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Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning

Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning
Talk about driveline improvements, NA tuning and DME tuning your E46 BMW here. This includes diffs, intakes, exhausts, chips, software and OBD tuning.

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Old 02-23-2012, 07:50 PM   #41
MotorMan
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God I hate it when I have to correct myself twice for a single post. I guess that's what happens when I type faster than I think. In your heads please change all the 90 degree references in my previous post to 180 degrees. I'm not sure what orifice I pulled the 90 degrees out of but it was a stupid slip for someone who degrees cams and builds motors on a regular basis.

Quote:
My throttle body is 63mm. The same size as a 323's
If that's the case I can concede that, if you have other air flow enhancing mod to your 2.8L, such as headers, cams, porting, etc, that jumping from 63 to 68mm could make a minor difference.

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I just am still not following your logic. I just don't think I can agree that the throttle body only sees the airflow past 1.5 sets of valves.
Look at this way, it doesn't matter what rpm you're at, each cylinder is doing something different. Example: Lets freeze the engine in time and say that #1 cyl is at 90deg, 1/2 way thru its intake stroke and is pulling peak air flow for that cyl (peak would actually be delayed due to inertia and the elasticity of air). That means cyl #2 is 2/3 thru its compression stroke and drawing no air flow from the manifold, cyl #3 is 1/3 thru it's exhaust stroke and drawing no air flow from the manifold, cyl #4 is 1/3 thru it's compression stroke and drawing no air flow from the manifold, cyl #5 is 2/3 thru its exhaust stroke and drawing no air flow from the manifold, and cyl #6 is 1/2 way thru it's power stroke and drawing no air flow from the manifold. No matter where in the cycle you freeze and evaluate air flow, you will never have anything other than just 1 cyl near peak inlet flow and 5 at zero, or 2 cyl's at 50% or less air flow and 4 at zero. There is no other way for air to flow thru the engine.

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Also, like I was saying, given the tiny holes actually opened by the valves, if that was all the air truly needed you'd see
tiny little throttle bodies on cars. Like 10mm throttle bodies.
That's not true. What you have in the motor is 2 approx 28mm size holes (valve throats) at the valve opening and they are the major restriction. So the minimum equivalent area would be a 40mm TB and I never said that a TB with the same area as peak inlet valve area wouldn't be an additional restriction.

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In terms of the dyno plot, I only really see the main gains from 5k to redline, which fits into a proper airflow model.
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If you look at the torque curve it show an almost constant increase across the entire rpm range. (except for the minor undulations of both plots). Since hp is torque x rpm, the hp graph shows an almost constant % increase across the entire rpm range. This looks like either intentional or accidental application of correction factors. Nothing I know of except for frictional losses or to some extent ign timing will affect the entire rpm range equally; definitely not a larger TB.

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If what your saying is true, how is it that in sanctioned motorsports they use throttle restrictor plates to handicap cars?
Usually you are talking about heavily modified motors with bigger than stock valves, radical cams, high rpm tuned headers and often, larger than stock displacement. Also restrictor plates are usually intentionally in the form of a square edged orifice. A square edged orifice has very poor flow characteristics for any given orifice area.

Again, don't let me discourage you from trying this, I have been wrong before. Like I wrote earlier, a 63mm TB could be a very minor restriction. If you test this, please do me a favor and don't post a dyno graph with just 2 runs, where one graph has an undulation or two that bumps up above the other and call it a proof of gains. If you can work it out with the operator, try to get at least 2 before runs that perfectly overlay on each other, and 2 after runs that do the same.

BTW- If everyone listened to the skeptics like me, half the stuff we now enjoy in life never would have been invented.

Good Luck!
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:03 PM   #42
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Thank you for your detailed response, you addressed my criticisms very succinctly. I was a long day at work and I'm currently enjoying some liquid relaxation so forgive me if this post is not quite to the point.

I'm almost convinced by your knowledge but I still don't quite see why it is that for example on the other side, exhaust, you still need to upsize the pipe after the manifold/headers. If all that had to be dealt with was a single cylinders flow at one time and every other cylinder flowed in order after the first, then what would the point be of less restrictive exhausts.

I think that in terms of individual throttle body cars like the m3, what your saying makes sense. But when individual pulses of air are not timed to flow perfectly in order through the air delivery device... much larger amounts of air are required to keep up with the combined demands of multiple cylinders drawing on an air reservoir at high rpm.

Either way, it sounds like your much more experienced than I am in this field and I'm in too far to back out now. If there's a way for me to make the 330 TB work for a dyno, we will soon find out what there is to be found. I will try and perform 3 pulls before and 3 pulls after.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:50 PM   #43
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Wow this thread is taking off! I'm very impressed with you two guys.

