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Old 12-11-2011, 03:47 PM   #1
George Type-S
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Question Car starts then dies - FIXED! Solution inside!

The car in question is a 2002 320i.

It would start and after a few seconds (15-20 seconds) it shuts itself off. When I started it for a second time, the entire car shakes, then dies again. On the third try, it started and stayed on, shook very little, but after 10 seconds of driving it, it stopped shaking and drove normally. I brought it back home and haven't started it since until I figure out what's wrong, I don't want to do more damage to it (I'm hoping theirs nothing severe)

Things that I've noticed/replaced:
* This only happens in the cold. (when it's near 0 degrees or below) Apparently this happened before, but my sister thought nothing of it last winter...
* The IACV has been removed and cleaned
* Intake piping is cleaned
* Air filter is new
* the car had a half of tank of gas
* Oil change was done last week along with a new oil filter gasket
* Coolant flush was done last week at BMW
* Installed new intake manifold gasket
* Replaced S.A.P. hose


I did some research and all that's left is the Fuel Pump, but nobody mentionned if this is due to the cold weather. The car ran fine all summer and all of last week (weather was 8-10 degrees)

A wild guess is that it could very well be the fuel pump since more is needed in cold temperatures, if that is the case, where can I get one or order one, besides the dealer? (located in Canada)

Any help is appreciated! Thanks!


Edit:
So we took the car to the BMW dealer and did the following repair:
Part numbers from BMW Laval (Canada):
11-12-9-070-990 Gasket Kit
11-12-1-437-395 Rubber Seal x 15
11-42-1-719-855 Gasket
11-61-7-534-237 Vent Pipe, Connecting Line & Pressure Valve
11-15-7-532-629 Vent Hose
11-61-7-504-536 Return Pipe
11-43-7-565-437 Dip Stick Tube
32-41-6-764-725 Pre-Hose Assembly
11-42-7-512-300 Oil Filter
92-33-2-201-500 Synthetic Oil 5W30 x 7
32-41-1-093-596 Gasket Ring x 2
11-43-1-740-045 O-Ring x 2
61-13-1-377-134 Cable Strap


The CEL went away and the car worked fine for a day or so...

Took it back to the dealer, they checked the codes which was a misfire cylinder #4 and #5. They did a smoke test and found a microscopic hole on the valve cover.

They replaced the valve cover, the CEL is gone and the car runs fine!! A big thank you to everyone that helped!!

Last edited by George Type-S; 02-16-2012 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 12-11-2011, 03:58 PM   #2
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SAP? Check hose from pump to valve. If clogged, replace hose and remove gunk that might be stuck in the valve.
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Old 12-11-2011, 04:00 PM   #3
George Type-S
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmax View Post
SAP? Check hose from pump to valve. If clogged, replace hose and remove gunk that might be stuck in the valve.
What's SAP? sorry


I'll check it tomorrow, it's dark out now, but thanks for the quick reply!
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Old 12-11-2011, 04:09 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by George Type-S View Post
What's SAP? sorry


I'll check it tomorrow, it's dark out now, but thanks for the quick reply!
you'll figure it out soon, I'm sure.

If the hose is squishy, it may have corroded internally and sent this gunk into valve. SAP comes on only when the car is started cold...for emissions.

I had this happen to me and your symptoms match mine...not saying your cause is the same, but hope so!
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Old 12-11-2011, 04:10 PM   #5
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If you need a fuel pump you can get one from CarQuest or even order on Amazon.
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Old 12-11-2011, 04:25 PM   #6
George Type-S
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmax View Post
you'll figure it out soon, I'm sure.

If the hose is squishy, it may have corroded internally and sent this gunk into valve. SAP comes on only when the car is started cold...for emissions.

I had this happen to me and your symptoms match mine...not saying your cause is the same, but hope so!
Secondary air pump Gotcha! I would have never checked that, but I will tomorrow, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCaptain View Post
If you need a fuel pump you can get one from CarQuest or even order on Amazon.
Any other places? For example, most Acura owners go to acuraoemparts.com is there a site like that, which is highly recommended, for BMW's?

Thanks!
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Old 12-11-2011, 04:42 PM   #7
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Great place for BMW parts is AutoHausAZ.com or PelicanParts.com.
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:01 PM   #8
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Well after spending $530 on changing the intake manifold gasket, the problem came back...

All that's left is the fuel pump
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:22 PM   #9
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When you replaced sap hose, did you look for gunk build up in the valve. It really does sound like the symptom I had.

You said you cleaned the intake boots, but not replace them? You replaced the intake mani gasket but not intake boots?
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmax View Post
When you replaced sap hose, did you look for gunk build up in the valve. It really does sound like the symptom I had.

