First AR Build, Advice Needed!

I'm starting the same build actually but gonna start buy buying this kit then buying a lower receiver. What you guys think of this kit? Guy from work bought the same kit then bought a lower and that 300 recoil stock that makes it kinda fully automatic and I must say its a badass gun. I'm basically gonna replicate his build as far as parts and ect

http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/product...=5400&cat=1532

Please don't.

For two reasons-
1.) DPMS has a very bad reputation for quality and reliability. I say again, a very BAD reputation. I go to shooting courses and do my armorer update training, and I consistently talk to fellow cops and feds that have had problems with every DPMS they've ever laid their hands on. Right now, I'm seeing a malfunction rate of around 50%. I did a built a couple years ago with DPMS parts intentionally. I did an inspection on the parts and had to replace two small parts before installation because they were out of spec. I then had to modify the upper receiver and cut feed ramps into the upper receiver. A friend of mine is on one of the largest SWAT teams in the state, and they got (or were forcibly given, as they didn't make the decision themselves) new DPMS select-fire carbines. EVERY rifle malfunctioned right out of the box. The malfunctions were inconsistent, with some with failure to extract, some with failure to feed, some with failure to fire, and so forth. They had to replace every spring in every gun before the guns were able to be run reliably. Another agency got six new DPMS rifles, and the bolt gas rings shredded right out of it. The rifle went back to DPMS and was returned, and the rings shredded up and seized up the bolt again. Rifle was inspected and an armorer discovered that the bolts were not chromed inside, and the friction was shredding the gas rings. They put their CSO (community service officer- usually a college student) in a truck from the Minneapolis area and made him drive an hour up to St. Cloud to the DPMS factory and tell the people there to fix the problem and give them bolt carriers with chrome inside (which is proper mil-spec), and the situation repeated itself a third time. DPMS sent the rifles back with the CSO with NEW GAS RINGS only. The CSO didn't know any better. Finally, an armorer loaded up the guns and went up there a FOURTH time and demanded all new BCGs, or a refund. After some heated words and some issues, DPMS ultimately gave them new BCGs. The armorer then had to restake the carrier gas key screws, because DPMS cannot properly stake their gas key screws. I've never seen one properly staked. In fact, another metro agency here bought a couple new DPMS rifles for their squad cars, and during initial firing and testing of the rifles, several rifles had the BCGs literally fall apart IN THE GUN while firing. Gas keys were blown off and components on the bolt were damaged or missing.
With DPMS, you either get an "Okay" one, or a "Broken" one. The broken ones are typically only one or two parts away from being a functional gun, but you get to have the fun of figuring out what parts those are.
This does not include the numerous stories I hear of DPMS rifles that simply do not run, and they can't figure out why.

2.) that rifle kit is very basic, and antiquated. Specifically, you have an A1 upper that is worthless. It's an antiquated setup that should have died long ago. DPMS still wants to sell it, and it's idiotic. There is no reason to not get an A4/M4 upper receiver. The A1 has the fixed carry handle and A1 iron sights. You will have a lot of difficulty mounting any electronic sights on it. Additionally, you have a carbine without feed ramps in the upper receiver. DPMS offers an A3 upper receiver, which has the flattop that you can mount iron sights to, as well as any optic you choose. However, the A3 does not have feed ramps cut into it, and I can't figure out why DPMS still does not do this. Feed ramps improve feeding reliability. The A4 is the flattop upper with feed ramps in it. You can get them everywhere, as a lot of good places make them.

There are other options on the market that you should consider. What is your budget? How much is the MOST the you CAN spend?

Originally Posted by Reedo302

Please don't.



There are other options on the market that you should consider. How much is the MOST the you CAN spend?

^What he said. You'll probably spend more on that rifle than it would cost to buy one that is already assembled, a better value, and better quality.

Originally Posted by Reedo302

Please don't.

