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Old 09-25-2012, 01:29 PM   #101
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Read it again, I am saying that you didn't reply to MY post AT ALL, but got all excited and cheerful when somebody else posted those pictures.
Because after 6 pages, you keep trying to make the same argument. It's done. Over with. No need to respond anymore. The next time I respond (if I do) will be when I post pictures of my steering rack label.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:38 PM   #102
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I did not cut and run Alex. Mango- get my name right bud. I know you know what it is.

At the risk of being cliché, I have things to do in my life outside of bicker with you guys over a topic that has been beaten to death a number of times.

Here's what I see:

- Part numbers (from BMW) are the same. This has been proven multiple times. Not even Sean disagrees with you Mango, but you continue to shove it down his (and everyone elses) throats.
- ZF serial numbers haven't been dissected for a pattern- maybe there is something there. Probably not.
- Apparently there is proof that the lock to lock, etc. is the same based on people measuring it first hand. I have not seen any proof of this.
- ZHP owners, and some who've owned both a ZHP and a ZSP 330, some even with upgraded CAs(!) say they do not feel the same!
- Alex and Mango have no first hand, objective experience to dispute this, so they proceed to rip this large amount of people apart based on part number research. Part numbers are great, but you've got a substantial number of people with more in-person experience than you who disagree. They are so convinced that even with part number research, they will not be convinced. This tends to indicate that there may actually be a difference between the racks.
- Those who swap racks or have/had both a ZHP and a 330 do not concede to Alex or Mango, but tire of the bickering and leave whichever thread got blown up to begin with.

I only posted this because Alex insisted.

Last edited by Grande D; 09-30-2012 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:57 PM   #103
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I did not cut and run Alex.
Here's what I see:
- Part numbers (from BMW) are the same. This has been proven multiple times. Not even Sean disagrees with you Mango, but you continue to shove it down his (and everyone elses) throats.
- ZF serial numbers haven't been dissected for a pattern- maybe there is something there. Probably not.
- Apparently there is proof that the lock to lock, etc. is the same based on people measuring it first hand. I have not seen any proof of this.
- ZHP owners, and some who've owned both a ZHP and a ZSP 330, some even with upgraded CAs say they do not feel the same!
- Part numbers are great, but you've got a substantial number of people with more in-person experience than you who disagree. They are so convinced that even with part number research, they will not be convinced. This tends to indicate that there may actually be a difference between the racks.
Find me some of these "substantial number of people" you say are out there still. There isn't, not even on the forum dedicated to the ZHP are they with you.
The video of the lock-to-lock are posted. If you're going to make a stand and insist something, it's wise to have all the info presented to you. Not ignore the stuff you don't like.

C'mon man... I used to think you were about getting the correct info out. Even rather logical than most when given information. You are going against everything logical presented. this is not me and one other stating the findings of this. this is everyone with maybe one or two hold outs. and i bet they have not even close to the knowledge of BMWs and specifically the E46 to what i know. i don't need to be right, but do my best to present the information gathered for the E46 community. look at all the proof presented. what's your rebuttal to it all....not one bit of proof or fact. your only thing is that some say it "feels" different and we must be wrong.(we even asked you to help your case and do somethings and yet you chose not to or refuse to post the results.)

*thanks for the reply. so everyone knows i asked him to reply and thus why it's bumped. i did not however expect the denial stage still
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:21 PM   #104
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Find me some of these "substantial number of people" you say are out there still. There isn't, not even on the forum dedicated to the ZHP are they with you.
The video of the lock-to-lock are posted. If you're going to make a stand and insist something, it's wise to have all the info presented to you. Not ignore the stuff you don't like.

C'mon man... I used to think you were about getting the correct info out. Even rather logical than most when given information. You are going against everything logical presented. this is not me and one other stating the findings of this. this is everyone with maybe one or two hold outs. and i bet they have not even close to the knowledge of BMWs and specifically the E46 to what i know. i don't need to be right, but do my best to present the information gathered for the E46 community. look at all the proof presented. what's your rebuttal to it all....not one bit of proof or fact. your only thing is that some say it "feels" different and we must be wrong.(we even asked you to help your case and do somethings and yet you chose not to or refuse to post the results.)

