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Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning
Talk about driveline improvements, NA tuning and DME tuning your E46 BMW here. This includes diffs, intakes, exhausts, chips, software and OBD tuning.

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Old 02-22-2012, 01:48 PM   #21
jared_wiesner
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Rob, how do you propose I actuate the throttle during the dyno though? From what I understand, they can be damaged if the throttle plate is pushed against the motors commands. From looking at pictures, I don't see a mechanical way to move the throttle manually butterfly.
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Old 02-22-2012, 02:06 PM   #22
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This what I'm not clear on, I don't own a 99 328i. I thought this Bimmer has a throttle CABLE, as in no electronics. So thinking that it has manual operation, there would be no electrical hookup of any kind to the M54B30 (330) DBW TB. So going with this thinking, I wouldn't be concerned about operating the 330 DBW TB because nothing electrical would be attached. Thus it won't mind being manually opened & closed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Old 02-22-2012, 02:17 PM   #23
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Yes your right, mine is good old fashioned cable throttle. However with the 330 throttle body is where I run into issue, I'm still not getting how I'm going to physically open it myself. I'm not really all that concerned about hurting it anyway since if it gets used it has to be converted to mechanical anyhow.
I guess I could just take apart the electronic side an move the shaft with some vice grips? (there is not need for an air seal in there is there?) No incorporated ICV or something?
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Old 02-22-2012, 02:29 PM   #24
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OK, glad we have that solved.

Like I already stated, I'm currently holding a 330Ci/i TB in my hand. All you need to do is pop off the black plastic cover, you'll find that you can flawlessly open & close it by hand, it's perfectly spring loaded. I wouldn't alter its mechanism in any way, again DON'T TOUCH IT. All you're going to do is add something to it so your throttle cable can attach, make sure when it's at idle the TB is closed, & when your helper pushes down on the gas pedal the TB goes perfectly to full throttle (static test).


Good luck,
Rob
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Old 02-22-2012, 02:40 PM   #25
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Ok perfect, that should work. I hope I can sort out a way to hook up my TPS later.
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Old 02-22-2012, 03:13 PM   #26
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Oh jeez its not just a TPS mounted on the side. I had no clue but apparently my throttle body is motor controlled - cable driven. Meaning my throttle cable basically just tells the motor on my TB what to do to my throttle valve. I'll have to take them apart to verify first, but I have sneaking suspicion that there is no way I'm going to make the two designs work correctly together and keep the computer happy. Either way, I can dyno by hand controlling the 330 TB and see if there are gains to be had, if so, It'll likely be back to boring out my Throttle Body.
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Old 02-22-2012, 04:16 PM   #27
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The M52tu TB is an Electro-mechanical variety. I've been researching this as well. The best way to go about it is to have a custom TB made. You would keep the electronics and cable function, but add a the 3.0L bore and mounting points. Hoveringuy had one made to make use of the M20 cable function.

My question would be if it's possible to run a pre-2003 330 MAF on MS42 DME function.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:23 PM   #28
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I got a TB from a 323 laying around, part #13541433414. I'm never gonna do anything with it. You can have it if you want to try and scavenge the cable mechanism. just pay shipping.

I have a question for Rob43. could you tell me the measurements of the bolt holes from that 330 TB? I have a intake manifold that I told was for a 3.0 but the part number is no good. maybe a super ceded part#. just trying to make sure it a 3.0 manifold and i figured the easiest way it to make sure that a 3.0 TB would fit.
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:17 PM   #29
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.............I have a question for Rob43. could you tell me the measurements of the bolt holes from that 330 TB? I have a intake manifold that I told was for a 3.0 but the part number is no good. maybe a super ceded part#. just trying to make sure it a 3.0 manifold and i figured the easiest way it to make sure that a 3.0 TB would fit.

The short distance is 63.5mm

The longer distance is 74.9 mm

These are plus or minus about 0.5mm, measured using center of bolt hole to center of bolt hole.


Good luck.
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Nitrous is a little trickier than boost, but it's not the spray that kills motors, it's STUPIDITY!!
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:29 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Hornung418 View Post
The M52tu TB is an Electro-mechanical variety. I've been researching this as well. The best way to go about it is to have a custom TB made. You would keep the electronics and cable function, but add a the 3.0L bore and mounting points. Hoveringuy had one made to make use of the M20 cable function.

My question would be if it's possible to run a pre-2003 330 MAF on MS42 DME function.
Thanks for the input Hornung. Why not bore out our M52tu throttle bodies? I bet you could almost take enough material off to get to 70mm. At least 68-69.