You said you cleaned the intake boots, but not replace them? You replaced the intake mani gasket but not intake boots?
The sap hose was almost fine, a little bit weaker than the new one (when you squeeze on it), but that's expected after 10 years of use, however it was clean inside and no rips either.

I don't know if the intake boots were replaced or not, my sister took the car to a random shop (mistake, I know) and they said they changed the intake manifold gasket (that's what written down on the paperwork).The car did work for a few weeks. I did clean the piping on the intake in the summer when I had to clean the IACV.

She's fed up with it and taking to BMW this Friday to get it serviced. She doesn't want this problem to persist.

Last edited by George Type-S; 01-21-2012 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:36 PM   #11
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I meant the end of the hose that connects to the valve on side of engine...the internal part of the hose on mine corroded and clogged the valve. I removed a ball of gunk from it clogging the valve. That your car runs after you get it going made me think of my clog too...exactly how mine reacted until I replaced my hose and cleaned out the valve.

Cleaning intake boot wont' help if there's a tear. If it's large, the car will compensate by adding more fuel when it figures out its very lean...might not have enough fuel to get the mixture right. The fuel filter could be clogged...but that the shop did an intake mani gasket seems odd.

Here we can go to Autozone and get free code readings. You should get your codes and post them...and sounds like you should stop going to the shop that doesn't have a clue.
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmax View Post
I meant the end of the hose that connects to the valve on side of engine...the internal part of the hose on mine corroded and clogged the valve. I removed a ball of gunk from it clogging the valve. That your car runs after you get it going made me think of my clog too...exactly how mine reacted until I replaced my hose and cleaned out the valve.

Cleaning intake boot wont' help if there's a tear. If it's large, the car will compensate by adding more fuel when it figures out its very lean...might not have enough fuel to get the mixture right. The fuel filter could be clogged...but that the shop did an intake mani gasket seems odd.

Here we can go to Autozone and get free code readings. You should get your codes and post them...and sounds like you should stop going to the shop that doesn't have a clue.
We don't have anything like Autozone here. And I'm well aware of that she shouldn't have went there, but what's done is done.

I see what you mean by cleaning that piece, I'll search for a DIY on how to clean that entire valve unit and check it tomorrow, it's cold too so it will be a good time to test it. Thank you again for all your help!!
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:47 PM   #13
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Buy a fuel pressure guage at Can Tire for $60 and eliminate one of the possibilities. I've replaced two fuel pumps on my car so I wouldn't rule it out without evidence.
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:49 PM   #14
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It appears from the OP first post the SAP hose was already replaced.

I do not think you will do any harm to the car. Usually if it is missing badly, turn the key off, wait 30 seconds and restart the car and chances the misfires will clear. Ask me how I know!

Here is what I would do if it was my car. I would start by changing the DISA Oring, $12 on ebay. I would do this first. If this does not help, I would possibly consider changing the DISA, about $175??

You really need to get the engine codes read and posted here so we can get a better idea for sure on what is happening.

I see the CCV was cleaned, what about the lower CCV hose, was is replaced.

Also was the IAC connection hose checked and replaced when the intake gasket was replaced.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:32 PM   #15
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I agree with the previous post to some extent.

I was having the exact same problem with my '04 330Ci just last week. Whenever the temp was around 25 or below the engine would be very difficult to start. When I turned the key the engine would rarely start and if it did then it would idle horribly and at times it would just shut off completely. If I feathered the gas pedal I maybe could get the engine to stay on long enough to warm up but most of the time the engine stalled out.

I was certain that I had a vacuum leak that was sneaking by the MAF and thus the ICV could not control the idle correctly. After the smoke test I found the lower intake boot had a big tear. I attached a picture of the tear to show that it was hard to see from up top but easy to find once the boot was removed.

But my problem was still not solved. I was still have cold start issues after the lower intake boot was replaced. So I kept looking over the intake to see if I can see any signs of a vacuum leak when I noticed that there was a little moisture around the DISA valve where it seats into the intake. I took out the DISA valve and noticed the gasket was flat and wet. So I replaced the gasket with a firm new one and reinstalled the valve.

After replacing that gasket I tried starting the engine the other night in 20 degree weather and the engine fired right up, settled down the idle and stayed smooth throughout the warm up.

Something as simple as a vacuum leak, cracked hoses and gasket was wreaking havoc on my cold start ups and idle.

Hopefully this information may help you and you find the solution to your cold idle problem. Good luck!
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:49 PM   #16
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-E46-330-...item3cb2839be4

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...595&highlight=

Last edited by jfoj; 01-22-2012 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:28 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Type-S View Post
We don't have anything like Autozone here. And I'm well aware of that she shouldn't have went there, but what's done is done.

