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Old 08-04-2011, 05:42 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Penguin Koolaid View Post
If I threw out terms like confidence intervals, manovs, t-tests, regressions or p-values it would likely sound foreign to you.
I actually have to brush up on my statistics for school, so if you want to throw some of those terms out, I could actually use the refresher (serious, no sarcasm)
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Old 08-04-2011, 05:47 PM   #82
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Racist conservative
This.
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Old 08-04-2011, 05:50 PM   #83
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This.
*pat on the head* relax little chivo, the adults are talking
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Old 08-04-2011, 06:01 PM   #84
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what's sad is that all the morons who don't believe in climate change or energy independence or sustainable living will do nothing about it and by the mere fact that they are a part of a society, which includes people who do give a **** about these issues and are working towards solving them will be saved as a byproduct.

if you want to talk about welfare and people mooching off of the hardworking.
This is ridiculous. Any levels of "individual effort" you are making (unless you are the climate change mother teresa) are going to be so negligible. You really think buying a 330i (note, not a prius), wearing hemp clothing, or claiming you believe in climate change will make a difference? Really?

And any action taken by you or others who believe they are making a difference will be decimated by corporations worldwide, in particular in industrial countries like China and Japan that are pouring infinitely more pollution into the air than your typical American company.

So continue on with your arrogant remarks and mock those who don't believe in the Al Gore presentation of climate change. Are we "impacting the atmosphere?" absolutely. Is ANYTHING you as an individual have or will do about it going to make a difference... not in the least. But continue blasting others... realllllll cool.

Oh, and I love how not believing in politically presented climate change automatically implies that I have no interest in the implementation of SOME regulations that assist with building a more sustainable country... I'm also against energy independence... Who knew!???

You can support environmentalism and energy independence without believing in climate change. Why is it you always have to make these ridiculous assumptions?
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Old 08-04-2011, 07:30 PM   #85
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Excellent banter here, most entertaining. I guess, if you assume everyone in the country falls neatly into the profiles represented here, either liberal, athiest, global warming believer, or conservative, religious believer, global warming denier, I'm some sort of weird anomoly. But in fact I think I represent the majority, who are otherwise not represented here.

I am financially conservative, and lean toward being politically conservative. I believe in God, and am a Christian (don't bother to challenge me on that, belief systems of all sorts are based on faith because perfect knowledge is impossible). Conversely, I believe that evolution shaped the variety of life on earth (I am not a fundamentalist Christian, therefore). It is possible that all of the laws of physics and the mechanisms of evolution were set up intentionally, by a creator, and I suspect that they were, but that does not mean that the pursuit of knowledge, which equals the pusuit of truth, should be dismissed. It is our moral obligation to future generations to increase the knowledge base fo mankind. As for climate change, I strongly suspect the current theories are largely correct, and it would be foolish to ignore the possibility, the probability, that humans are indeed affecting the climate. Perhaps we are not, but we should not assume we are not and hope for the best. We have to act on a preponderance of the evidence.

The problem is in the politicization of the issue. It seems to me that rigid adherance to political ideology is an impedement to progress. Government should not be looked upon as the only way to address the problem, but government should be considered as a potential mechanism to address the problem. But when you have an issue such as this, which involves so many difficult compromises, you must shelve strict ideology in favor of pragmatism. It seems the fundamental issue is that pollution of any sort has a cost to society, but that cost is not captured in the mechanism of commerce and accounted for in the price of goods and services. To address an issue caused by pollution, a method must be constructed to capture that cost and assign it appropriately. Costs not captured and accounted for become part of the overall debt, and will lead to degradation of living standards one way or another, otherwise they are not really costs. And it is quite clear that pollution has a cost. It may be illness, degradation of the environment, damage to our ability to produce certain foods such as seafood, or some other real cost. And we all pay for it.

Conservatives argue against government intervention almost reflexively. Often times, they are right. If there is a free-market mechanism that can be employed to address an imbalance, then that is usually the best method. But when there is no market mechanism, such as with pollution, how else do you address it? What options are at our disposal? Government has a role in preventing one from taking unfair advantage of another. It seems to me, this is one of those situations.

Can we afford to address this problem now, with the global economy about to go through meltdown? Probably not. Adding the burden of more regulation on commerce would almost certainly do major harm. Additionally, we cannot force other developing countries to address the problem. Capturing the cost, while the most logical solution from a ideological perspective, is not viable. The only other option we have is to find a technological solution, some way to counter the warming, or capture the pollutants. I think that, instead of debating whether or not global warming is man-made, we should focus on scientific ways to mitigate it. Political methods would increase the cost of everything for everybody, and there is legitimacy to the argument that governmental power would be increased too much by new regulations (perhaps if we could get influence peddling and money out of government we could once again trust government, but that's another issue). It may require government grants for research, but that is a far sight less expensive than regulations. I would hope that we as a society are adult enough to recognize compromise is essential, and strict rejection of either governmental intervention or free market forces is counterproductive.

