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Old 08-25-2011, 06:03 PM   #1
Bimmerfun325i
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Braking and downshifting styles...!!!!

jhg
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:08 PM   #2
XXRUSIANXX
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I guess the point is that there is like three ways you can possibly downshift, so what happens after the third post?
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:10 PM   #3
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IDK of any other way without making it jerky. I heel and toe when I drive manual, except I use more of the outside of my foot than the heel because my foots too big.
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:43 PM   #4
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I do it the other way with my right foot. My right heel is on the brake and my toes are blipping the throttle. When I was 17, I was in a car wreck that Broke my right femur and my right leg has a natural turn to the right, as in when I stand normally, my right foot points right. I just started practicing one day and now it's automatic to heel and toe on all turns (can't seem to break myself from it either). I can do it in sandals, shoes and steel toed work boots. I had a friend comment after a spirited drive in the country that he wished he could heel and toe as well as I could, I wasn't even aware I was doing it, was kinda weird. My dad is driven crazy by it when we go somewhere in his truck and I drive, he tells me to stop revving it, so I have to be conscious of it then.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:07 PM   #5
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I am not sure I understand the question, but I do it wrong, I am sure. Ever since I saw that video, where the dude puts his hand on the left side of the shifter to go one way, and on the right to go another. Too confusing. Looking for a CVT right now.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:21 PM   #6
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Heel/Toe.... ALWAYS.

From SE-R.net: http://www.se-r.net/general/heel_toe.html

I wrote it so, take it for what it's worth.

Quote:
This subject has come up almost as much as fifth gear pop-out recently. So....

First of all, the purpose for downshifting before a corner is to engage the proper gear for *exiting* the corner. You should *never* use the engine's compression for braking. Besides, you should be able to brake a lot harder and faster than the engine could ever hope to contribute to slowing down.

Done correctly, your braking will be as smooth as if you took the car out of gear or didn't downshift at all. The nose of the car should *never* bob up and down as you heel and toe. If this happens, it means your braking is uneven and you are not braking as hard as you could. Also, if you use trail-braking into a corner, you will upset the balance and handling of the car. This means you cannot corner at the limit of adhesion (or if you are at the limit, you will likely spin).

Heel/Toe braking is taught both with double clutching and single clutching. Double clutching comes from days gone by when gearboxes were more fragile and synchros didn't last. Using double clutching, as you brake, you press the clutch, take the car out of gear and let out the clutch. You then blip the throttle to bring the input shaft of the gearbox up to the proper speed to mesh with the output shaft (for whatever gear you are selecting). Press the clutch when the revs are matched, select the new gear, let out the clutch. Repeat as necessary.

The modern method is single clutching. This was used by the pros before rev matching was built into racing engine management software. It is also what is taught at racing schools. Using single clutching, as you brake, you press the clutch, blip the throttle to match revs for the next gear, select the gear, and let out the clutch. Repeat as necessary. Single clutching relies on the synchros to mesh the gears (I think I recently posted the opposite, duh < 8^ ( - sorry).

The trick most people have a problem with is working the brake and throttle at the same time. Done properly, you put the whole ball of your foot on the brake (don't cheat and put half on - if it slips off under threshold braking, or you miss entirely, you are likely in big trouble), turn your foot partially sideways until it is over the throttle, and turn your ankle to use the *side* of your foot to blip the throttle. It feels weird at first, but gets better as you gain experience.

This brings up the subject of pedal placement. Everybody likes something different. There are a number of ways of changing the spacing between the brake and throttle pedals. That's another subject and I won't cover it here. I used to like the pedals closer together than I do now (in fact, I think the SE-R classic has ideal placement). When I attended the Spenard David Racing School (now the Bridgestone school) I asked for the pedals to be adjusted closer together. They would not do it. The reason is the brake pedal, when fully depressed, should still be higher than the gas pedal. This way, when under threshold braking, you minimize the risk of pressing the gas too, upsetting the car, or extending your braking zone.

Remember, your first priority is braking. Also be smooth. Your front end should NOT bob up and down. Your braking distances will probably be longer at first, so keep this in mind. When practicing, don't brake any harder than you can without bobbing (dumb, driving over your head!). As you get used to it, you'll be able to brake harder and harder until you can brake just as hard either way.

Sorry for the long post, but these questions keep coming up. It's not SE-R related specifically, but we might want to put this into the FAQ, since it comes up all of the time.

Enjoy the ride,

George Roffe
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:21 PM   #7
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Yeah, upon further consideration, I definitely do it wrong. I'll leave it at that. Fortunately for me, my track time is pretty light and my skills are such that this is far from the limiting factor in my lap times.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:24 PM   #8
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I use the left/right side of my foot, with my foot vertical. Typically blip every downshift.


If it is a long slowdown (5th to a tight turn) I will slow down while in neutral, and then blip when going into second.


There are a ton of ways to do it. Do what you are comfortable with.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:31 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by spage View Post
I use the left/right side of my foot, with my foot vertical. Typically blip every downshift.
See, that's bad. Some people will tell you it's OK, but it's bad. Or lazy (I do this on the street occasionally when I get lazy, but if I can't myself doing it, I correct it).