For two reasons-
1.) DPMS has a very bad reputation for quality and reliability. I say again, a very BAD reputation. I go to shooting courses and do my armorer update training, and I consistently talk to fellow cops and feds that have had problems with every DPMS they've ever laid their hands on. Right now, I'm seeing a malfunction rate of around 50%. I did a built a couple years ago with DPMS parts intentionally. I did an inspection on the parts and had to replace two small parts before installation because they were out of spec. I then had to modify the upper receiver and cut feed ramps into the upper receiver. A friend of mine is on one of the largest SWAT teams in the state, and they got (or were forcibly given, as they didn't make the decision themselves) new DPMS select-fire carbines. EVERY rifle malfunctioned right out of the box. The malfunctions were inconsistent, with some with failure to extract, some with failure to feed, some with failure to fire, and so forth. They had to replace every spring in every gun before the guns were able to be run reliably. Another agency got six new DPMS rifles, and the bolt gas rings shredded right out of it. The rifle went back to DPMS and was returned, and the rings shredded up and seized up the bolt again. Rifle was inspected and an armorer discovered that the bolts were not chromed inside, and the friction was shredding the gas rings. They put their CSO (community service officer- usually a college student) in a truck from the Minneapolis area and made him drive an hour up to St. Cloud to the DPMS factory and tell the people there to fix the problem and give them bolt carriers with chrome inside (which is proper mil-spec), and the situation repeated itself a third time. DPMS sent the rifles back with the CSO with NEW GAS RINGS only. The CSO didn't know any better. Finally, an armorer loaded up the guns and went up there a FOURTH time and demanded all new BCGs, or a refund. After some heated words and some issues, DPMS ultimately gave them new BCGs. The armorer then had to restake the carrier gas key screws, because DPMS cannot properly stake their gas key screws. I've never seen one properly staked. In fact, another metro agency here bought a couple new DPMS rifles for their squad cars, and during initial firing and testing of the rifles, several rifles had the BCGs literally fall apart IN THE GUN while firing. Gas keys were blown off and components on the bolt were damaged or missing.
With DPMS, you either get an "Okay" one, or a "Broken" one. The broken ones are typically only one or two parts away from being a functional gun, but you get to have the fun of figuring out what parts those are.
This does not include the numerous stories I hear of DPMS rifles that simply do not run, and they can't figure out why.

2.) that rifle kit is very basic, and antiquated. Specifically, you have an A1 upper that is worthless. It's an antiquated setup that should have died long ago. DPMS still wants to sell it, and it's idiotic. There is no reason to not get an A4/M4 upper receiver. The A1 has the fixed carry handle and A1 iron sights. You will have a lot of difficulty mounting any electronic sights on it. Additionally, you have a carbine without feed ramps in the upper receiver. DPMS offers an A3 upper receiver, which has the flattop that you can mount iron sights to, as well as any optic you choose. However, the A3 does not have feed ramps cut into it, and I can't figure out why DPMS still does not do this. Feed ramps improve feeding reliability. The A4 is the flattop upper with feed ramps in it. You can get them everywhere, as a lot of good places make them.

There are other options on the market that you should consider. What is your budget? How much is the MOST the you CAN spend?

You da man haha, seriously but my budget is about 600 for now I wanna buy it piece by piece and put it to gather because I'm in the process of modding my 330, modding my s1k, and remodeling my condo so moneys everywhere.. If you know any links of kits that are good quality that I can buy link them for me I'm willing to put together the upper and lower. Thanks again guys

Originally Posted by SB_RavenE46

You da man haha, seriously but my budget is about 600 for now I wanna buy it piece by piece and put it to gather because I'm in the process of modding my 330, modding my s1k, and remodeling my condo so moneys everywhere.. If you know any links of kits that are good quality that I can buy link them for me I'm willing to put together the upper and lower. Thanks again guys

Im not expert but I would go with something like :