Well, that's my incoherent ramble. Carry on.

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Old 08-04-2011, 11:56 PM   #86
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dkrab, I you
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Old 08-05-2011, 12:17 AM   #87
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dkrab, I you
You love him yet he basically said he doesn't believe in any of the same things you do? He said climate change is caused by humans and the theory is correct, and he said he hates the way things are politicized about issues like this, which is what you pretty much do in every thread. Not sure why the love...
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:24 AM   #88
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You love him yet he basically said he doesn't believe in any of the same things you do? He said climate change is caused by humans and the theory is correct, and he said he hates the way things are politicized about issues like this, which is what you pretty much do in every thread. Not sure why the love...
He said, and I quote,
Quote:
I strongly suspect the current theories are largely correct, and it would be foolish to ignore the possibility, the probability, that humans are indeed affecting the climate. Perhaps we are not, but we should not assume we are not and hope for the best. We have to act on a preponderance of the evidence.
I have acknowledged, and done so in this very thread, that humans impact the climate. I have stated that it is worthwhile for us to pursue those technologies and policies which will better our "sustainability" as a country and a planet. What I have dismissed is the politicized, over hyped, Al Gore presented version of climate change in which we are heading towards an impending doom as a result of the pollution we are spewing into the air. There is a very large difference between those two beliefs. So, in that sense, I agree with dkrab... The problem is, others are too busy blasting personal volleys to actually read into the rather carefully chosen words with which I have expressed these views.

Al Gore is full of sh*t and has made bank off the suckers of the universe who bought into the "climate change" business that he is running. Had cap & trade been passed, not only would our economy further nosedive, but he would have made billions off the legislation (look up chicago carbon exchange.. .it will blow your mind and fully remove any beliefs that Gore was sincere or honest in his presentation).

And regardless of all that, I appreciate an individual who is able to jot their words down and present intelligent discourse. The above post is extremely well written and is free of hostility, insult, or the other typical characteristics of an individual posting in the political section.
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:53 AM   #89
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You and Al Gore need to get a room. You're the only one in this thread bringing him up, and you've done so in almost every post you've made. This is not about one person whom you may or may not like. It's about facts and data. Which you continue to ignore.
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:54 AM   #90
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One point I was hoping to make is that the politizing of the issue leads to broad-brushed condemnation, to the detriment of overall understanding. So, the right dismisses the possibility that climate change, global warming, whatever the name is for the moment, may be anthropogenic, because someone on the left is trying to use the issue for personal gain or to expand the role of government. Maybe that is true, but that does not mean that man made global warming is a hoax. You impune the character of these people, perhaps rightly so, but that is all a sideshow. An unfortunate sideshow, to say the least. The left is also guilty this of type of reaction; for example, broadly stating that, in general, Republicans are for making the rich richer and screwing the poor. No doubt, some are trying to manipulate things to that end. But that does not mean the argument for fundamental conservative principles are without merit. This all brings emotional responses into the discourse on scientific or otherwise quantifiable issues, which is unfortunate.

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Old 08-05-2011, 11:13 AM   #91
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One point I was hoping to make is that the politizing of the issue leads to broad-brushed condemnation, to the detriment of overall understanding. So, the right dismisses the possibility that climate change, global warming, whatever the name is for the moment, may be anthropogenic, because someone on the left is trying to use the issue for personal gain or to expand the role of government. Maybe that is true, but that does not mean that man made global warming is a hoax. You impune the character of these people, perhaps rightly so, but that is all a sideshow. An unfortunate sideshow, to say the least. The left is also guilty this of type of reaction; for example, broadly stating that, in general, Republicans are for making the rich richer and screwing the poor. No doubt, some are trying to manipulate things to that end. But that does not mean the argument for fundamental conservative principles are without merit. This all brings emotional responses into the discourse on scientific or otherwise quantifiable issues, which is unfortunate.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
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Old 08-05-2011, 12:33 PM   #92
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This all brings emotional responses into the discourse on scientific or otherwise quantifiable issues, which is unfortunate.
Unfortunately the average American lacks the knowledge, desire, or will, to reason and use logic. That's why political advertising has become such a big business.

It really doesn't cost millions upon millions of dollars to tour the country and stump. The majority of the money is used for political propaganda.

