E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Forced Induction Forum Sponsored by Active Autowerke

Forced Induction Forum Sponsored by Active Autowerke
Discuss supercharging, turbocharging and even nitrous and water injection here.
Sponsored by Active Autowerke

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-11-2013, 01:40 PM   #1
Twin_Turbo_S54
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 657
My Ride: M3
Head Lift S54

Been reading / receiving pms about S54 head lift problem.

Even 8,5:1 compressed S54s easily lift the head at the end of a 0-170 mph test if not built properly.

Its a matter of total combustion pressure and the total time under load.
The longer you drive the more stress.

You do not need a 11,5 compression S54 to get the head lifted, as I wrote 8,5:1 compressed S54s lift easily when you push till 170-180 mph. (remember HPF's top speed trial video where the coolant needle moved to the right side, overheated.... thats what I mean by prolonged drive under boost)

11 mm diameter L19 studs should be torqued as per BMW M3 head bolt specs.

1/2" studs cause cracks around the water passages, oil passages.
Simple, 1/2" studs have more clamping force compared to 11 mm L19s but the block is not strong enough to accomodate 1/2" studs.

I have cut S54 block to see weak points and the distance between water passages and bore is not strong enough and easily crack with 1/2" studs.

Do not use the ARP L19s more than two times. Second use is the final use....

Use the proper lube for studs.

Start torquing studs following bmw's sequence, starting from the middle.....

Knock: check your knock logs. Why? Knock causes excessive combustion pressures which in turn help the studs flex.

Check your ingition maps and adjsut safely.

Cam timing: playing around the cam timing, Vanos, does miracles, decrease combustion chamber pressures, by increasing overlap.

Even if you could have welded head to block, the load causes other damages:

- premature bearing failure
- forged connecting rod failure

The total load/total combustion pressure has to work against some parts.

So even if the head does not lift, other components get damaged on high compression S54s. Head lift acts like a fuse, better than rod damage triggering holes in the block.
__________________
E46 M3 Sedan All Wheel Drive Twin Turbo 1200 whp
E46 M3 Coupe Turbo 60-130 mph 4,2 seconds (2011)
E46 330 xi Mora Metallic
Twin_Turbo_S54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Ads by Google

Guests, get your FREE E46Fanatics.com membership to remove this ad.
Old 10-13-2013, 06:19 PM   #2
being3
Modded ///Member
 
being3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: British Columbia, Canada eh
Posts: 1,152
My Ride: Turbo M3 7168 27PSI
Send a message via Skype™ to being3
Head Lift S54

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin_Turbo_S54 View Post
Been reading / receiving pms about S54 head lift problem.

Even 8,5:1 compressed S54s easily lift the head at the end of a 0-170 mph test if not built properly.

Its a matter of total combustion pressure and the total time under load.
The longer you drive the more stress.

You do not need a 11,5 compression S54 to get the head lifted, as I wrote 8,5:1 compressed S54s lift easily when you push till 170-180 mph. (remember HPF's top speed trial video where the coolant needle moved to the right side, overheated.... thats what I mean by prolonged drive under boost)

11 mm diameter L19 studs should be torqued as per BMW M3 head bolt specs.

1/2" studs cause cracks around the water passages, oil passages.
Simple, 1/2" studs have more clamping force compared to 11 mm L19s but the block is not strong enough to accomodate 1/2" studs.

I have cut S54 block to see weak points and the distance between water passages and bore is not strong enough and easily crack with 1/2" studs.

Do not use the ARP L19s more than two times. Second use is the final use....

Use the proper lube for studs.

Start torquing studs following bmw's sequence, starting from the middle.....

Knock: check your knock logs. Why? Knock causes excessive combustion pressures which in turn help the studs flex.

Check your ingition maps and adjsut safely.

Cam timing: playing around the cam timing, Vanos, does miracles, decrease combustion chamber pressures, by increasing overlap.

Even if you could have welded head to block, the load causes other damages:

- premature bearing failure
- forged connecting rod failure

The total load/total combustion pressure has to work against some parts.