I've been thinking about the MAF as well. Thing is, I'm fairly certain ours is 3 inches and therefore still larger than the 330 TB so not really a bottle neck.
Beyond that, the 330 MAF would be interesting to use if only to pair it with 330 injectors.

In any case, if erfont is kind enough to send his throttle body and I'm able to dyno with the 330 TB I've already bought, then at least we know whether this is worth pursuing or not.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:25 PM   #31
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I've been considering getting the 330 Maf and the appropriate hoses to make a custom TB, the difference is .6 inches between MAFs, so that would lead me to believe the TB difference is .6 inches.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:33 PM   #32
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:37 PM   #33
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thanks Rob. that was very helpful.

Let me know where to ship it Jared, and its yours
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:37 PM   #34
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I hope I'll be accepted here since I'm an e39 guy. I've been reading this forum for a while now since I'm in the process of a NA M54 engine build and I thought this thread would be a good place to jump in, since I have something to offer on this subject. Part of what I do for a living is port heads and build performance engines and I'm now quite familiar with the M54.

My recommendation is to not waste your time with this for the following reasons:
  • The 3.0L M54 TB is actually 68mm at the throttle plate with an area of 36.3cm^2.
  • The valve throat area of both inlet valves, minus valve stems area = 7.66cm^2.
  • Since a six cylinder 4 stoke engine has less than one cylinder involved in an intake stoke at any one given time, you can see that the TB is not a restriction here.
Most TB's are actually larger than they need to be from a restriction standpoint. Back in the days of carburetors air velocity needed to be maintained through the venturies for them to work properly, they needed to create a pressure drop in order to function. With fuel injection there is no need to maintain a minimum velocity (except with regard to throttle response) , so they are usually more than large enough to not create a restriction.

To get a visual perspective, here is a picture of 2 M54 intake valves sitting inside a 3.0L M54 TB.
Click image for larger version

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Here a couple of pics of the custom manually actuated TB I made since my M54 is replacing a non-tu version of the M52. I made this to 68mm even though the heads will be ported, with larger valves and performance cams.
Click image for larger version

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Click image for larger version

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ID:	438550

I have a complete engine build thread running on the e39 forum with all the details about the head work, customs pistons, etc. Let me know if you are interested in a parallel thread on this forum.
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:17 AM   #35
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Welcome to E46Fanatics.


Please post up a link, we'd like to take a look.


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SUMMIT POINT WV 1:24:229 S.C.C.A.
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"Chance Favors The Prepared Mind"

Need Help With Your Nitrous Ambitions ?.....PM ME
Quote:
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Nitrous is a little trickier than boost, but it's not the spray that kills motors, it's STUPIDITY!!
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:34 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by MotorMan View Post
I hope I'll be accepted here since I'm an e39 guy. I've been reading this forum for a while now since I'm in the process of a NA M54 engine build and I thought this thread would be a good place to jump in, since I have something to offer on this subject. Part of what I do for a living is port heads and build performance engines and I'm now quite familiar with the M54.

My recommendation is to not waste your time with this for the following reasons:
  • The 3.0L M54 TB is actually 68mm at the throttle plate with an area of 36.3cm^2.
  • The valve throat area of both inlet valves, minus valve stems area = 7.66cm^2.
  • Since a six cylinder 4 stoke engine has less than one cylinder involved in an intake stoke at any one given time, you can see that the TB is not a restriction here.
Most TB's are actually larger than they need to be from a restriction standpoint. Back in the days of carburetors air velocity needed to be maintained through the venturies for them to work properly, they needed to create a pressure drop in order to function. With fuel injection there is no need to maintain a minimum velocity (except with regard to throttle response) , so they are usually more than large enough to not create a restriction.

To get a visual perspective, here is a picture of 2 M54 intake valves sitting inside a 3.0L M54 TB.
Attachment 438546

Here a couple of pics of the custom manually actuated TB I made since my M54 is replacing a non-tu version of the M52. I made this to 68mm even though the heads will be ported, with larger valves and performance cams.
Attachment 438548
Attachment 438550

I have a complete engine build thread running on the e39 forum with all the details about the head work, customs pistons, etc. Let me know if you are interested in a parallel thread on this forum.
I just don't think I follow that logic. The valves are the last link in the chain as a bottle neck for the air going into 1 cylinder. Air requirements of an engine go up with a clear relationship to RPM. This means that almost all the air drawn by all the cylinders at 6000 RPM is being asked to go through the throttle body. If what your saying is true, there would be no power to gain from removing any restriction throughout the intake tract because at any point there is plenty of volume to satisfy the opening made by a pair of valves. Heck the opening a pair of valves makes is not even close to the size of the valves heads. The air has to rush past their stems, (tiny openings in comparison). The calculator is used is very good and I think its fair to say that 69-70mm is the optimal opening for a 328 at 6000 rpm.