I see what you mean by cleaning that piece, I'll search for a DIY on how to clean that entire valve unit and check it tomorrow, it's cold too so it will be a good time to test it. Thank you again for all your help!!
I just used a dental pick to pull the gunk out...it was right there at the entrance to the inlet. I don't think you need to remove the entire valve--see Bavauto for a paper about the sap and diagnosing it.

Anyway, I also think that you should probably replace your lower intake boot, as that's the most common intake leak we have, and seems like that's what your shop was going after by doing intake mani gasket...which, as I mentioned, I don't think I've ever read about that going bad here.

If you don't have places that read codes for free, it might be worth it to pay whatever to get codes...cheapest would be finding a Fanatic with Peake/computer in your regional forum.
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:56 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmax View Post
I just used a dental pick to pull the gunk out...it was right there at the entrance to the inlet. I don't think you need to remove the entire valve--see Bavauto for a paper about the sap and diagnosing it.

Anyway, I also think that you should probably replace your lower intake boot, as that's the most common intake leak we have, and seems like that's what your shop was going after by doing intake mani gasket...which, as I mentioned, I don't think I've ever read about that going bad here.

If you don't have places that read codes for free, it might be worth it to pay whatever to get codes...cheapest would be finding a Fanatic with Peake/computer in your regional forum.
I'll try everything listed here, that DISA ring looked fine the last time I took it out (which was this past summer), but I'll get cracking right now and I'll post up whatever I find that could be wrong.

Thanks again for all the help!
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:58 AM   #19
George Type-S
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renboy View Post
Buy a fuel pressure guage at Can Tire for $60 and eliminate one of the possibilities. I've replaced two fuel pumps on my car so I wouldn't rule it out without evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
It appears from the OP first post the SAP hose was already replaced.

I do not think you will do any harm to the car. Usually if it is missing badly, turn the key off, wait 30 seconds and restart the car and chances the misfires will clear. Ask me how I know!

Here is what I would do if it was my car. I would start by changing the DISA Oring, $12 on ebay. I would do this first. If this does not help, I would possibly consider changing the DISA, about $175??

You really need to get the engine codes read and posted here so we can get a better idea for sure on what is happening.

I see the CCV was cleaned, what about the lower CCV hose, was is replaced.

Also was the IAC connection hose checked and replaced when the intake gasket was replaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickvjr View Post
I agree with the previous post to some extent.

I was having the exact same problem with my '04 330Ci just last week. Whenever the temp was around 25 or below the engine would be very difficult to start. When I turned the key the engine would rarely start and if it did then it would idle horribly and at times it would just shut off completely. If I feathered the gas pedal I maybe could get the engine to stay on long enough to warm up but most of the time the engine stalled out.

I was certain that I had a vacuum leak that was sneaking by the MAF and thus the ICV could not control the idle correctly. After the smoke test I found the lower intake boot had a big tear. I attached a picture of the tear to show that it was hard to see from up top but easy to find once the boot was removed.

But my problem was still not solved. I was still have cold start issues after the lower intake boot was replaced. So I kept looking over the intake to see if I can see any signs of a vacuum leak when I noticed that there was a little moisture around the DISA valve where it seats into the intake. I took out the DISA valve and noticed the gasket was flat and wet. So I replaced the gasket with a firm new one and reinstalled the valve.

After replacing that gasket I tried starting the engine the other night in 20 degree weather and the engine fired right up, settled down the idle and stayed smooth throughout the warm up.

Something as simple as a vacuum leak, cracked hoses and gasket was wreaking havoc on my cold start ups and idle.

Hopefully this information may help you and you find the solution to your cold idle problem. Good luck!
Thank you very much!! I'll go check all of this stuff now, but like I said just now, that DISA ring looked fine the last time I took it out, but thanks for all the help
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:22 AM   #20
George Type-S
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I took out the secondary air pump unit and the hoses, everything is clean, zero signs of dirt.

I took out the piping from the air intake, the piping is intact (just like how it was in the summer).

The air filter is dirty though, so I'll put a new one in before putting the car back together and I checked the DISA as you guys mentionned and I found this... I think the DISA is where I should have started

A simple DIY, since the one on this board says to do so much stuff for nothing. This is to REMOVE the Secondary Air Pump:

Start by using a flat tip screw driver and unscrew the ring that holds the big tube in place. (No photo, but it's a straight forward explanation)


Then remove these 3 bolts:



Unplug it and pull it out. That's it!


Secondary Air Pump is out:






I used Solidjake's DIY for the DISA removal. My DISA looks like this:




Last edited by George Type-S; 01-27-2012 at 11:23 AM.
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