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...ver&groupid=55

or

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...cmv-upper.html

+

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...build-kit.html

or

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...build-kit.html


+

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...ver&groupid=53

or

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...receivers.html



or heres a complete rifle kit then grab a lower

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...rifle-kit.html

Think of buying an AR like buying a used BMW M3. Say the average cost for a used 2006 E46 M3 ZCP is $29,000. You are looking, and you see one that is going for $21,000. Through general common sense, you know that there has got to be something wrong with that car. Damaged, a salvage title, bad transmission, needs a new engine, or something similar.
The same ideology needs to be applied to a new AR. If you have one AR that is significantly less expensive than the average cost of quality market brands, you should surmise that you will be losing something by dropping your price. There are some great rifles out there for under $1000, but in the $600 range, you will get a lot of junk. You get what you pay for. Buy once, cry once. It would be much more advisable for you to save up $200-$300 and get a better rifle, like a Spikes Tactical or a S&W M&P15. Don't cut corners just to save a buck, because you will pay for it later. If you want a BMW, you don't cheap out and buy a VW and expect to get the same thing. Likewise, you don't buy a DPMS and expect to get the same thing as a Colt or BCM. I don't consider the DPMS to be a budget rifle, I consider it to be a CHEAP rifle (build quality and cost). If you want a budget rifle- one that is less expensive but still good quality - look at getting a S&W M&P15 Sport. The Sport took a more expensive rifle of good quality and lowered the cost by removing some features. They didn't lower the quality, just eliminated some options. It is the only rifle I would recommend for the price range you are looking at, as it's the only one in that price range that is not a steaming pile. It's actually a good rifle for what it is.

SB_Raven, Its very simple to build with out a Kit. Plus your going to want to upgrade! If you trying to save money, shop around on the sponsored links on AR15.com. I have $275 in the lower and $550 in the upper, for a total of $825, not including sights and mags. I currently have 340 flawless rounds down my spikes rifle! Next for me is a Troy Free float rail with Leupold vx2 1-4x scope!

Selling my S&W M&P (non sport) AR 15 optics ready rifle. Thanks for the free plug Reedo

Originally Posted by Adam@Euro-Spec

Im not expert but I would go with something like :

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...ver&groupid=55

or

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...cmv-upper.html

+

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...build-kit.html

or

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...build-kit.html


+

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...ver&groupid=53

or

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...receivers.html



or heres a complete rifle kit then grab a lower

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...rifle-kit.html

thanks man I'll probly end up doing one of these options, really helpful links really thanks again

Originally Posted by Reedo302

Think of buying an AR like buying a used BMW M3. Say the average cost for a used 2006 E46 M3 ZCP is $29,000. You are looking, and you see one that is going for $21,000. Through general common sense, you know that there has got to be something wrong with that car. Damaged, a salvage title, bad transmission, needs a new engine, or something similar.
The same ideology needs to be applied to a new AR. If you have one AR that is significantly less expensive than the average cost of quality market brands, you should surmise that you will be losing something by dropping your price. There are some great rifles out there for under $1000, but in the $600 range, you will get a lot of junk. You get what you pay for. Buy once, cry once. It would be much more advisable for you to save up $200-$300 and get a better rifle, like a Spikes Tactical or a S&W M&P15. Don't cut corners just to save a buck, because you will pay for it later. If you want a BMW, you don't cheap out and buy a VW and expect to get the same thing. Likewise, you don't buy a DPMS and expect to get the same thing as a Colt or BCM. I don't consider the DPMS to be a budget rifle, I consider it to be a CHEAP rifle (build quality and cost). If you want a budget rifle- one that is less expensive but still good quality - look at getting a S&W M&P15 Sport. The Sport took a more expensive rifle of good quality and lowered the cost by removing some features. They didn't lower the quality, just eliminated some options. It is the only rifle I would recommend for the price range you are looking at, as it's the only one in that price range that is not a steaming pile. It's actually a good rifle for what it is.

Yea man I get what you mean exactly , I didn't think of it as being a cheap kit considering my friend from work has the same kit/gun and it looks and shoots great but I'll def end up doing another brand other then panther ... That m&p 15 sport looks Awesome by the way .

Reedo, every post I read from you is very well put. Seems you've been around AR's and guns in general quite a while. Keep up the informative info's for us noobs.

With that being said, I just recently finished my first build on my AR. I initially started out by wanting to spend no more than $700-800, but after all was said and done, i was $1400-1500 deep and counting... Now that I think of it, with the money I already spent I should of just saved a bit more and bought a LWRC GP or something...