*thanks for the reply. so everyone knows i asked him to reply and thus why it's bumped. i did not however expect the denial stage still
What did you ask for? I'm sorry I don't feel like reading through 5 pages to find out. I actually summed up the thread pretty well. Some of what you've said I do not understand (with regards to sentence construction). Scientifically speaking you have made a good case, but you have not made a case that is fullproof. The final nail in the coffin (based on your line of thought) would be to look at the ZF numbers and confirm they are not meaningfully different, and maybe contact ZF about the whole situation. Maybe they'd have some insight.
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:35 PM   #105
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Alex, do you think a ZHP and a non-ZHP 330 have the same steering response?

If yes, you are in the minority. Even Terra disagrees with you. If not, then we can talk about the reasons why. If you say it's not the rack, so be it. If it is the CAs that result in this difference, I would like to hear from someone who actually swapped in ZHP CAs to their non-ZHP car.

The reasons you and Terra stated as to why you think ZHP steering is different so far are your best educated guesses. Not absolute proof. As far as I'm concerned, this needs something a little sharper than Occam's razor to cut it
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:32 AM   #106
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Alex, do you think a ZHP and a non-ZHP 330 have the same steering response?

If yes, you are in the minority. Even Terra disagrees with you. If not, then we can talk about the reasons why. If you say it's not the rack, so be it. If it is the CAs that result in this difference, I would like to hear from someone who actually swapped in ZHP CAs to their non-ZHP car.

The reasons you and Terra stated as to why you think ZHP steering is different so far are your best educated guesses. Not absolute proof. As far as I'm concerned, this needs something a little sharper than Occam's razor to cut it
I am not sure if the ZHP control arms is the same as the BMW Performance control arms but I only feel some difference (nothing major) with my BMW performance CA over my stock (323i).
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:35 AM   #107
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Sigh... I said I wasn't going to respond until if and when I posted a photo of my part#, but your post is absolutely ridiculous. Are you even listening to what you are saying?

If someone swaps their non-zhp control arms with ZHP arms and feels a "difference" it's not because it's OMG MAGIC ZHP PARTS, it's because you're swapping in an all-metal control arm. Whether it me ZHP or Meyle--same sh!t.

Of course a ZHP and non-ZHP don't have the same steering response. Solid balljoint vs nylon balljoint (outer). Heavier/larger tires/wheels, and if you're comparing non-sport to ZHP, 15mm lower suspension on the ZHP as well as stiffer dampers and swaybars.

Please stop basing your "facts" from this ZHP fantasy land you live in. You do not drive special one-off sports cars--hate to break it to you.

By the way, ImolaZHP just installed Meyle HD control arms in place of his busted 100k ZHP arms. He says the steering is again precise and sharp.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:47 AM   #108
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somebody give me $500 and i'll buy both racks and cut them apart piece by piece and take pictures.
that would be somewhat epic no matter the results.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:48 AM   #109
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:31 AM   #110
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I am not sure if the ZHP control arms is the same as the BMW Performance control arms but I only feel some difference (nothing major) with my BMW performance CA over my stock (323i).
Flash, your particular message is an old topic. You are right. The difference you're feeling is all-metal outer balljoint. (not really the fact that it's ZHP) For example, a Meyle HD control arm would give you that same "feeling" because it's also all-metal outer balljoint.

Old topic.

However, this topic has to do with SeanC and ZHP938832028837 claiming their racks, despite being the same part number and proven all over every forum for years, have a "special" feel and "quickness" to them.

They swear it feels so different. They attribute this difference to the steering rack being different although there's other differences as well: bigger sway bars, heavier AND larger tires/wheels, 15mm lower ride height (vs non-sport), smaller 3-spoke steering wheel (vs non-sport).

Redonkulous.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:10 AM   #111
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^ someone's got their panties in a wad cause they didn't buy a ZHP
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:14 AM   #112
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^ someone's got their panties in a wad cause they didn't buy a ZHP
Ehh, no. ZHPs are nice, but it's just a "package." The way my car sits now handles better and accelerates faster than a ZHP.

