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Old 03-14-2012, 10:32 PM   #41
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Does anybody know whether this is tig or mig welded? The sheet metal on these cars is rather thin. I'm thinking of doing some custom fab work myself on my ///M.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:52 PM   #42
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Few more launches and the car would have ripped in half. That's horrible.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:56 PM   #43
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Marcus,

Here is a link to the TMS reinforcement kit. On this page look at the PDF for installation of the kit which shows the top (inside the trunk) work that is needed. I didn't do this. I talked to TC at TC design and he said that if you have very minor cracking, you might not need to do this. But that is on my car that will never see more than 528 HP and no hard launches, since it is for the road track and not the drag strip.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/BMW-...ment-kits.aspx

I hope that all works out to your satisfaction concerning the other issue. And I hope to see you at MFest with a car that will finally last.

Take care,
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:00 PM   #44
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Marcus,

Here is a link to the TMS reinforcement kit. On this page look at the PDF for installation of the kit which shows the top (inside the trunk) work that is needed. I didn't do this. I talked to TC at TC design and he said that if you have very minor cracking, you might not need to do this. But that is on my car that will never see more than 528 HP and no hard launches, since it is for the road track and not the drag strip.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/BMW-...ment-kits.aspx

I hope that all works out to your satisfaction concerning the other issue. And I hope to see you at MFest with a car that will finally last.

Take care,
Terry

Thanks Terry!

I'm looking at the Mason Engineering bar as well.. I"m thinking I might need to get pretty serious about reinforcements if I want to keep everything in one piece back there!
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Old 03-15-2012, 02:05 AM   #45
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I dont think subframe should be reinforced with rear struts they are not that strong.

When we welded the rear strut i saw that it is very very thin, it almost cuts the rear strut while welding.

This gets its subframe reinforcement from the stronger part of the car

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Old 03-15-2012, 06:07 AM   #46
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This is what I'm getting. Just got word it will arrive early next week. I'll be installing it with my new clutch and M3 rear end swap during the first week of April. Anyone in the Hampton Roads area of VA is welcome to check it out once complete.

I had the designer of this remove the "X" brace in the center, but the design is otherwise unchanged. It's made by a small company out of Cali called Mason Engineering.
id love to see how it works out. and if it would be possible with my trunk setup.
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:50 PM   #47
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This is what I'm getting. Just got word it will arrive early next week. I'll be installing it with my new clutch and M3 rear end swap during the first week of April. Anyone in the Hampton Roads area of VA is welcome to check it out once complete.

I had the designer of this remove the "X" brace in the center, but the design is otherwise unchanged. It's made by a small company out of Cali called Mason Engineering.

As impressive as this brace looks, it only uses the shock towers as a mounting point. More load distribution would be a lot better.
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id love to see how it works out. and if it would be possible with my trunk setup. For the money that the Mason Engineering piece costs & the fact that it needs more load distribution, the custom fabricated piece below would be a much better option.
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I dont think subframe should be reinforced with rear struts they are not that strong. (Mason Engineering piece)

When we welded the rear strut i saw that it is very very thin, it almost cuts the rear strut while welding.
Agreed.


This gets its subframe reinforcement from the stronger part of the car.
I believe that using a long bolt through design that ties into a welded in "Boxed" design like what has been shown is a winner. This is a simple & straight forward approach, any fabrication or welding shop should easily be able to do this. Probably for the same or even cheaper cost of the Mason piece itself.

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Old 03-15-2012, 08:55 PM   #48
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I agree, I wouldn't trust the Mason Engineering bar just because I'm skeptic of it. There's a strong possibility that some of these failures that have the TMS or HPF kit installed were due to bad welds upon installation.

Never the less it is shocking to see how violently it rips and lol at the people who epoxy in their reinforcement kits
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:18 PM   #49
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No one does Rosette welds? I did about 20 in all when putting on my TMS kit
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:18 PM   #50
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wow... hope i dont have this problem later on.
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:02 AM   #51
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I believe that using a long bolt through design that ties into a welded in "Boxed" design like what has been shown is a winner. This is a simple & straight forward approach, any fabrication or welding shop should easily be able to do this. Probably for the same or even cheaper cost of the Mason piece itself.

Rob
I totally agree. The solution applied above succeeds by turning to the much sturdier framerail, instead of the strut tower alone. The framerail si tremendously accessible, found only a few inches away from each subframe mount-point.
Another place that could benefit from reinforcement is the framerail under the trunk floor, about 1.5-2" beneath the horizontal bar in the above australian reinforcement.
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:24 AM   #52
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with that black brace, would you need a strut bar anymore?

if you put a brace like that would you need the tms reinforcement kit anymore?

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Old 03-16-2012, 02:31 AM   #53
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with that black brace, would you need a strut bar anymore?

if you put a brace like that would you need the tms reinforcement kit anymore?

1) Strut bar- No, the "Boxed" design as pictured would totally eliminate the need for any type of strut bar.

