Trevor's GTX35R Z4M Build -Lutz Performance-

Originally Posted by MarcusLSB

Take my money!

First off, I laughed for at least 10min when I first checked the thread this morning. You have a special talent for finding these GIF's

More importantly though, it's not about the money spent on the project. It's the caring enough to do EVERYTHING just as you want it, not leaving anything untouched, and doing everything to the best of your ability. Many things could have been done differently here, with much less expense, yielding the same outcome, but that clearly wasn't the goal. It's been a pleasure building this car for you guys, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate that you chose me to do the job, especially bringing the car all the way from Cali to FL. Plenty of very talented fabricators and shops between us without a doubt. Thank you again to both you and Trevor for letting me make your vision come to life, it's been a pleasure!

-Shawn-

Marcus, my iPhone pic you posted is not acceptable quality for this thread, so I took these =D

Wow! that's on hell of a nice job on those calipers!

Sweet baby Jesus that's some awesome work!!!!

Can't wait to see the results on this build, this car has the makings of the best S54 turbo set-up on this planet!!!!

Originally Posted by e30polak

Sweet baby Jesus that's some awesome work!!!!

Can't wait to see the results on this build, this car has the makings of the best S54 turbo set-up on this planet!!!!

What are you doing over here Polak! Go back to BFC! (j/k, welcome!)

Originally Posted by MarcusLSB

What are you doing over here Polak! Go back to BFC! (j/k, welcome!)

Haha.
Polak - what is Castro bringing to shift sector?

Originally Posted by A4RingedONE8T

He's not 10 min from us With the 35R on this setup, even billet wheel, 1.06 a/r, 600whp is going to be the max it will see right now even with the turbo balls deep. It should have no problem supporting that, what more than that I don't know, its just my guess. Two 044's with two separate 6an lines to the rail, I really don't think they'd have a problem supporting to 4 digits.

With race gas and meth, two Bosch 044 pumps is probably fine. You may be able to get by with THREE 044's. To be easy on the pump demands, you need FOUR 044 pumps to support 1000hp with E85 is Aeromotive's calculation.

You need at least 1250lph, to flow enough E85 to make 1000 HP according to the tech department at Areomotive. Even their Eliminator pump is on the edge according to them. They recommended TWO A1000's in parallel just to be safe and not stress the maximum limits of the pumps.
That is a bit overkill we thought. But they may have a point. We fortunately have the capability of opening a couple valves to add in an A1000 so it runs parallel with the Eliminator. I wont be at 1000HP so I likely will not need the extra volume. But it is available.

A single Eliminator rated at 1250lph will deliver 900 some pounds per hour of fuel. They calculate that 1090 pounds of fuel is necessary to reach 1000 HP with E85.
If Bosch 044 are rated at 300lph(is that correct?) then you would need four of them for E85.
It is extremely common to underestimate the sheer volume of E85 needed for the really big HP numbers. Even Aeromotive's fairly large Fuel Pressure Regulator is too small. It flows only 600lbs of the nearly 1100 bls/hr needed for E85. They insist the HUGE PRO EFI FPR is needed for E85 and four digits of HP.

Having a dual feed of two 6AN fittings coming in from both sides of the fuel rail is simply awesome. But consider what those really not so big Bosch pumps will max out at and what volume your FPR will pass.

My source is the mutliple emails and conversations with Aeromotive Tech Department. Even if they are not exactly perfect with their calculations, you have to think that the actual volume needed is massive and often more than most people think.
Its better to have too much pump working easily than not enough pump maxed out. I would definitely be running four 044's or far better a single A1000 and one 044. Use the Billet pump controller for the A1000 to keep the noise down.

But this build is still with a GTX3582R? Is that 700HP max? Two Bosh 044's will probably be OK. No problem on gas. If I were running a LOT of E85 and running the motor up often, I would love a third pump just to alleviate the strain on running two pumps. I think a dual 044 set up might be maxed out and possibly wear out faster than if you had three pumps not working so hard. That is simply my opinion on saving on wear and tear.

Congrats on an awesome build. Shawn;s fabrication work is incredible. I cant wait to see his tubular manis in action with some LARGER turbo chargers. They may totally change the face of turbo S54 efficiency and maximim HP output.

Shawn, I would just LOVE to see a nice fat hollow AFE air filter sitting right where you have that smallish K&N.

Originally Posted by Bdave

With race gas and meth, two Bosch 044 pumps is probably fine. You may be able to get by with THREE 044's. To be easy on the pump demands, you need FOUR 044 pumps to support 1000hp with E85 is Aeromotive's calculation.