I did a little research before buying my AR I decided to go with a complete rifle gear (M4 aggressor) lower and the complete Adams Arms (mid-length) upper gas piston set up. How reliable are these uppers from AA? From reviews i've read so far so good. What advice's would you recommend when taking it out to the range for the first time. I already purchased the BCM extractor upgrade kit (not yet installed) incase I'm out on the field and it FTE's on me.

I will be using AE .223 55gr ammo's thru the first initial rounds.

TIA

Thanks for the kind words.

Adams Arms is sort of a grab bag of reliability. The overall operation of them is generally fine, but you have secondary problems that arise. The Adams Arms system is basically a plug-n-play system, which is designed to work with any AR system. This level of easy integration makes the kits very simple to install, and relatively inexpensive. So much so that other companies like Huldra use AA kits for their own rifles. I would much rather recommend a fully-built upper than a kit conversion, as you will know that the system was installed absolutely correctly (or would be warrantied to be so). Then, you just have to deal with the ancillary problems that pop-up. The major issues are with carrier tilt and the related wear issues, return spring fatigue and gas regulation issues.
Piston guns in general are harder to diagnose when they have problems, but that's across the whole board.

LWRC is a great company and they have excellent products that a lot of big name people like Jeff Gonzalez promote. As long as you replace the piston return spring every 3000 rounds, it'll keep running strong.

The upper I have was is a complete fully built upper from factory from AA. I've seen those conversion GP kits too and was thinking of going that route but decided against it for that very reason you mentioned. I've read user's reviews regarding carrier tilt on the GP set up and was leary but than later found out that the issue was addressed with beefier BCG and the one piece design. I'm hoping that design was infact redesigned to fix the tilt issues.

Guess I'll find out sooner than later. I dont plan on using the AR on a monthly basis and it won't be in use as much as my pistols as the drive to the nearest range that allows rifle calibers is roughly 30-45mins away. The AR will mainly be a safe queen so to speak so I'm not too worried about the issues just yet. If the time comes I'll address them then.

Now regarding the piston spring, are those easily replaceable/removable? The AA set up I have the spring looks as if it doesnt come off, maybe i just overlooked it.

Return springs vary by manufacturer. Most should be user-serviceable. The problem with GP systems is that everything is proprietary, so there is no commonality in parts or construction. Many things are similar, but never the same between manufacturers. In order to get the replacement parts, you need to go back to the original manufacturer. In the case of the Adams, it looks like it's one whole $99 assembly for everything. If that is the case, it's likely a whole unit that would have to be replaced. I'm not seeing any specific spring on the website, but there are lots of companies where you have to call them directly to get the specific part you want.
Either way, if you plan on having the rifle for a while, I'd recommend picking up an extra set of replacement parts.

For what you are going to use your rifle for, you are fine with what you have. If you were going to be using your rifle for heavy service use, I'd say that you'd need a more purpose-built system like an HK, POF or LWRC, but where you're at, you're fine.

As for carrier-tilt, it will always be present in any piston-driven AR. Having a solid one-piece carrier/key assembly is important, but not a cure-all. As long as you have an op-rod pushing on the top of a bolt carrier, and the carrier is not operating on a track or rail system (like in a SCAR, ACR or AK), you will be susceptible to carrier tilt.
There are two ways to mitigate the issue in the long-run.

HeavyBuffers Anti-Tilt buffer:
http://www.heavybuffers.com/anticant.html

PWS Enhanced buffer tube:
http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/v...?idproduct=139

I get what your saying about proprietary parts. Since the gun is still new and still holds full manufacture warranty i'll put the replacement parts on hold till the warranty ends. No need to purchase something that is covered under warranty for now.

I was reading about carrier tilt and stump'd onto those heavy buffer Anti-Tilt which seem like a great upgrade.. but then thought to myself, how in the world would I seperate the upper receiver from the lower if it's got the extra step at the tip of the buffer? Would I have to remove the front pivot pin first then the rear take down pin and slide the upper forward to remove/seperate the two? And what if I just wanted to tilt the upper for a quick inspection, how would I go about tilting the upper without having the heavy buffer catching onto the bolt carrier?