I keep PMing guys that have 330 TBs for sale, and for some reason they've already sold them One guy wanted 40 bucks for his...

But I hope we can make this work. And end up with a Frankenstein "M53" if you will.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:08 PM   #44
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I don't know the answer, anyone else ?
Does anyone need to wiring schematic for the 330 TB? I can get you the pin numbers for the 0-5v TPS sensor but you would have to scab them into your harness to do a dyno run.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:18 PM   #45
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Does anyone need to wiring schematic for the 330 TB? I can get you the pin numbers for the 0-5v TPS sensor but you would have to scab them into your harness to do a dyno run.
Yes please! that will solve the last issue i've been concerned about.

Hornung, I'm glad your finding the thread useful, there's only a handful of us around who have done this manifold swap so far. I wish I could have picked up a 330 TB for 40 bucks. I got it at a fair price but it was north of 100 shipped.
I just hope I can make this work without cannibalizing it and if it doesn't give me power, just re-sell it.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:03 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by jared_wiesner View Post
Yes please! that will solve the last issue i've been concerned about.

I just hope I can make this work without cannibalizing it and if it doesn't give me power, just re-sell it.

The plastic black cover on my spare 330 TB broke/cracked on several tabs. My thoughts are to take a heat gun or hairdryer to it, this way you'll get the cover off in one piece.

Good luck.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:48 PM   #47
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Jeez! Its weird how multiple people get ideas for the same thing at the same time...

I'm trying to do the same thing for the same reasons as you jared_wiesner, but with a different approach.

I'm working on a stand-alone microcontroller to make the M54 throttle body work with the M52TU engine. The idea is to utilize existing BMW parts and have a signal interface so that the car doesn't know that anything has been modified. I'm planning on using the stock BMW drive-by-wire e-gas pedal to provide an input signal to the microcontroller. The microcontroller will then aggregate the input signal and output the necessary voltage to articulate the throttle body.

The design, coding, redundancy, and overall functionality is considerably more complex than I'm making it out to be, I'm just sharing a brief summary of my progress to weigh in.

I'm still waiting on some parts to come in to start testing but it looks as though it will be very do-able.

I wanted to make one point in defense of this project:

MotorMan sounds extremely well read and knowledgable on this subject. I've been looking for data, like the stuff he's accumulated with his project, for a long time. I also agree with him on all of the points he's making and his conclusions. However, the main function of upgrading to a larger throttle body is not for a net power or torque gain, its to facilitate faster acceleration.

Fun fact: Enlarged throttle bodies are a bit of a secret weapon in formula 1 racing. Since the teams are artificially limited to a certain power output from their engines, they have to focus on gaining performance in other ways. Enlarged throttle bodies are purposely utilized to provide low HP and torque gains but yield quicker acceleration -especially at WOT. Its true that a larger throttle body will add little power -especially for the money- but thats the point.

For the record, I doubt the improved acceleration will be significant, but its certainly worth a shot. Besides, if we can retrofit a larger throttle body to the M52TU, that opens up avenues for other mods like retrofitting the larger 3.5" MAF sensor off the M54B30 as well as M54B30 intake kits! It all adds up!

Pitch me your thoughts, I'd love opinions on anything I've just said.
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Old 03-15-2012, 07:35 PM   #48
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One more thing for jared_wiesner...

Doing a dyno pull will REQUIRE that the car get throttle position input from the throttle body. If the DME doesn't receive the four throttle position signals (yes, four signals!), it will likely illuminate a CEL and put the car into limp mode or open-loop, thus reducing power and ruining the dyno results.

You might be able to bolt up the M54 throttle body but leave the M52TU throttle body plugged in sitting somewhere in the engine bay off to the side. Then you could articulate both of them both by hand at roughly the same angle at the same time. Its crude but probably no more crude than bolting them up and reaching in there by hand to articulate the M54 throttle body. I just doubt you'll get any plausible or consistent data if you're moving them both by hand.

If you wanted to get more consistent data, perhaps you can figure out a way hap-hazardly assemble a dual throttle linkage system. You could try using something from Jegs or Summit and just articulate the throttle by hand if you wanted. The M52TU throttle body already has a bracket to hold the throttle sleeve in place so you dont need to bolt down the M52TU throttle body to anything for throttle blade to be actuated. If you can piece something like that together for the M54 you can run two separate cables to the cabin. Then you can tie the two separate cables together at the cabin end so that they move in synchronous. The contraption would be super wacky and strictly for testing purposes. It would also likely destroy the M54 throttle body you're using, but it might work

Also, I have the pin assignments you're looking for from both the M52TU and the M54 throttle body as well as the signal that the DME will be looking for. PM me and I'd be more than happy to share them with you.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:36 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexxander.foster View Post
One more thing for jared_wiesner...

