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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 09-09-2011, 07:19 AM   #1
NFRs2000nyc
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Your opinon on CCW/OpenCW on private PUBLIC property

I take it most of you know about the Walgreens shooting in Indiana. Now I'm sure any of us would have done the same thing, but apparently Walgreens has fired the pharmacist for carrying inside the workplace.

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Hero Gets Fired for Using a Gun to Stop Robberyby John R. Lott, Jr. The police described it as an armed robbery and a hostage situation. Before dawn on Sunday, May, 8th, two robbers stormed into a Walgreens store wearing masks and gloves and carrying guns. Video cameras in the store on Napier Avenue in Benton Township, Michigan captured the whole event. Fortunately, though, Jeremy Hoven, a pharmacist and one of the employees in the store, had a permitted concealed handgun with him. Unfortunately, Walgreens fired Hoven for having a gun at work.
Police Lt. Delmar Lange thought that Hoven had done the right thing firing shots and forcing the robbers to flee. “[Hoven] could see the hostage situation developing. He could not retreat any farther. He was in the back room. If it was me, I would have done the same thing,” Lange told the Detroit Free-Press. Lange thought that the video cameras clearly showed that Hoven had no alternative. The robbers were “very aggressive and very dangerous in what they did and how they did it.”
At least one of the three other workers in the store was also convinced that Hoven did the right thing, sending Hoven a thank-you card with a photograph of his four children.
Other evidence also suggests that Hoven did “the right thing.” The National Crime Victimization Survey shows that defending oneself with a gun is by far the safest course of action when one is confronted by a robber. For example, people who protect themselves with a gun are injured in robberies about 8 percent of the time, but those who behave passively are injured by the criminals 24 percent of the time, a three times higher rate.

Police have yet to catch the two robbers, but they believe that one of them was wounded by Hoven. Hopefully, the robber will be arrested when he shows up at a hospital for medical treatment.
Hoven started working at Walgreens in 2006 and became the night shift pharmacist at the Napier Avenue store in 2007. The store was robbed by four men, one carrying a gun, in December 2007. Despite numerous requests for improved security by the store’s workers, Walgreens did change anything. Out of concern for his safety, Hoven got his concealed handgun permit in November 2008 Some states let employees keep guns locked in their cars in company parking lots (Indiana has NO such RULE!). But simply letting Hoven keep his gun in his car obviously wouldn’t have let him get to it in time. Hoven fired his gun only after one of the robbers jumped over the counter and confronted Hoven. The robber was only a few feet from Hoven.

Now, I am the first person to say that private anything can do whatever they like HOWEVER.....

1)If I come to JonJons house, he can or can't let me in, tell me to disarm before entry, etc.

2)JonJon has a right to deny me entry because I'm black, asian, etc.

3)Walgreens CANNOT deny entry because someone is black, as it is protected.

4)JonJon's house is purely private property PERIOD.

5)Walgreens and businesses of the like are private property, BUT, they are open to the general public.

Do you support/agree that a business has a legal right to disallow a citizen to do something that is STATE legal?

A 9mm for your thoughts?
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Old 09-09-2011, 07:48 AM   #2
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The company can make any rule they want. I manage a business that has 10+ million dollars of merchandise at all times. Over 200k in jewelry and over 500k in tvs. I also work during closing hours or opening hours. My CEO says no guns. It sucks. And I don't agree with it. But as we see time and time again, if you fight the bad guys youll lose your job even if you save lives.
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Old 09-09-2011, 07:59 AM   #3
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A private business absolutely has the right to allow/deny access and set policies except on "protected classes" like race. Gun owners are not a protected class, and state law shouldn't set private business policies.

If a company does not allow firearms on their property, I choose to vote with my $ and not shop there. I respect their policy but disagree with it. I can't respect any company that forces people to disarm and essentially put my life in risk creating a "criminal only armed" environment. I will also tell the thousands/millions of firearm owners I have contact with to also not patronize that company.