For now, I want to upgrade my A4 stock and find a good range scope. Dont need the $200, $300 or $400 scopes for my useage. What scopes would you recommend for an average shooter who goes out maybe 3-4x's a year and puts maybe 500rds a year down range? Want something that would hold zero after the first couple shots and would be good up to 100-200 yards?? I would really like to stay in the $100 price range for a scope, but if I have to spend upwards of $200 I would too. I don't want to have to go through or experience your "buy once, cry once" terminology..

Originally Posted by slixx1320

Would I have to remove the front pivot pin first then the rear take down pin and slide the upper forward to remove/seperate the two? And what if I just wanted to tilt the upper for a quick inspection, how would I go about tilting the upper without having the heavy buffer catching onto the bolt carrier?

I've never laid hands on that setup, but my understanding is that you pop out both take-down pins and slide the upper forward while lifting up on the front of the upper. Not terribly difficult, but you do lose the ability to "shotgun" the weapon. Once you have it off, then you reattach the front of the upper and lower, and when you go to close it, you just stick your finger in there to push the buffer back and close. Or just put it back the same way you pulled it apart. Not really all that big of a deal, but obviously not as easy as popping the rear pin and pivoting the upper.

Originally Posted by slixx1320

For now, I want to upgrade my A4 stock and find a good range scope. Dont need the $200, $300 or $400 scopes for my useage. What scopes would you recommend for an average shooter who goes out maybe 3-4x's a year and puts maybe 500rds a year down range? Want something that would hold zero after the first couple shots and would be good up to 100-200 yards?? I would really like to stay in the $100 price range for a scope, but if I have to spend upwards of $200 I would too. I don't want to have to go through or experience your "buy once, cry once" terminology..

I would recommend the following scopes below. All are American companies with Japanese glass (which is good), except for Nikon, which is a Japanese company with their own glass. The only one I don't know about is the Bushnell, as their very bottom-end scopes use Chinese glass (which is bad). I believe the Trophy series is where they start to use Japanese glass, but you might want to call to be sure. I do NOT recommend anything with Chinese glass, but anything from the rest of the Pacific Rim is fine (Japan, Philippines, etc). All of these companies have lifetime warranties and are highly reputable. The Burris, Redfield and Nikon are the best bang for the buck. Nikon and Burris being tied for the best out of the three in terms of optical quality and durability. Redfield is owned by Leupold, and the Revenge series is the same exact scope as Leupold's Rifleman series, but for 25% less. Bushnell tends to be very good as well, but only once you get past a certain level of quality.



Bushnell Trophy XLT series

Weaver 40/44 Series $139 and up

Redfield Revenge series

Burris Fullfield II 3-9x40 $147.95

Nikon ProStaff 3-9x40 $169.95

There are other brands out there for less money, such as BSA, NCStar, Barska, Konus, etc. that are absolute shit. And that's me putting it nicely. Also terrible are the blister pack scopes that you buy for $49.99 at any sporting goods store, and this includes junk like Tasco and the low-end Bushnells. These low-end scopes will have poor tracking and inconsistent windage and elevation adjustment, will not hold zero well, and will be dark with very terrible optical quality. Poor light transmission, chromatic abberation, poor resolution, the whole gamut. If you stick with the scopes or series of scope I listed above, you'll get a good quality scope that is reliable and has a good warranty.

Thanks Reedo.... Appreciate the replies. I will def look into those model scopes you recommended. If I have an issues, I'll be sure to contact you with help if you don't mind??

Please do. Glad I could help.

I went with a Mueller 1-4x speed dot, its has very clear glass. I hope it shoots good groups, I only paid $150 for it....

^^ Where did you find one for that price? used? Which brand scope mount is that? If not, care to share/pm me the link where one could be had for that range?

I'm thinking of picking this one up along with the Burris PEPR QD mount.

http://swfa.com/Bushnell-3-9x40-Trop...pe-P45486.aspx