2) TMS reinforcements- Only if you had preexisting rips/tears & you were attempting to patch them using that kit. If you had no rips/tears, the TMS kit would not be needed.


Good luck,
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:50 AM   #54
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I agree, I wouldn't trust the Mason Engineering bar just because I'm skeptic of it. There's a strong possibility that some of these failures that have the TMS or HPF kit installed were due to bad welds upon installation.

Never the less it is shocking to see how violently it rips and lol at the people who epoxy in their reinforcement kits
My kit is welded in, but why "lol at the people who epoxy in their reinforcement kits"?

Benefits to epoxy, that I see:
1) Due to there being more area covered, it's a stronger bond than welding just around the outside of the plate.
2) weather sealed by the epoxy on the inside, so no chance of rusting from the inside out.
3) no chance of weakening the floor by bad welds during install
4) The load of the subframe is spread out over the entire area of the plate instead of just the edges... which should make it less stressful on everything.

The epoxy solution didn't exist when I did my subframe plates, which is why I didn't do it... but it does seem like a better solution to me. What do you see as the downside?
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Old 03-17-2012, 07:14 AM   #55
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My kit is welded in, but why "lol at the people who epoxy in their reinforcement kits"?

Benefits to epoxy, that I see:
1) Due to there being more area covered, it's a stronger bond than welding just around the outside of the plate.
2) weather sealed by the epoxy on the inside, so no chance of rusting from the inside out.
3) no chance of weakening the floor by bad welds during install
4) The load of the subframe is spread out over the entire area of the plate instead of just the edges... which should make it less stressful on everything.

The epoxy solution didn't exist when I did my subframe plates, which is why I didn't do it... but it does seem like a better solution to me. What do you see as the downside?
epoxy pulls aparts and doesnt have the same level of cohesion to the metal as a weld. Ganted' you're right, it can somewhat make up for that with surface area. However, there are a number of panels BMW put together on our cars with epoxy alone, like the upper spring plate. Has no welds to the body. Mine pretty much fell, it move .7" down. It had to be put back into place and seam welded. If epoxy had been used as the original reinforcements I tore out, I'm pretty sure it would have been catastrophic given that the factory parts that are held in with epoxy couldnt hold together.
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Old 03-17-2012, 07:57 AM   #56
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My kit is welded in, but why "lol at the people who epoxy in their reinforcement kits"?

Benefits to epoxy, that I see:
1) Due to there being more area covered, it's a stronger bond than welding just around the outside of the plate. I don't buy into this, properly welded fuses the metal together the epoxy solution just has a layer of epoxy between those layers
2) weather sealed by the epoxy on the inside, so no chance of rusting from the inside out. One would still need to sand down to bare metal so rust could still happen, but same goes for welding
3) no chance of weakening the floor by bad welds during install I agree with this,[B[/B]
4) The load of the subframe is spread out over the entire area of the plate instead of just the edges... which should make it less stressful on everything. not necessarily

The epoxy solution didn't exist when I did my subframe plates, which is why I didn't do it... but it does seem like a better solution to me. What do you see as the downside?
last I checked the installation instructions do not have epoxy listed as recommended path
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:47 AM   #57
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epoxy pulls aparts and doesnt have the same level of cohesion to the metal as a weld. Ganted' you're right, it can somewhat make up for that with surface area. However, there are a number of panels BMW put together on our cars with epoxy alone, like the upper spring plate. Has no welds to the body. Mine pretty much fell, it move .7" down. It had to be put back into place and seam welded. If epoxy had been used as the original reinforcements I tore out, I'm pretty sure it would have been catastrophic given that the factory parts that are held in with epoxy couldnt hold together.
I kind of feel like you're letting a single personal experience define an entire category. It's not like the spring perches dropping off is a common issue-- it's actually pretty much unheard of. Structural epoxy is very strong and actually pretty commonly used in super cars (to bold aluminum chassis pieces to carbon fiber chassis pieces) is high stress areas. For a given area, a weld is stronger, but when you have a plate like this... the epoxy should be the stronger bond (properly installed (properly installed also applies to welding, probably more so!)).

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban
My kit is welded in, but why "lol at the people who epoxy in their reinforcement kits"?

Benefits to epoxy, that I see:
1) Due to there being more area covered, it's a stronger bond than welding just around the outside of the plate. I don't buy into this, properly welded fuses the metal together the epoxy solution just has a layer of epoxy between those layers
2) weather sealed by the epoxy on the inside, so no chance of rusting from the inside out. One would still need to sand down to bare metal so rust could still happen, but same goes for welding
3) no chance of weakening the floor by bad welds during install I agree with this,[B[/b]
4) The load of the subframe is spread out over the entire area of the plate instead of just the edges... which should make it less stressful on everything. not necessarily

The epoxy solution didn't exist when I did my subframe plates, which is why I didn't do it... but it does seem like a better solution to me. What do you see as the downside?
last I checked the installation instructions do not have epoxy listed as recommended path
1) bond strength data disagrees with you
2) Yes, you still need to sand it down, but the epoxy itself seals the plate. With welding, you end up with exposed metal on the other (unseen) side of the weld
4) It's the same load spread out over a larger area. Seems less stressful to me!


