AIM to Five_seveN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
He's clearly trying to show off for the camera for his show and to make himself look good. From all that I've seen with his show and his stupid videos, it's all based around him trying to convince people that he's an expert on everything and everyone else knows nothing compared to him. Ultimately, I think Jon Jon hit the nail on the head with his comment:




Here's a good/funny video ripping on Tex:

maybe its because im not as technically into it as experienced shooters, but i think the most impressive thing you can do with a weapon is practice good safety why try tackling speed shooting drills if the fundamentals of carry/draw arent mastered? its a different scenario if he had all the bragging credentials he lists but then theres an equipment malfunction of some sort, but thats plainly not the case here. what an idiot
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by hummer View Post
Once burned, I would never give BMW a second chance.
Five_seveN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2011, 09:11 AM   #20
speedcrazy1532
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 721
My Ride: is over
I personally think both of these guys are just total tools. The fact that they both have youtube channels etc just makes me automatically think they love the spotlight. Guns and video REALLY don't go together IMHO. Keep your focus downrange and your mouth shut and ND's are alot less likely to happen.
__________________

-Phil
speedcrazy1532 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is OFF





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use