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E46 Xi Forum
The E46 XI was produced from 01-05 in sedan and touring body styles. Powered by either a 2.5L inline 6 in the 325xi or a 3.0L inline 6 330xi. Discuss all thing about BMW AWD E46 'Xi' here.

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Old 09-13-2011, 05:21 PM   #41
TiAgXi
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You've gone full retard.
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Old 09-13-2011, 05:28 PM   #42
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I'm with SamDoe on this one!
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Old 09-13-2011, 05:47 PM   #43
e46alfonso
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im right, even when im wrong im right jk. to me this is one of those german mysteries that will never be solved. everyday i feel like i bought the wrong car xi instead of the normal I. am i the only one who feels this way?
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Old 09-13-2011, 06:08 PM   #44
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Sometimes. Even living in the mountains, I only rarely need awd. 355 days out of the year I'd be better of with an M3 or ZHP.
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Old 09-13-2011, 06:19 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by TiAgXi View Post
You've gone full retard.
This is largely pointless, i've been going around in circles for a while now. Citing indep resources until i am blue in the face. But since you are resorting to giving people false information to be stubborn and obnoxious, i'll try to put this in a context a child could understand.

Whether you want to call it: open, closed, Dan, or Rita, the values of the transfer case NEVER CHANGE. The BMW literature says this multiple times.

By definition an open diff is variable. It's outputs change. That's what makes it "open".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_differential:

When the differential is unlocked (open differential), it allows each wheel to rotate at different speeds (such as when negotiating a turn), thus avoiding tire scuffing. An open (or unlocked) differential always provides the same torque (rotational force) to each of the two wheels, on that axle. So although the wheels can rotate at different speeds, they apply the same rotational force, even if one is entirely stationary, and the other spinning. (Equal torque, unequal rotational speed).
By contrast, a locked differential forces both left and right wheels on the same axle to rotate at the same speed under nearly all circumstances, without regard to tractional differences seen at either wheel. Therefore, each wheel can apply as much rotational force as the traction under it will allow, and the torques on each side-shaft will be unequal. (Unequal torque, equal rotational speeds).

What we know:
We know that the t case outpower power is fixed and does not change.

We know that the t case does not provide the same, fixed, torque to both outputs.

We know that the t case output speed is the same to both outputs under all circumstances.


.... You want even simpler??? OK.

"When the differential is unlocked (open differential), it allows each wheel to rotate at different speeds"

BMW: "It uses two open differentials and a single speed transfer case."


One of these things is not like the others, One of these things just doesn't belong, Can you tell which thing is not like the others. By the time I finish my song?
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Old 09-13-2011, 07:54 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by chuckb View Post
This is largely pointless, i've been going around in circles for a while now. Citing indep resources until i am blue in the face. But since you are resorting to giving people false information to be stubborn and obnoxious, i'll try to put this in a context a child could understand.

Whether you want to call it: open, closed, Dan, or Rita, the values of the transfer case NEVER CHANGE. The BMW literature says this multiple times.

By definition an open diff is variable. It's outputs change. That's what makes it "open".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_differential:

When the differential is unlocked (open differential), it allows each wheel to rotate at different speeds (such as when negotiating a turn), thus avoiding tire scuffing. An open (or unlocked) differential always provides the same torque (rotational force) to each of the two wheels, on that axle. So although the wheels can rotate at different speeds, they apply the same rotational force, even if one is entirely stationary, and the other spinning. (Equal torque, unequal rotational speed).
By contrast, a locked differential forces both left and right wheels on the same axle to rotate at the same speed under nearly all circumstances, without regard to tractional differences seen at either wheel. Therefore, each wheel can apply as much rotational force as the traction under it will allow, and the torques on each side-shaft will be unequal. (Unequal torque, equal rotational speeds).

What we know:
We know that the t case outpower power is fixed and does not change.

We know that the t case does not provide the same, fixed, torque to both outputs.

We know that the t case output speed is the same to both outputs under all circumstances.


.... You want even simpler??? OK.

"When the differential is unlocked (open differential), it allows each wheel to rotate at different speeds"

BMW: "It uses two open differentials and a single speed transfer case."


One of these things is not like the others, One of these things just doesn't belong, Can you tell which thing is not like the others. By the time I finish my song?
I may regret this, but you do realize that a single speed transfer case can still run at different speeds right?
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Old 09-13-2011, 10:14 PM   #47
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I knew you wouldn't resist forever Sam.