I typically CC, so it is a none issue, but I do research company policies ahead of time. There are plenty of store managers like at Walmart that think they can make up their own store rules, when in fact it's set by corporate. Most companies take the stance on firearm to "follow local or state laws", regardless of what that store managers opinion is.

As far as carrying at work, weigh your risk... Is potentially having the ability to defend your life and your coworkers worth potentially losing your job and ability to pay bills and provide for your family? Maybe yes, maybe no
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I agree with JonJon.

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Old 09-09-2011, 08:01 AM   #4
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The company can make any rule they want. I manage a business that has 10+ million dollars of merchandise at all times. Over 200k in jewelry and over 500k in tvs. I also work during closing hours or opening hours. My CEO says no guns. It sucks. And I don't agree with it. But as we see time and time again, if you fight the bad guys youll lose your job even if you save lives.
Personally, I would rather lose my job than my life, so those policies don't mean squat to me. If I lived in a CCW state, I would carry to work regardless of policies (concealed being the key word here.)

This thread is more about your interpretation of law...not hiring black guys is illegal because it violates government law. Not allowing guns violates law, private or public, thus, you get my point. Hopefully, it will change one day.

Hell, I am not even going to talk about the idiot states like NJ, NY, CA, and whatever other state is a MAY ISSUE state. I am talking about the SHALL issue states, where the 2nd amendment is recognized. Not allowing people to carry would violate one of the core rights of the person.

The funny thing is, had that guy NOT been carrying, and ANYONE got injured, they could sue walgreens for tens and tens of millions because they were injured "because they don't allow weapons on premises..." well, legal ones anyway.
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Old 09-09-2011, 08:10 AM   #5
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Since he was an employee shouldn't there have to be something in the company policy that states no weapons/firearms while on duty? If it doesn't state in the policy they can't fire him, right? Unless they have a sign on the entry that states the same.
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Old 09-09-2011, 08:33 AM   #6
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I would carry regardless if I felt the need. Why do I owe loyalty to corporations?
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:30 AM   #7
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Most corporations write their policies in respect to all states they occupy. So yes, walgreens may have stores in va where even open carry is legal to "anyone" they also have stores in Cali where it is not.

Just saying.
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:35 AM   #8
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Although I would much rather be able to carry a gun at work, I understand why it is standard policy to prohibit it. I am lucking enough to work for myself, so I do what I want. I would consider who I worked for based on this type of information.

If you are working for a mom/pop, they probably have not even thought about it. So...

For someone who is really that scared of losing their life at work, being fired for it should not matter.

In other words, losing your job to save your life should be an easy trade off.
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:55 AM   #9
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Firing him is pretty much a no-brainer from the company's perspective...it goes against their policy and they have to maintain consistency (I've seen/heard of people losing their jobs for tackling shoplifters as well). Obviously it worked out well in this case, but the potential for opening the company up to liability is HUGE....

That doesn't mean he didn't do the right thing

In TX, you're not allowed to carry into any business that derives more than 51% of their sales through alcohol, so some restaurants are automatically off limits by law (nothing to do with the business owners)
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Old 09-09-2011, 11:08 AM   #10
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In FL only the places listed in statutes are able to prohibit firearms(public events/gov buildings) but if you are asked to leave for any reason and refuse its criminal trespassing and if you happen to have a gun the charge jumps to a felony.

As far as work goes and if I ever have to use it and get fired at least i'll be alive.
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:46 PM   #11
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If anyone here listens to the Jason Lewis Show, you'll know where I'm going with this. Jason Lewis made an argument several years ago about how the most important amendment is the 4th Amendment. The whole issue revolves around free property rights and how people have freedom on their own property to invoke their freedoms. Inasmuch, public places (roads, parks, public buildings) are not private property. However, the human body has been recognized by SCOTUS as private property and protected by the 4th Amendment. Governments have no authority to restrict your free exercise of rights on your own property, which is why CCW should be a nationwide thing and people should not be restricted from carrying in public, regardless of where you live. If for no other reason than the weapon is on private property (your body). Now, the exception to this applies to private property regulating what others do while on said property.