Any ZHP would need to be fully rebuilt anyway (to my standard--the stock suspension would be thrown in the garbage) and so would a sh!t load of other parts. In the end the only thing it would have going for it would be the gloss trim and maybe the 6-speed transmission (which you can get in a 2003 330i non-ZHP anyway)
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:21 AM   #113
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Even with my worn-out stock suspension components, my car handles really really well. Definitely gives some serious Gs in turns if you push it. ZHP is pretty well-made.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:30 AM   #114
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Even with my worn-out stock suspension components, my car handles really really well. Definitely gives some serious Gs in turns if you push it. ZHP is pretty well-made.
You get the perception of "handling really well" because BMWs are stiffly sprung and stiffly anti-roll barred. The ZHP has even stiffer anti-roll bars. Side to side maneuvering (even with out shocks, and in theory, without struts) wouldn't suffer much as long as you're on a smooth road. Try some high speed maneuvering or braking on a bumpy road surface and you'll notice you need new rubber and shocks/struts.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:54 AM   #115
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ZHP has the same 23.5 front bars and 18mm rear bars as the ZSP. So no, ZHP doesn't have even stiffer bars. In fact, earlier ZSP's (328's) came with 24mm bars, instead of 23.5. ZHP does however have stiffer shocks.

And nobody is claiming the difference in feel is being due to the rack. However, the fact is ZHP turns faster than a ZSP. The claim is there is not enough research to pinpoint the exact reason why.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:11 PM   #116
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Sigh... I said I wasn't going to respond until if and when I posted a photo of my part#, but your post is absolutely ridiculous. Are you even listening to what you are saying?

Please stop basing your "facts" from this ZHP fantasy land you live in. You do not drive special one-off sports cars--hate to break it to you.

By the way, ImolaZHP just installed Meyle HD control arms in place of his busted 100k ZHP arms. He says the steering is again precise and sharp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E46Mango View Post
Flash, your particular message is an old topic. You are right. The difference you're feeling is all-metal outer balljoint. (not really the fact that it's ZHP) For example, a Meyle HD control arm would give you that same "feeling" because it's also all-metal outer balljoint.

Old topic.

However, this topic has to do with SeanC and ZHP938832028837 claiming their racks, despite being the same part number and proven all over every forum for years, have a "special" feel and "quickness" to them.

They swear it feels so different. They attribute this difference to the steering rack being different although there's other differences as well: bigger sway bars, heavier AND larger tires/wheels, 15mm lower ride height (vs non-sport), smaller 3-spoke steering wheel (vs non-sport).

Redonkulous.
Mr. fact just fvcked up a whole bunch of well known facts. Uh oh.

- ZHP dampers are the same- at least according to BMW part numbers.
- Springs appear to be the same- but may not be because according to some BMW varies springs for pretty much any optional extra. There really is no way to get a grip on the spring situation.
- Sway bars are not bigger

Putting H&R springs on your car doesn't necessarily make it handle better than stock. If anything you should know that from your E36 M3 days. Bilsteins are nice, but a quantifiable increase in handling prowess? I doubt it.

You are so incredibly harsh on people you disagree with that you better get every single fvcking point of every one of your posts right. You blew it.

Redonkulous.

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Old 10-01-2012, 12:15 PM   #117
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Redonkulous?! Mr. fact just fvcked up a whole bunch of well known facts. Uh oh.

- ZHP dampers are the same- at least according to BMW part numbers.
- Springs appear to be the same- but may not be because according to some BMW varies springs for pretty much any optional extra. There really is no way to get a grip on the spring situation.
- Sway bars are not bigger

Putting H&R springs on your car doesn't necessarily make it handle better than stock. If anything you should know that from your E36 M3 days. Bilsteins are nice, but a quantifiable increase in handling prowess? I doubt it.
Particulars.

ZHP dampers are sold as part of the "ZHP suspension upgrade kit" they are firmer than non-ZHP. Percentage? I don't know.