So even if the head does not lift, other components get damaged on high compression S54s. Head lift acts like a fuse, better than rod damage triggering holes in the block.
Really good info to know... Thank u for sharing ur knowledge


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
"Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall. Torque is how far you go through it."
being3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2013, 02:20 PM   #3
bmech211
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 14
My Ride: '06 Carbon Black M3
WOW, that's pretty interesting. At what boost pressure are people experiencing head lift? Any damage to the cooling system due to 'coolant push'? Does the issue lie exclusively with the block or could the combustion chamber wall thickness have played a role as well?

Man, that's got to be a lot of boost!! 28psi on an 8.5:1 CR has roughly the same dynamic compression as 8psi on 11.5:1 CR.

Sorry for all the questions, just really curious that's all.
__________________

"Do or do not, there is no try"

Last edited by bmech211; 10-14-2013 at 02:25 PM.
bmech211 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2013, 03:23 PM   #4
Twin_Turbo_S54
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 657
My Ride: M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmech211 View Post
WOW, that's pretty interesting. At what boost pressure are people experiencing head lift? Any damage to the cooling system due to 'coolant push'?

Man, that's got to be a lot of boost!! 28psi on an 8.5:1 CR has roughly the same dynamic compression as 8psi on 11.5:1 CR.

Just really curious that's all.

If the lift can be detected at its early stages only head gasket is damaged.

If the lift cannot be detected early enough even the radiator is blown to death.

Most severe case: bores crack as if a lazer gun has cut the bores from deck a couple of inches down.


Big boys on Supra scene are running 60-90 psi on 10-11 compression these days. This information is from piston / rod manufacturer.

The boost that we are running is "baby boost" compared to Supras. Keep in mind Supra platform evolves for the last 13 years.

I would like S54 platform to evolve and thats why I started this topic.
__________________
E46 M3 Sedan All Wheel Drive Twin Turbo 1200 whp
E46 M3 Coupe Turbo 60-130 mph 4,2 seconds (2011)
E46 330 xi Mora Metallic
Twin_Turbo_S54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 02:24 PM   #5
Twin_Turbo_S54
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 657
My Ride: M3
Head lift acts sometimes like a "fuse".

In the following carnage, head DID NOT lift, head was almost sticking to the S54block as if was welded, but guess what happened, Windows opened on the sides of the S54 block. This carnage was 2 1/2 years ago with big shot nitrous.







So even if the head lift issue is fixed the block is the weak point...
__________________
E46 M3 Sedan All Wheel Drive Twin Turbo 1200 whp
E46 M3 Coupe Turbo 60-130 mph 4,2 seconds (2011)
E46 330 xi Mora Metallic
Twin_Turbo_S54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 11:56 PM   #6
strykermec
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: colorado
Posts: 17
My Ride: 2002 m3
Do you think this could be fixed with over sized valves and a good port and polish?
strykermec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2014, 05:09 AM   #7
Twin_Turbo_S54
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 657
My Ride: M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by strykermec View Post
Do you think this could be fixed with over sized valves and a good port and polish?
My S54s have overize valves and ported heads. These have no effect on head lift.

Head lift is due to the combustion pressure pushing the head upwards.

Solutions:

less boost or

same boost but different clamping techniques.
__________________
E46 M3 Sedan All Wheel Drive Twin Turbo 1200 whp
E46 M3 Coupe Turbo 60-130 mph 4,2 seconds (2011)
E46 330 xi Mora Metallic
Twin_Turbo_S54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 06:21 AM   #8
02PRUV
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,802
My Ride: E46 M3 Turbo
My fix was cheaper, easier and more reliable................................LSx LOL

Mert I found these issues years ago too and figured it was all going to be big time and money to push more power so I gave up with the S54.
__________________
Rides:

BMW E46 M3 Turbo 570rwhp @18psi (old setup)
BMW E46 M3 LSX 427ci 800hp N/A
Ultima GTR LSX 440ci 800hp N/A
VY SS Ute Turbo 1004.6rwhp @ 28psi E85
Ford Escort Mk2 2JZGTE 600rwhp @14 psi
04 Yamaha R1 154.3rwhp
ISUZU FZR550 tilt tray (GT35 Turbo)
02PRUV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 06:43 AM   #9
Commanderwiggin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 3,864
My Ride: 900rwhp Turbo M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by 02PRUV View Post
My fix was cheaper, easier and more reliable................................LSx LOL
Show me on the doll where he touched you...
__________________
Commanderwiggin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 08:37 AM   #10
BDUB328I
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 1,455
My Ride: bmw 328i sedan (E46)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
Show me on the doll where he touched you...
to far?
__________________
BDUB328I is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 12:45 PM   #11
Twin_Turbo_S54
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 657
My Ride: M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by 02PRUV View Post
My fix was cheaper, easier and more reliable................................LSx LOL

Mert I found these issues years ago too and figured it was all going to be big time and money to push more power so I gave up with the S54.