You see, you MUST get your braking done. If you don't, blipping the throttle is meaningless. If your foot slides off the brake in the braking zone under threshold braking, you're going off track. Or worse.

Learn it properly so you don't let mistakes become ingrained.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:39 PM   #10
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On the track or in emergency situations, I agree. You've gotta get the entire ball of your foot on there. But for regular non-emergency braking, it has worked quite well for me for the last 14 years.




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Old 08-25-2011, 11:27 PM   #11
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Old 08-25-2011, 11:35 PM   #12
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I usually revmatch without braking and single clutch the downshift. Heel-toe is difficult with my bad ankle.
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Old 08-26-2011, 01:43 AM   #13
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For street driving, I'm usually not driving fast enough for heel-toe to be necessary. I either downshift before braking, use compression braking to slow down a little, or just brake without downshifting (since really, as long as I'm above 40mph or so, 6th has enough power for me in street conditions)
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Old 08-26-2011, 05:15 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Bimmerfun325i View Post
Hey man. uhhhhh whats up? i was just tryin to start a thread, didnt mean anything rude or wrong about it so i dont see what the hostility was for but ok, thanks for your opinion....
No hostility, OP, just misunderstood humor. Ask around, I'm really funny!

That said, are you asking because this is your track car and you have another one for DD?

If not, I'll tell you I've been driving for almost 40 years and don't heel/toe, but I don't track. I want to, but I haven't; $ just hasn't allowed me to throw away tires or risk the car.

I come into a turn. Brake before turning really hard. While downshifting I'm blipping the throttle and by the time I engage the clutch in the lower gear (almost always 2nd), my revs are where they need to be.

Doesn't take much time at all for me to move from brake to throttle, and when I start to turn, the braking is done, so my foot is free to get on the gas and keep the revs where they need to be.

I add just a couple pounds above the door jamb pressure in the front so my steering is basically neutral, so if I need to roll the rear end around a bit with throttle steering, I can easily.

If this 'is' your only car, and you want to learn this to drive around town a little more impressively, just be careful. Your trans, clutch, car, and life all have value!

As George indicated, if you get it wrong, it could go really wrong...especially if you do get into this habit, and happen to have wet shoes, and slip. If you're tracking an ordinary BMW, or your only one, the extra 1/10th second really doesn't matter...you're doing this for fun, not to become the Stig!
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:56 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by greenskycity View Post
I do it the other way with my right foot. My right heel is on the brake and my toes are blipping the throttle. When I was 17, I was in a car wreck that Broke my right femur and my right leg has a natural turn to the right, as in when I stand normally, my right foot points right. I just started practicing one day and now it's automatic to heel and toe on all turns (can't seem to break myself from it either). I can do it in sandals, shoes and steel toed work boots. I had a friend comment after a spirited drive in the country that he wished he could heel and toe as well as I could, I wasn't even aware I was doing it, was kinda weird. My dad is driven crazy by it when we go somewhere in his truck and I drive, he tells me to stop revving it, so I have to be conscious of it then.
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I need to rescind my answer. After a run to Mickey D's this morning, I took the time to see how I drive and I do it as it is in the picture that the OP posted. Doh!
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:05 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Geo31 View Post
Heel/Toe.... ALWAYS.

From SE-R.net: http://www.se-r.net/general/heel_toe.html

I wrote it so, take it for what it's worth.
Geo I really appreciate the response man. Your artice has alot of good insight to what I was wondering. Thanks again man!
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:37 AM   #17
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I can't heel toe, I just blurp the throttle
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:40 AM   #18
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My style varies considerably based on situations but basically the methods:

1: where entry speed is high, heel and toe as depicted in your graphic.
2: where entry is long and speed not that high, rev match then downshift without braking
3: where entry speed is really low, downshift without rev matching
It's hard to describe because the situations can vary so much as exit requirements also affects the method used.
I think pedal placement in my Celica GT-Four is "more perfect" for heel and toe plus I think the CDV (which so far I refuse to remove) in the 3 throws things off just a hair.
A little left foot braking action gets used sometimes too. I like watching these guys a lot.



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Old 08-26-2011, 10:53 AM   #19
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I have an automatic :-\
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Old 08-26-2011, 02:21 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticBlau330Ci View Post
My style varies considerably based on situations but basically the methods:

1: where entry speed is high, heel and toe as depicted in your graphic.
2: where entry is long and speed not that high, rev match then downshift without braking
3: where entry speed is really low, downshift without rev matching
It's hard to describe because the situations can vary so much as exit requirements also affects the method used.
I think pedal placement in my Celica GT-Four is "more perfect" for heel and toe plus I think the CDV (which so far I refuse to remove) in the 3 throws things off just a hair.
A little left foot braking action gets used sometimes too. I like watching these guys a lot.



After watching those videos I could swear he was up-shifting a few times without ever pushing in the clutch. Also when he did use the clutch he never took his foot off the throttle!

I don't think a BMW tranny could handle that.
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