You need at least 1250lph, to flow enough E85 to make 1000 HP according to the tech department at Areomotive. Even their Eliminator pump is on the edge according to them. They recommended TWO A1000's in parallel just to be safe and not stress the maximum limits of the pumps.
That is a bit overkill we thought. But they may have a point. We fortunately have the capability of opening a couple valves to add in an A1000 so it runs parallel with the Eliminator. I wont be at 1000HP so I likely will not need the extra volume. But it is available.

A single Eliminator rated at 1250lph will deliver 900 some pounds per hour of fuel. They calculate that 1090 pounds of fuel is necessary to reach 1000 HP with E85.
If Bosch 044 are rated at 300lph(is that correct?) then you would need four of them for E85.
It is extremely common to underestimate the sheer volume of E85 needed for the really big HP numbers. Even Aeromotive's fairly large Fuel Pressure Regulator is too small. It flows only 600lbs of the nearly 1100 bls/hr needed for E85. They insist the HUGE PRO EFI FPR is needed for E85 and four digits of HP.

Having a dual feed of two 6AN fittings coming in from both sides of the fuel rail is simply awesome. But consider what those really not so big Bosch pumps will max out at and what volume your FPR will pass.

My source is the mutliple emails and conversations with Aeromotive Tech Department. Even if they are not exactly perfect with their calculations, you have to think that the actual volume needed is massive and often more than most people think.
Its better to have too much pump working easily than not enough pump maxed out. I would definitely be running four 044's or possibly a single A1000 and one 044. Use the Billet pump controller for the A1000 to keep the noise down.

Many of us have made 1000hp on 3 04x pumps. Trevors car on two pumps will hit his goals w/o issue. Later on if he decides to build the motor I'm sure he'll go high compression and still be fine on two pumps. The goals of this car are not dragging, more street occasional track use and the current setup meets that just fine.

Originally Posted by MarcusLSB

Many of us have made 1000hp on 3 04x pumps. Trevors car on two pumps will hit his goals w/o issue. Later on if he decides to build the motor I'm sure he'll go high compression and still be fine on two pumps. The goals of this car are not dragging, more street occasional track use and the current setup meets that just fine.

I thought 3 would be adequate, but its my thoughts that they are pretty maxed out on E85 at four digits. I personally would run a fourth pump or a different set up, just so the fuel system isnt strained. Its me being overly cautious I guess.

When just one of those three pumps starts getting weak you could run into problems fast. I like having a LOT of pump in reserve. I think its safer for everything in the long run. It doesn't break the ban to add a little more pump volume. That's all.

Originally Posted by Bdave

I thought 3 would be adequate, but its my thoughts that they are pretty maxed out on E85 at four digits. I personally would run a fourth pump or a different set up, just so the fuel system isnt strained. Its me being overly cautious I guess.

When just one of those three pumps starts getting weak you could run into problems fast. I like having a LOT of pump in reserve. I think its safer for everything in the long run. It doesn't break the ban to add a little more pump volume. That's all.

The way its setup in my car is additional pumps only come online at certain rpm's.. I cannot recall the rpm triggers at the moment.. but with the ProEFI I believe you can trigger secondary pumps based on fuel pressure (when fuel pressure drops turn on the secondary pump), boost or rpm.. maybe other variables as well.. you don't want to run 4 pumps (in parallel or series for that matter) at all times on a car that only needs them on occasion...

Maybe I'm completely off basis but regulating 4 pumps all the time seems like a bad idea.. you'd likely over run your fpr.

Originally Posted by MarcusLSB

The way its setup in my car is additional pumps only come online at certain rpm's.. I cannot recall the rpm triggers at the moment.. but with the ProEFI I believe you can trigger secondary pumps based on fuel pressure (when fuel pressure drops turn on the secondary pump), boost or rpm.. maybe other variables as well.. you don't want to run 4 pumps (in parallel or series for that matter) at all times on a car that only needs them on occasion...

Maybe I'm completely off basis but regulating 4 pumps all the time seems like a bad idea.. you'd likely over run your fpr.

Pump triggers? That is so cool! I love it! No way. I would never run 4 pumps. I was using that as an illustration of flow.

Yes, I know I wrote somewhere a lot depends on if you plan on running the motor maxed out a lot (Drag racing, lots ot HPDE, Lots of Mexico runs).
Ordinary street use with occasional pulls will call for having much less pump in reserve since you wont be stressing the fuel system very often. That all plays into how certain systems are designed. Yes, I totally agree.