Doing a dyno pull will REQUIRE that the car get throttle position input from the throttle body. If the DME doesn't receive the four throttle position signals (yes, four signals!), it will likely illuminate a CEL and put the car into limp mode or open-loop, thus reducing power and ruining the dyno results.

You might be able to bolt up the M54 throttle body but leave the M52TU throttle body plugged in sitting somewhere in the engine bay off to the side. Then you could articulate both of them both by hand at roughly the same angle at the same time. Its crude but probably no more crude than bolting them up and reaching in there by hand to articulate the M54 throttle body. I just doubt you'll get any plausible or consistent data if you're moving them both by hand.

If you wanted to get more consistent data, perhaps you can figure out a way hap-hazardly assemble a dual throttle linkage system. You could try using something from Jegs or Summit and just articulate the throttle by hand if you wanted. The M52TU throttle body already has a bracket to hold the throttle sleeve in place so you dont need to bolt down the M52TU throttle body to anything for throttle blade to be actuated. If you can piece something like that together for the M54 you can run two separate cables to the cabin. Then you can tie the two separate cables together at the cabin end so that they move in synchronous. The contraption would be super wacky and strictly for testing purposes. It would also likely destroy the M54 throttle body you're using, but it might work

Also, I have the pin assignments you're looking for from both the M52TU and the M54 throttle body as well as the signal that the DME will be looking for. PM me and I'd be more than happy to share them with you.
Ya thats kinda what I feared. I was originally toying with the idea of actuating the one by hand and trying to approximate the throttle flap position on the dyno. But like you said, unless the computer has very wide margins that it operates under for throttle position, (and i doubt it does), the odds of this working in any kind of scientifcally useful way are slim to none.
I'm now wondering if I can integrate the motor and all peripherals of the m52tu throttle body in place of those on the m54 throttle body and only keep the casting, shaft and flap from the m54. Either way, this is starting to look more and more grim.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:34 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by jared_wiesner View Post
I'm now wondering if I can integrate the motor and all peripherals of the m52tu throttle body in place of those on the m54 throttle body and only keep the casting, shaft and flap from the m54. Either way, this is starting to look more and more grim.
This is possible but it can't be done easily. the M52TU uses two sets of sensors:

Set 1 = Throttle Position Sensor
- 0v to 5v primary sensor
- 5v to 0v redundant sensor
Set 2 = Pedal Position Sensor
- 0v to 5v primary sensor
- 5v to 0v redundant sensor

each of those sensors has its own 5v supply, ground for a total of eight leads just for the sensors. The redundant sensor is used so the DME can qucikly add the two values together to verify component failure, since the total of the two signal voltages is always 5v.

Now the M54 has two of these sensor sets as well, but since its drive by wire, the Pedal Position Sensor IS the pedal. So the only sensors at the throttle body are the TPS sensor. There are still two that measure 0v to 5v and 5v to 0v but this time they share a 5v supply and ground.

... Now that I'm talking it out, I have an idea:

the DME for the M52TU looks for signals from all of those sensors but it only utilizes one of them in engine management: the 0v to 5v signal at the throttle body. The second signal is mainly for the DSC/ASC and the cruise control systems. I can guarantee it will trigger a CEL if the Pedal Position Sensor set is not giving a signal but it MIGHT not trigger a limp mode or open loop... now that's worth a shot!
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:23 AM   #51
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Bump. I think I'm right in guessing that MotorMan is Gary from German Auto Solutions. I'm trying to build some interest for the development of an cable driven TB with B30 bore but retains the electronics necessary for Cruise Control and DSC in MS42 controlled cars. Gary is willing to do a one-off 1) if the process is possible and 2) enough people with the swap are interested. The MS43 MAF will work with the MS42 DME according to my Dealer, so that will not be an issue! Let's see if we can get this process moving!
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Old 05-26-2012, 04:02 AM   #52
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Hello Hornung418! I trust this is along the same lines:

I'm close to finishing R&D of an electronic interface to use the M54 throttle body in the M52TU. It will be a self contained kit that reads and converts signals to drive by wire, will support all normal functions of the DME, no CELs, and use factory parts. It will also be a plug and play kit.

I should have the prototype functional within the next few weeks. After that I'll be reaching out to the forum for help with beta testing.