Again, I'm not set on epoxy per se. Just the comments in this thread such as "bet all those people that epoxied their plates in are regretting it now" struck me as odd. Especially as all the reinforcement kits that have failed in this thread were welded in, not epoxied. I don't think this thread would have me regretting that decision, had I made it!
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Old 03-17-2012, 10:37 AM   #58
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yeah, I see what you're saying and you're probably right. I was just hating for no reason I guess, my bad!

Anyways, here's a question for you. The HPF kit is a bit thicker than the TMS right, do you think it's harder to get good fusion to the thin chassis metal this welds up to because of that additional thickness?

Also with those bars welded across from the frame rails, how about doing the same to the front subframe mount points so all four points are as robust as possible.
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:13 PM   #59
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I kind of feel like you're letting a single personal experience define an entire category. It's not like the spring perches dropping off is a common issue-- it's actually pretty much unheard of. Structural epoxy is very strong and actually pretty commonly used in super cars (to bold aluminum chassis pieces to carbon fiber chassis pieces) is high stress areas. For a given area, a weld is stronger, but when you have a plate like this... the epoxy should be the stronger bond (properly installed (properly installed also applies to welding, probably more so!)).
Regarding my bias, you're correct, most people wont put their chassis through what mine has seen. But it's no isolated incident. Look at the trunk images above. The primary means of attaching the trunk floor to the frame rail is epoxy, it failed. Granted, it's a poor design, and it's not like more bond strength would fix it as even the steel tears, but despite the steel tearing here and there, it seems like just about everything that was epoxy'd together has failed in the trunk. A weld reinforces the joint point, not to mention molecular continuity.

Also, what I experienced can be found on just about every chassis that runs a rigid lower spring mount and a linear spring long term. Linear springs can be used, but extended exposure to linear springs with a lower spring perch that jacks the spring into the body at an angle will induce some movement of the upper spring pad in the chassis. This can be corrected by running a beehive style spring or a spherical spring mount. I should note, the spring pad has undergone no deformity, it only let go of the body. Granted, it was due to an abusive condition, but my point is that the epoxy lets parts go, sometimes before the metal even puts up a fight (unlike the above trunk floor).

This issue is so common, some coilover manufacturers began mounting the spring perch on the upper spring pad to avoid body damage. What this can yield, especially with a linear spring, is damaged upper control arms. This also happens when running a perpendicular spring mount, but leaving it loose, it'll save the body and sacrifice the arm over time.

Your examples of supercar parts illustrates the capabilities of epoxy resin. It's not the same stuff being used in the BMW, to bridge gaps the filler foam is strong, but doesnt even begin to compare to the strength yielded in the bonds per square inch in the application of of things that have no gap as they're aluminum fittings completely surrounded by carbon, soaked in epoxy resin.

My roof is held on with epoxy, i've even had some experiments with bushings and it has proven more rigid than cast aluminum, but that was yet different than this foam. Yet, it is more effective to reinforce the the body by filling the underfloor with foam than to do nothing and just weld the lower HPF reinforcements as done in the above car. If it also had epoxy in the floor, it would have been way better than it was.

But really, the only appropriate reinforcement is something that ties the subframe mount points to the framerail and the strut tower. It's really unfortunate that this chassis can't hold together without giving up trunk space and cargo room. But if you're not really approaching this level of torque and grip and destructive exertion, by all means, epoxy your street car and be nice to it.
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:45 PM   #60
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yeah, I see what you're saying and you're probably right. I was just hating for no reason I guess, my bad!

Anyways, here's a question for you. The HPF kit is a bit thicker than the TMS right, do you think it's harder to get good fusion to the thin chassis metal this welds up to because of that additional thickness?

Also with those bars welded across from the frame rails, how about doing the same to the front subframe mount points so all four points are as robust as possible.
The front points don't see the same forces. The front points push up as the rear points are pulling done. I also have 5mm plate seam welded in on the underneath floor of the car from one side to the other on the front and rear mounts. This is strong enough for the front mounts and hold the stress of the front mounts pushing up by just distributing the load on a thicker peice of metal across the width of the floor.

Remember the plating I did on the floor was the first bracing I did. That was my version of the HPF/Turner kits. Then I had the whole floor pull done so the brace is version 2. I told people years ago this would happen with the Turner kits after my first experience, but I was laughed at by the masses on here and told I didn't know what I was talking about. I was also told I was basically lieing saying there was M3's in europe that make over 1000hp and now look at what is being posted on this forum. Notice a pattern. Maybe all the the people on here that just disregard what I have said just because I'm not an American might start to listen to some of the bullsh!t I say now without putting it down to all sh!t talk
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