For a 1000 HP I would run a single eliminator on a Billet pump controller with a Pro Series Areomotive FPR. That can go from idle right to 1000HP no problem. The controler hanldles the pump well. You cant over flow that FPR with a single 1250lph pump.
Another option is a single Bosch 044 and an A1000 on a Billet pump controller. Both in parallel. The A1000 in the trunk with sound shield or under the car.
You have to run the same PRO Series EFI FPR. The normal FPRs stop flowing well after 600lbs/hr of the 1090lbs/hr of E85 needed to sustain 1000hp.

If youn have the Pro EFI ECU from Jason,. then the possibilities for even more control and quiet are possible. I like that feature! I probably would take advantage of that feature and design the fuel pump set up differently than what I wrote above. Those big pumps, even with fuel pump controllers can be a bit noisy. Having smaller pumps and the ability to shut one of them down completely is a very cool way to go. I really like that.

Note to all: Do not confuse Aeromotive's Pro Series EFI Fuel Pump Regulator(FPR) with Jasons ECU called PRO-EFI....two totally different things.

I've run four 044s since 2004, plus two Carter lift pumps and the intank.

Originally Posted by MrBlonde

I've run four 044s since 2004, plus two Carter lift pumps and the intank.

Kenny,

Are they switched/triggered or are they all in all the time?

Originally Posted by MrBlonde

I've run four 044s since 2004, plus two Carter lift pumps and the intank.

This is a good example of somebody accomplishing the same goal in a differnt manner than I would or Marcus would. It illustrates that we should be more open minded about methods that we would not consider using that do work for some people.

Originally Posted by MarcusLSB

Kenny,

Are they switched/triggered or are they all in all the time?

I would very much like to know the answer to this too. I imagine there are many other ways to trigger a multi pump set up other than owning a Pro-EFI ECU. Although it does sound easy to set up using the Pro-EFI.

MrBlonde, that is six pumps. How many have had to be replaced since 2004? How hard was it to troubleshoot and identify the bad pump(s)?
This is SORT of on topic as we are discussing pros and cons of several smaller pumps vs fewer larger pumps. Yeah, it's a stretch..

Originally Posted by Bdave

This is a good example of somebody accomplishing the same goal in a differnt manner than I would or Marcus would. It illustrates that we should be more open minded about methods that we would not consider using that do work for some people.



I would very much like to know the answer to this too. I imagine there are many other ways to trigger a multi pump set up other than owning a Pro-EFI ECU. Although it does sound easy to set up using the Pro-EFI.

MrBlonde, that is six pumps. How many have had to be replaced since 2004? How hard was it to troubleshoot and identify the bad pump(s)?
This is SORT of on topic as we are discussing pros and cons of several smaller pumps vs fewer larger pumps. Yeah, it's a stretch..

I don't want to clutter up Trevor's thread any more but back in the day people tended to trigger secondary pumps via a hobbs switch.

Originally Posted by MarcusLSB

Kenny,

Are they switched/triggered or are they all in all the time?

All on Marcus.

Originally Posted by Bdave

MrBlonde, that is six pumps. How many have had to be replaced since 2004? How hard was it to troubleshoot and identify the bad pump(s)?
This is SORT of on topic as we are discussing pros and cons of several smaller pumps vs fewer larger pumps. Yeah, it's a stretch..

My car has not seen much usage since 2004 so bear that in mind with my answers. One Carter lift pump dropped out, easy to identify. These ****ers are noisy.

If I was building the car today I would have a good solid look at the latest fuel pump technology and determine if my current setup is still the way to go. I've got twin surge tanks and then through a large regular to custom fuel rails, braided lines all through.

You should only have as much pump as you need or else you're just heating the fuel as it travels forward and then back again.

Once you step up to methanol or E85 obviously your needs increase.

Originally Posted by MarcusLSB

I don't want to clutter up Trevor's thread any more but back in the day people tended to trigger secondary pumps via a hobbs switch.

Yeah good idea and also since I moved to Motec M800 in 2006 there are all sorts of ECU based options too.

But who needs that much pump anyway? There are very few street cars that require that much fuel no matter what their owners think.

bump for updates anything loved this build so much

Just as I posted in Basar's thread:

"Couldn't agree more! We have hit the same issues as HPF, car starts, idles, drives great with minimal load on the car and slight throttle inputs. More than that, it's a big no go. We have found, at least the start of, a few of the issues and how to remedy them doing some tuning to the stock DME. I'm not sure how far it will need to go but we are on this path, and hopefully a path to getting the ProEFI Z4M's to see some boost. We haven't given up, or made excuses, there are definite issues with tuneability and we are combining some of the best brains in the business to try to remedy the issue. No updates from us is a good update honestly, that means we haven't been stumped. I can't say when but I am 100% confident that our Z4M with a properly tuned stock DME and properly tuned ProEFI can produce some great results! "

-Shawn-