I've been looking at adaping this throttle body option for a few years now. My biggest hurtle has been finding a solution that people can replicate. As far as I can tell, an electronic adapter will be the easiest and most painless way to utilize the M54 throttle body in our engines after completing the M54 intake swap.

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Originally Posted by Hornung418 View Post
Bump. I think I'm right in guessing that MotorMan is Gary from German Auto Solutions. I'm trying to build some interest for the development of an cable driven TB with B30 bore but retains the electronics necessary for Cruise Control and DSC in MS42 controlled cars. Gary is willing to do a one-off 1) if the process is possible and 2) enough people with the swap are interested. The MS43 MAF will work with the MS42 DME according to my Dealer, so that will not be an issue! Let's see if we can get this process moving!
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Old 05-26-2012, 02:45 PM   #53
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Will it still be cable driven? That's my concern. I drove a ZHP last weekend and the throttle response was horrible! I'm interested in your idea if it can retain it's throttle cable.
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:18 PM   #54
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The electronic throttle system isn't the problem, its the software. BMW threw in some extra software to aggregate and average the throttle response. They wanted to smooth out the car to appease the majority of BMW owners. If you remove the software it will respond exactly the same as a cable actuated throttle body. That's what the sprint booster deals with.

Side bar, these DBW throttle systems are pretty common in the sponsored racing world. With software, the race engineer can adjust the car to respond better to a driver's style or to better meet the engine's needs. They're even cheaper to manufacture now than a mechanical system -which is why they're so common now. There just isn't an advantage anymore to using a mechanical system over electronic.

But of course, its up to you. Somebody on the forum has modified an M54 throttle body for mechanical actuation but it was meant for a motor swap. Just be prepared for both electrical and mechanical work.


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Will it still be cable driven? That's my concern. I drove a ZHP last weekend and the throttle response was horrible! I'm interested in your idea if it can retain it's throttle cable.
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Old 05-26-2012, 05:18 PM   #55
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So the TB you're working on will need to implement a DBW throttle? I'm all for keeping it simple. If this wasn't my DD I wouldn't have an issue with using Gary's 3.5 inch TB. I'm having trouble understanding how you will convert this. Send me a PM. I'm confused as hell. LOL
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Old 05-26-2012, 05:46 PM   #56
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Haha, no worries. I'm with some friends today so ill PM you either tonight or tomorrow and spell out the details. Talk to you then.

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So the TB you're working on will need to implement a DBW throttle? I'm all for keeping it simple. If this wasn't my DD I wouldn't have an issue with using Gary's 3.5 inch TB. I'm having trouble understanding how you will convert this. Send me a PM. I'm confused as hell. LOL
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Old 05-26-2012, 11:32 PM   #57
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I'm definitely interested in both of your proposals. I haven't had the chance to take my throttle body endeavors further right now as its time attack season and I can't risk the car being out of action or slowed down in any way right now.

Both of you keep us posted on your progress.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:35 PM   #58
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I've got something you guys might like...

I've finished a major chunk of R&D for a prototype M54B30 throttle body controller. I've been working on this thing off and on for about 6 months now and I'm pretty close to testing it in my e46.

Here is a youtube video showing the throttle body in action:



Sorry about all of the shaking and poor video quality, I did this with my phone one handed.

The operation of the throttle body is extremely smooth but still very very responsive and precise. The throttle plate is accurate within +/- approx. 1% of the pedal's location. The controller software is progressive; i.e., it becomes progressively smoother with small movements (less than 2%) but quickly shifts to full speed for rapid changes in position resulting in near instantaneous throttle response. Its also has a calibration function to compensate for e-gas pedals and throttle bodies that are past their prime -which reduces the cost for other parts.

I'm designing it to be a complete replacement for the M52TU's throttle body. As of now its programmed to work with a BMW e-gas pedal from an e46 as well as an M54B30 electronic throttle body -which means all of the parts will be a direct bolt on. It will deal with the multiple POT signals, cruise control, traction control, throttle body manipulation, and several safety redundancies to protect the driver.

When I'm done I plan on offering complete kits with all the harnesses, wiring, and tools necessary for installation. I'm not completely certain on the price of these modules since PCB's are expensive to order in small quantities, but my goal is around $150 for a plug-n-play kit. If I can sell them for less I will.

Tell me what you guys think!!!
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Old 06-06-2012, 05:53 AM   #59
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Err Mah Gerd!! Dude that is everything I've been hoping it would be! Add me to the list! Don't even care about the price.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:13 AM   #60
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Edit: N/m - I don't know how I missed that video above. I could've sworn it wasn't there before I hit post ><
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