Springs are same as ZSP but not as non-ZSP (15mm lower)

18.5mm vs 18.0mm rear and 23.5mm vs 23mm front (sport vs non-sport, respectively)

Bilsteins aren't my only "upgrade." I have lighter M68 wheels to begin with (haha forgot about that one, didn't ya?) stickier tires (Evo V12s), wider track (15mm/12.5mm spacers) and firmer CABs (Meyle HD vs stock fluid filled)

H&R springs, bilstein sports, M3 RTABs, new sway bushings and HD RSMs are just icing on the cake.

Redonkadonk
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:18 PM   #118
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And again don't try and turn this argument on suspension differences now. This is still on YOU ZHP93878. You and your buddy Sean are STILL claiming the rack is different. Or have you given up on that yet?
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:23 PM   #119
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Particulars.

ZHP dampers are sold as part of the "ZHP suspension upgrade kit" they are firmer than non-ZHP. Percentage? I don't know.

Springs are same as ZSP but not as non-ZSP (15mm lower)

18.5mm vs 18.0mm rear and 23.5mm vs 23mm front (sport vs non-sport, respectively)

Bilsteins aren't my only "upgrade." I have lighter M68 wheels to begin with (haha forgot about that one, didn't ya?) stickier tires (Evo V12s), wider track (15mm/12.5mm spacers) and firmer CABs (Meyle HD vs stock fluid filled)

H&R springs, bilstein sports, M3 RTABs, new sway bushings and HD RSMs are just icing on the cake.

Redonkadonk
I have a ZHP bud. The sway bars are 23.5mm and 18mm rear, exactly the same as later sport package cars. I have confirmed this on friends cars. The dampers have the same part numbers as 03+ sport dampers. The springs may or may not be different, but the consensus (that you always seem to love) thinks they are not.

Please give me more misinformation while I have the car right in front of me.

I didn't get into all of your quality modifications, I only mentioned your springs. At best they keep handling the same and make the car look better. And your tires are most likely just about as sticky as the stock Pilot Sports.

I modified mine too. I have RCs- which weigh 17lbs each (on my own scale) and Super Sports. I have Rogue RSMs, the same FCABs as you and 25mm front, 20mm rear sway bars. By the way they are a great mod that you should look into. My track is just as wide as yours. Not to mention I have a lower center of gravity. Why we are comparing everything I don't know, but my car will spank yours on a tight track.

And the discussion turned directions. SeanC asked the valid question, if it isn't the rack that makes the ZHP handle/feel better (since it isn't just the CAs), then what is it? You responded with a bunch of false "facts". That's where the thread is going.

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Old 10-01-2012, 12:27 PM   #120
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I have a ZHP bud. The sway bars are 23.5mm and 18mm rear, exactly the same as later sport package cars. I have confirmed this on friends cars. The dampers have the same part numbers as 03+ sport dampers. The springs may or may not be different, but the consensus (that you always seem to love) thinks they are not.

Please give me more misinformation while I have the car right in front of me.

I didn't get into all of your quality modifications, I only mentioned your springs. At best they keep handling the same and make the car look better. And your tires are most likely just about as sticky as the stock Pilot Sports.

I modified mine too. I have RCs- which weigh 17lbs each (on my own scale) and Super Sports. I have Rogue RSMs, the same FCABs as you and 25mm front, 20mm rear sway bars. By the way they are a great mod that you should look into. My track is just as wide as yours. Not to mention I have a lower center of gravity. Why we are comparing everything I don't know, but my car will spank yours on a tight track.

And the discussion turned directions. SeanC asked the valid question, if it isn't the rack that makes the ZHP handle/feel better (since it isn't just the CAs), then what is it? You responded with a bunch of false "facts". That's where the thread is going.
lol this isn't a "my d!ck is bigger than yours contest." i was referring to my particular car vs a stock zhp suspension. meaning if you bought a new zhp, you'd throw the entire suspension in the garbage anyway.

and yes keyword later sport package. not all e46s are equal. theres so many variations.

face it, your car is a 330 like the rest of ours.
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