I'm guessing that most people here have driven a 4x4 on dry pavement with the transfer case engaged. Remember what that feels like? All the jittering and binding, especially when turning? That's how our cars would feel if the t-case was locked. it's not. It's open. It's open to allow the weels on the front axle rotate at a different speed than the rear wheels. That way, we can drive our permanently AWD cars around on dry pavement without the cars feeling like crap.

Our t-case is basically designed as an open-diff with uneven torque split.

Sorry Chuck. I know you'll never agree. I also know that you can't answer my question. A link isn't an answer. A diagram isn't an answer. Just give it to me in your own words: how did those rear wheels remain stationary when the front wheels were moving? How did it happen Chuck???

Last edited by TiAgXi; 09-13-2011 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 09-13-2011, 11:01 PM   #48
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i have a little story to brainwash chuck or whoever wants a simple answer . my car got towed away by a towtruck while in gear with emergency breaks down (OFF) i was scarred to death for a moment because i thought my tranny or diff might have broke. the front wheels were locked by the truck while the rear ones moving while in gear. when i went to the place to check out the car it was fine of course and drove well. now does this prove that its an open diff or what? the locked ones cant CANT be towed they need a flatbed bc all wheels must move at the same time and speed. i hope this makes sense i like to keep it short and simple
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Old 09-13-2011, 11:11 PM   #49
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I knew you wouldn't resist forever Sam.
There's only so much I can take...

One thing I'd like to ask Chuck is this: Explain to me how a planetary gear set works. Please do not go quote wikipedia, go read it and give me in your words how it works. That is the root of this whole debate and until you understand that part, we are going to go in circles. So please, go read and give me your answer and we'll go from there.

Disclaimer: There is no attack here, just trying to prove a point by education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e46alfonso View Post
i have a little story to brainwash chuck or whoever wants a simple answer . my car got towed away by a towtruck while in gear with emergency breaks down (OFF) i was scarred to death for a moment because i thought my tranny or diff might have broke. the front wheels were locked by the truck while the rear ones moving while in gear. when i went to the place to check out the car it was fine of course and drove well. now does this prove that its an open diff or what? the locked ones cant CANT be towed they need a flatbed bc all wheels must move at the same time and speed. i hope this makes sense i like to keep it short and simple
^Bingo.
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Old 09-13-2011, 11:21 PM   #50
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It's not open.

It's not locked.

It's special. Planetary gear set without a fixed sun, planet, or ring gear.
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Old 09-13-2011, 11:53 PM   #51
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The reason the TC didn't explode when towed is because there is not a fixed planet, sun, or ring. Lifting and locking the front wheels just fixed the ring, and the sun and planets kept spinning. Doesn't mean no damage was done. Change TC fluid asap.
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Old 09-14-2011, 12:52 AM   #52
e46alfonso
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i doubt any damage was caused. all awd cars are meant to be towed (i think) just not the 4by4 ones. i know some1 who works at the dealer parts dep ill ask him if these cars can be towed
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Old 09-14-2011, 02:41 AM   #53
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You cant tow a e30 ix with two wheels down. and that's an OPEN t case. You guys are clumping things into categories. I would suppose whether it can be towed would be completely dependent on the differential in question, and not necessarily whether it was "open" or not.



The ix was towed with 2 wheels down. the AWD still works. But it's F'd up. Just because it's towed doesnt necessarily mean that the AWD immediately goes to ****.

I'd guess Kubica is right that BMW probably/may have addressed the 'not being able to tow' part. But i'm sick of doing all your legwork and googling stuff. GO LOOK IT UP YOURSELF, and feel free to provide a link. All the information is out there. You obviously have the internet too.

I already gave you a step-by-step, picture-by-picture of the t case, and it's power transfer. I also gave you what BMW themselves says about the t case.

If you don't understand a picture book explanation, gear by gear, of how it works what do you expect from me?

I didn't design the t case. I've never taken a tcase apart. All the information i know is what i've shown you.

Do you think i have some intimate knowledge to share with you? If i gave you the impression that i'm some kind of BMW insider or something then i didn't mean to. The purpose of the links was to share all the information i could find with everyone else, for education.
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Old 09-14-2011, 02:51 AM   #54
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whether or not the tcase will explode when half of it is dragged doesnt necessarily dictate how the car will act when the car is actually driving.

BMW says all the outputs of the t case are FIXED.

To say that when i suspended my car in mid air it does this, or when tow it down the street it does this, doesnt meat ****.

BMW stated what the car is designed to do when DRIVEN. What is this thread about if not when the car is DRIVING???????

What would happen if an xi was on the bottom of the ocean? What about on mars? How bout dropped from a plane? WHO CARES?????

My cars don't get towed. My cars don't get left idling with half the car suspended in mid air. My cars dont drive in the ocean, nor on mars.