In Minnesota, we verbiage that describes properties as "private property regularly accessible to the public, though not as a matter of right." What that means is that anyone can go there, but you have no right to be there. It's a parking lot, a Wallyworld, Walgreens, etc. Some businesses elect to be against certain things, and that's their right. CVS Pharmacy used to carry a product that was created by people I know. The people advertised their product on Glenn Beck. A week later, CVS Pharmacy dropped the product and sent them a letter stating that they would not carry the product anymore due to the affiliation with a controversial (read: CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN) political talk show. That's absolutely stupid, but in the end it IS their right as a private company to do such.

I think that businesses should want to allow carry. In many instances, I think that businesses could solve the problem by just making sure that the employee isn't carrying openly. That way, the company won't be associated with the guns and the activity and be seen as supporting, but would also be allowing employees to do what they want. However, as we have seen, many won't. In Minnesota, if you have a Permit to Carry (PTC), you are allowed to store your gun in your vehicle on private property, at schools, anywhere. The only exception is on federal property. Otherwise, a company cannot adversely take action against your for, or prevent you from, keeping a weapon in your vehicle. If they have a policy or have it signed, it still does not matter. State law allows it. The reason is because your car is deemed to be private property not under the control of the business.
Within our laws, we have statements stating that businesses can have anti-weapons policies. They can also ban guns from the premises, but they must post signs IAW state law guidelines. If you carry on there, you are not inherently in violation. They must tell you to leave and you must refuse to. It's a form of trespassing. Again, 4th Amendment applicability. The good thing about MN is that I have never been to a business signed with one of those stupid "Rob Me" signs actually ask anyone if they were carrying or if they had a gun. Most people who support commercial gun ban policies are ignorant enough to not realize that the sign alone is not the whole process, so people still carry. If they don't see the gun, it's not a problem. This is another reason for CONCEALED carry as opposed to open carry, but you all know my stand on that. If they don't see it, then they don't know you have it, then they won't tell you to leave, then you are not violating state law.
Also good is that MN recognizes LEOSA/HR218 and stipulates that no one can prohibit peace officers from carrying in their place of business.
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:47 PM   #12
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Completely agree REEDO

Good post
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I agree with JonJon.
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:43 PM   #13
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Video of Walgreens incident
This guy is a fvcking HERO

Run you cowardly, cockroach, animal MF'ers!


http://video-embed.mlive.com/service...=1147830475001
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:49 PM   #14
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Video of Walgreens incident
This guy is a fvcking HERO

Run you cowardly, cockroach, animal MF'ers!


http://video-embed.mlive.com/service...=1147830475001
good find
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Old 09-10-2011, 09:07 AM   #15
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I would think that pharmacists should be MADE to CCW. Tons of crazy crackheads trying to get their pills at all costs, doing anything and everything AFTER they get high, and do crazy things. What those pharmacists have behind the counter these days is no joke (street wise) and these cockroaches will do almost anything to get it. After this entire discussion, I still think that legal guns should be allowed on private property that is open to the public and that individual rights should trump those of the "private owner." Hell, many states have laws in which you can kill for grave danger to body, but not for property, thus, the private land owner would be outweighed in that respect. Furthermore, written into law that a private citizen may not disarm another private citizen for any reason at any time.
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:02 PM   #16
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I carry anyways. I try to avoid places that 'ban guns' just because I don't want them to have my business, but places like Buffalo Wild Wings are just too delicious to ignore.