If you want to solve the problem, you have to reform how money can be accepted and spent in politics.
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:30 PM   #93
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Agreed, money in politics is corrupting. I have heard complaints about the curtailing of such influence peddling as an infringement on the freedom of speech, but free speech sure is expensive these days.

But, we're wandering off topic. Now that U.S. debt has been downgraded to AA+ by Standard and Poor, we are even less able to affect a regulatory solution to this issue of global warming. Cap and trade is designed around free-market concepts in that it attempts to make reductions of carbon emissions profitable, but there is really no way to make reductions cost-free. Capturing here to fore unaccounted for costs can't but help to increase the cost of doing business, and the cost of goods and services. We're in no position to exercise that option right now. As unattractive as it may seem right now, given the situation in Japan, it seems to me that we must ramp up the use of nuclear power. I believe the danger of nuclear power, while real, has been exaggerated by the emotional impact the catastrophe in Japan has brought forth, but a clear, scientific assessment of risks and reward would reveal nuclear power to be a reasonable alternative. Changes in the law need to be considered that would make it less expensive to build and operate a nuclear power plant, and exploration of new nuclear technology should be encouraged. We all want the perfect solution, but perfection does not exist. We'll have to compromise. We have no choice.
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:37 PM   #94
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I agree with this wholeheartedly.
Thanks. I respect your debating skills. Even on issues with which I disagree with you, I am always impressed with your ability to form reasoned arguments. I wish I had more time to engage in debates, perhaps I could get better at it.

There are others here that are excellent debaters. It's entertaining to lurk around and read. Even those that are not so skilled can have valid points, but have trouble putting them into tight, waterproof arguments. I fall into that category. I'd engage more here, but life is very busy for me at this point in the journey, and I don't see it changing any time soon. I have things to do right now, that I should be doing right now, but I am not. So, off I go.

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Old 08-06-2011, 12:12 AM   #95
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if you don't believe that human activity is contributing to a change in the earth's climate, you are an idiot. simple as that.
1 volcano does more polluting than we do. Just sayin.
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:59 AM   #96
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1 volcano does more polluting than we do. Just sayin.
And one cow more than a range rover...
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Old 08-06-2011, 02:52 AM   #97
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1 volcano does more polluting than we do. Just sayin.
Totally untrue:
" Our studies show that globally, volcanoes on land and under the sea release a total of about 200 million tonnes of CO2 annually. This seems like a huge amount of CO2, but a visit to the U.S. Department of Energy's Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (CDIAC) website (http://cdiac.ornl.gov/) helps anyone armed with a handheld calculator and a high school chemistry text put the volcanic CO2 tally into perspective. Because while 200 million tonnes of CO2 is large, the global fossil fuel CO2 emissions for 2003 tipped the scales at 26.8 billion tonnes. Thus, not only does volcanic CO2 not dwarf that of human activity, it actually comprises less than 1 percent of that value."


http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2007/07_02_15.html


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And one cow more than a range rover...
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Old 08-06-2011, 08:15 AM   #98
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If you want to solve the problem, you have to reform how money can be accepted and spent in politics.
Now THAT would be change I can believe in. How about public funding for all federal elections only? How about only allowing individual limited contributions? There are so many ways you could make the change, if one were so inclined.

I am so inclined.
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Old 08-06-2011, 10:47 AM   #99
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Now THAT would be change I can believe in. How about public funding for all federal elections only? How about only allowing individual limited contributions? There are so many ways you could make the change, if one were so inclined.

I am so inclined.
I think this might be a point that everyone on this forum would agree with. Now if I really wanted to stir the pot, I would mention which party is the one fighting against this... (hint: citizens united and the supreme court) Not saying the other party is doing much else to advance this agenda.
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Old 08-06-2011, 05:01 PM   #100
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Now if I really wanted to stir the pot, I would mention which party is the one fighting against this... (hint: citizens united and the supreme court) Not saying the other party is doing much else to advance this agenda.
Both parties are guilty, but it does seem like one is doing it's best to open the flood gates through the courts. It's a two way street though, both parties win. It's the election process that losses.

I imagine after this whole debt ceiling debacle with the Tea Party, some of that big corporate money may be rethinking who it supports this next election. It might razz up the conservative base, but I bet there were a few executives not real happy with the shenanigans.

Seeing how almost EVERYONE can agree that money in politics is a problem. It's funny how the one thing everyone can agree on doesn't create the loudest noise. Like I said, nothing will ever get fixed in our Government until we fix the nature of money in politics. Both parties love the money and know that as long as they keep us at each others throats, we won't speak out against the one thing we can all agree on.
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