If BMW says it and you don't believe it, what do you want from me?

Last edited by chuckb; 09-14-2011 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 09-14-2011, 03:00 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
I may regret this, but you do realize that a single speed transfer case can still run at different speeds right?
The outputs can run at different speeds, but it's still the same speed on both output. They are not different speeds.

EDIT: Thats what the whole explanation is. Take a open diff. You take a corner and the outside wheel spins faster than the inside. The input is the drive shaft. The outputs are either axle, to the wheels. One input, two outputs at different speeds. On the t case the input is the tranny, and the outputs are the F and R driveshafts going to the F and R diffs. As you press the gas the t case spins the driveshafts faster, and at different speeds sure, but it's always at a 1:1 ratio. The speed is never different between the outputs.

The link i've been chastised for providing and quoting explained this in more detail and probably better than i can.

Last edited by chuckb; 09-14-2011 at 03:12 AM.
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Old 09-14-2011, 06:59 AM   #56
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The T case is "open" in the sense that the outputs can be moved at different speeds. (1 half shaft will spin while the other does nothing) Just like your "open" diff does on said corners. However in a straight line your "open" diff acts as a solid axle. When going in a straight line at a constant speed. The ABS manipulates how much torque is needed to spin each wheel. The power goes to the wheel that needs the least amount of torque to spin. This is where the DSC comes into play with your abs system. Your wheel speed sensors pick up that 1 wheel is spinning and 3 others are not. It applies the brakes to the spinning wheel allowing the other wheels to get the power/torque. The T case is "open" (don't get stuck on the word, just the meaning) If you take off your front half shaft the car refuses to move, why? B/c the part of the power train that takes the least amount of torque to spin will get the power. IE Your front half shaft. Apply the E brake put your car in the air and the front wheels spin. Hold the front wheels and the rears will spin. This isn't about "open/close" it's about what the abs will allow the drive train to do. It's all done with abs/wheel speed sensor out put/inputs. Thus the need for the planetary gears... Yes, the speed is very different on the out puts. One moves while the other does nothing. It's not what you're writing, it's how you are getting your information across.

Last edited by xixixi; 09-14-2011 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 09-14-2011, 09:30 AM   #57
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The T case is "open" in the sense that the outputs can be moved at different speeds. (1 half shaft will spin while the other does nothing) Just like your "open" diff does on said corners. However in a straight line your "open" diff acts as a solid axle. When going in a straight line at a constant speed. The ABS manipulates how much torque is needed to spin each wheel. The power goes to the wheel that needs the least amount of torque to spin. This is where the DSC comes into play with your abs system. Your wheel speed sensors pick up that 1 wheel is spinning and 3 others are not. It applies the brakes to the spinning wheel allowing the other wheels to get the power/torque. The T case is "open" (don't get stuck on the word, just the meaning) If you take off your front half shaft the car refuses to move, why? B/c the part of the power train that takes the least amount of torque to spin will get the power. IE Your front half shaft. Apply the E brake put your car in the air and the front wheels spin. Hold the front wheels and the rears will spin. This isn't about "open/close" it's about what the abs will allow the drive train to do. It's all done with abs/wheel speed sensor out put/inputs. Thus the need for the planetary gears... Yes, the speed is very different on the out puts. One moves while the other does nothing. It's not what you're writing, it's how you are getting your information across.
Yep. And that's exactly what I've been saying ever since we figured it out in that other thread.
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Old 09-14-2011, 09:33 AM   #58
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You cant tow a e30 ix with two wheels down. and that's an OPEN t case. You guys are clumping things into categories. I would suppose whether it can be towed would be completely dependent on the differential in question, and not necessarily whether it was "open" or not.
Get your facts straight. e30ix has a VC center. That's why its "better" than the e46.

Read your own link:
http://www.awdwiki.com/en/bmw/
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Old 09-14-2011, 10:01 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by xixixi View Post
The T case is "open" in the sense that the outputs can be moved at different speeds.
An LSD is not "open", but it's outputs can move at different speeds.

Our diffs are 100% "open", an LSD is maybe 60% "open", and our TC's are maybe 3% "open" under normal driving conditions.
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Old 09-14-2011, 02:21 PM   #60
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Get your facts straight. e30ix has a VC center. That's why its "better" than the e46.

Read your own link:
http://www.awdwiki.com/en/bmw/
Good greif. You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

I said on page one that the ix had a VC transfer case. However a VC transfer case is OPEN because the power is transferred back and forth between the front and rear.

Go look at the links i posted of what an open differential does. I don't think yo get it.

It's getting old trying to tutor you. You have NO CLUE.
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