In VA the way the 'no guns' signs work is if somehow they find out you are concealing they have the right to ask you to leave. If you refuse to leave and police intervention is required, it's a misdemeanor trespassing. If it happens again, its a felony trespassing. I have no problem leaving if asked (if for some reason they knew I had a gun) so I just carry in those places anyways.
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:24 PM   #17
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I would think that pharmacists should be MADE to CCW. Tons of crazy crackheads trying to get their pills at all costs, doing anything and everything AFTER they get high, and do crazy things. What those pharmacists have behind the counter these days is no joke (street wise) and these cockroaches will do almost anything to get it. After this entire discussion, I still think that legal guns should be allowed on private property that is open to the public and that individual rights should trump those of the "private owner." Hell, many states have laws in which you can kill for grave danger to body, but not for property, thus, the private land owner would be outweighed in that respect. Furthermore, written into law that a private citizen may not disarm another private citizen for any reason at any time.
You make a great point. I think that a person has a right to defend themselves and feel secure in their safety. It borders a line, because I am a big supporter of property rights and being able to control everything that goes on at your property. On the same token, I believe that if you make your business regularly accessible to the public, though not as a matter of right, that you need to have some adherence to state laws regarding recognition of CCW legality. I like what Minnesota did, where I cannot be forced disarm. This was done after MN interpreted the HR218/LEOSA and then thought - "Wow, why the hell would we bar off duty cops from carrying guns? That's free security!"
Unfortunately, they don't seem to recognize that so much with private citizens.
I would like to see a stipulation stating that businesses and organizations that allow public access (non-membership/non-restricted/controlled) being required to adhere to PTC/CCW laws. I understand the stipulations prohibiting carry at courthouses, hospitals, schools and day care centers (LEOs can still carry to all but courthouses off duty). But as a matter of sheer logic, I do not go into liquor stores, convenience stores, banks, pharmacies or on public transit without a gun. Everyone should go to those places with guns.

As far as requiring pharmacists to carry, that wouldn't be a bad idea, expect that most around here are really old or never around, and the pharmacy techs are all 25yr old girls. Here's how I see it- let the sheeple be secure in their belief that they are safer without guns. Let them get robbed, jacked or assaulted and find out otherwise. Sadly, most sheeple will sit and ponder after the fact "what did I do to deserve that?" or "where were the police to stop this?" or "did I do something wrong? did I miss something? How could I not see that coming?"
They won't simply go "if someone working here had been carrying a gun, those motherfvckers would be dead and would never be able to do it again to me or anyone else."
I believe in Karma to a limited extent. Moreso, I believe in Cause and Effect. If you are stupid, then stupid things will happen to you because you will do stupid things. People who do irrational, illogical or just plain stupid things usually deserve some level of victimization. Not out of spite, but as a possible learning tool to see what not to do next time. Problem is, most people don't learn.
Can't tell you how many times times I've had to have a "Come to Jesus" talk with people regarding why something happened to them and why it was their fault. Most people still don't get it. It basically goes along with the degradation of common sense, and the proliferation of the mindset that you should not have to be held responsible for your own actions.
Why is your teenage son out of control and swearing at you? It has to do with the fact that you're an alcoholic and he's sick and tired of coming home and finding you passed out. You're the problem, stop drinking and this will stop happening.
Why did I call your poor child a dirtbag oxygen-thief? He's 17, was driving without a license, prowling cars in an upscale neighborhood he had no business being in, was breaking into cars, ran from police, swore at us, had narcotics, has stolen property in his vehicle, is in a gang and this is the 5th time we've arrested him. Department policy prohibits me from using "unprofessional language", so dirtbag oxygen-thief was the best word I could come up with.
Why did your GPS get jacked out of your car? How about not leaving your car parked outside overnight with the doors unlocked..
Are the teenage prankster vandals that threw a single egg at your house going to come back and break in and attack you? Probably.
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Old 09-10-2011, 01:42 PM   #18
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No one should ever be made to carry a gun.

What might not be a bad idea though, is to make a law that a pharmacy must have an armed guard stationed during business hours. State licensed armed security guard.

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Old 09-10-2011, 03:45 PM   #19
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What might not be a bad idea though, is to make a law that a pharmacy must have an armed guard stationed during business hours. State licensed armed security guard.

Not a bad idea but with the way everyone flails about 'budget crises' it probably wouldn't get off the ground.
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:47 PM   #20
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No one should ever be made to carry a gun.

What might not be a bad idea though, is to make a law that a pharmacy must have an armed guard stationed during business hours. State licensed armed security guard.

Oh no, I meant that the state must, by law, ALLOW a pharmacist to carry if they choose, since they have stuff behind that counter that these crackheads kill for and it's worth stealing.
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