Allan, I know what you mean.

I am at a point where I cant stop anymore 4 x M3s, all twin turbo...

I tought about the XM3 Project, AWD M3 TT. I could have bought a GTR, "purchase" best and fastest parts and call it a day. However that would not make it a hobby. Instead I do enjoy every phase of my builds, so its a hobby for me. I mean even dreaming of and planning on M3 TTs make me feel good
__________________
E46 M3 Sedan All Wheel Drive Twin Turbo 1200 whp
E46 M3 Coupe Turbo 60-130 mph 4,2 seconds (2011)
E46 330 xi Mora Metallic
Twin_Turbo_S54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 01:41 PM   #12
BDUB328I
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 1,455
My Ride: bmw 328i sedan (E46)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin_Turbo_S54 View Post
Allan, I know what you mean.

I am at a point where I cant stop anymore 4 x M3s, all twin turbo...

I tought about the XM3 Project, AWD M3 TT. I could have bought a GTR, "purchase" best and fastest parts and call it a day. However that would not make it a hobby. Instead I do enjoy every phase of my builds, so its a hobby for me. I mean even dreaming of and planning on M3 TTs make me feel good
I know exactly how you feel. although I'm not on your level just thinking about driving my s54 sedan makes me feel good.

have you ever had a dream that your driving the xm3? then wake up and realize its in pieces and wont be drivable for a while... those are the worst

sorry for off topic.

So are there any other options to prevent the head lift other than what you already mentioned? would a sleeved block change anything?

how can we change the block to make it bullet proof? get one custom made out of another material (assuming money is not an issue)?
__________________

Last edited by BDUB328I; 02-17-2014 at 01:42 PM.
BDUB328I is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 04:36 PM   #13
Twin_Turbo_S54
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 657
My Ride: M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDUB328I View Post
I know exactly how you feel. although I'm not on your level just thinking about driving my s54 sedan makes me feel good.

have you ever had a dream that your driving the xm3? then wake up and realize its in pieces and wont be drivable for a while... those are the worst

sorry for off topic.

So are there any other options to prevent the head lift other than what you already mentioned? would a sleeved block change anything?

how can we change the block to make it bullet proof? get one custom made out of another material (assuming money is not an issue)?

Yes there were times I even daydreamed.

Then came the night I drove, full throttled XM3. 2-3 full throttle runs on slippery surface and I was close to orgasm

A better block, hmm did someone say a bulletproof S54 BLOCK?

I ve made some research but the cost is not low.

All prices are GBP.


Hi Mert
We have reviewed the pictures and have arrived at some very budget costs for reverse engineering the 6 cylinder block. We would recommend using a CGI (compacted graphite iron) material that we cast and use in very high performance cylinder heads and block as we feel this would give the best opportunity to achieve the structural properties that you require for the performance output that you are looking to achieve. I have attached a short explanation below.

Budget cost based upon pictures only. A firm cost would be given after receipt of a sample block.
Reverse engineering pattern 60,000 to 80,000
Inspection of Block to original 5000
Casting simulation and sampling 18000
Casting cost manufactured in CGI 3500 each (Min batch 5 off)
Machining cost 5500 each (Min batch 5 off
Machine Tooling Fixture Programming 30,000 to 35,000



This is like 150.000 GBP = 250.000 USD for 5 blockssszzzz

50.000 for 1Billet S54 block.

I do daydream of a billet S54 block
__________________
E46 M3 Sedan All Wheel Drive Twin Turbo 1200 whp
E46 M3 Coupe Turbo 60-130 mph 4,2 seconds (2011)
E46 330 xi Mora Metallic
Twin_Turbo_S54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use