Just to draw on what I've seen personally. While I realize that carbs are somwhat different as they create the air/fuel mixture as well as provide an air inlet into the engine...
On the old Buick engines, they require a bigger carb then the exact same size Chev, Olds, Pontiac, Ford, or Dodge. This is due to the design of the heads and the timing of the engine as well as the bore/stroke dimensions. While a big chev often needs no more than a 650-800cfm carb. The Buicks needed 750cfm minimum to run and 800-950cfm was optimal. I used to get ridiculed by chevy guys all the time for running such a big carb on my car. Little did they know that I had run a 750cfm and it was not enough. The design of that engine just loves more air.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:07 AM   #37
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http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1721685

This thread has actual dynos of larger throttle bodies on an e36 328. All the important bits that dictate airflow are identical, so it stands to reason that the principles that showed gains here will show gains on the m52tu as well.

E36 throttle body is 63.8mm. So actually a tad larger then ours.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:22 PM   #38
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Quote:
E36 throttle body is 63.8mm. So actually a tad larger then ours.
What size is the M52-tu TB? My 2.8L M52 TB was 65MM.

I actually mis-spoke in my previous post. Since there are 3 intake strokes per revolution, and an intake stoke lasts for 90 degrees, than there are 1.5 cylinders drawing air at any one time. Before calling me out on actual valve timing being greater than 90 degrees, I'm referring to peak flow which occurs over less than 90 degrees of an intake cycle. The TB does not see a flow volume greater the combined volume of air flowing past 1.5 sets of intake valves.

Quote:
Heck the opening a pair of valves makes is not even close to the size of the valves heads. The air has to rush past their stems, (tiny openings in comparison
My point exactly. That's why when you port a head 90% of all flow gains are achieved thru modifying the area just before and thru the valve throat area.

Quote:
This thread has actual dynos of larger throttle bodies on an e36 328. All the important bits that dictate airflow are identical, so it stands to reason that the principles that showed gains here will show gains on the m52tu as well.
If you look at the dyno plot referred to here, you will see gains across the entire rpm range. If the gains in this comparison were due to a TB restriction, than the swap would only show gains in the upper rpm range.

Just a little insight on dyno data: The only way to definitively quantify a gain or loss is to perform A-B-A testing. Run the test before the modifications and repeat until the plots stabilize and yield consistent plots (at least 3 identical consecutive runs). Make the modifications and repeat the prior procedure. Switch back to the non-modified state and verify that you can repeat the original "A" test data. Since that is not an affordable option for most people, and since most "before and after" plots on performed on different days, you can discount almost all dyno comparisons that you see showing gains or losses in the <10hp range as anecdotal.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here. I just trying to same you some time and money.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:58 PM   #39
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Thats fair, and I'm not trying to be argumentative either. I just am still not following your logic. I do also appreciate your efforts to save me money though, as that is a commodity I have in short supply lately.

I just don't think I can agree that the throttle body only sees the airflow past 1.5 sets of valves (or in other words 3 valves ).

As you say, gains with a TB should be better as RPM increases. This dictates a higher airflow requirement as RPMs increase which means it has to be demanding more air than 3 strokes which is all it would ask to pass through during one revolution. The fact that dinan and vac sell throttle bodies and specific tunes for throttle bodies tells me that they can make power. Both are very reputable companies. Also, like I was saying, given the tiny holes actually opened by the valves, if that was all the air truly needed you'd see
tiny little throttle bodies on cars. Like 10mm throttle bodies. If what your saying is true, how is it that in sancioned motorsports they use throttle restrictor plates to handicap cars? Often times only closing millimeters of airflow to keep things fair?

In terms of the dyno plot, I only really see the main gains from 5k to redline, which fits into a proper airflow model.

My throttle body is 63mm. The same size as a 323's

Edit:

This article, which is also quoted in the link I posted before, shows careful testing methodology. It was also done by an independant magazine and not the company selling the product.
http://www.eurotuner.com/techarticle...g/viewall.htmlhttp://www.eurotuner.com/techarticle...g/viewall.html
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:39 PM   #40
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Wow...great info! Welcome to e46Fanatics!
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