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Old 03-17-2012, 06:33 PM   #61
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........ I told people years ago this would happen with the Turner kits after my first experience, but I was laughed at by the masses on here and told I didn't know what I was talking about. I was also told I was basically lieing saying there was M3's in europe that make over 1000hp and now look at what is being posted on this forum. Notice a pattern........

I feel you,..... Ignorance is a problem.
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:53 PM   #62
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...but I was laughed at by the masses on here and told I didn't know what I was talking about.
it's not like there was unanimous disagreement with you. I thought your trunk cage was sick the first time you posted it.
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:28 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by bluejeansonfire View Post
Regarding my bias, you're correct, most people wont put their chassis through what mine has seen. But it's no isolated incident. Look at the trunk images above. The primary means of attaching the trunk floor to the frame rail is epoxy, it failed. Granted, it's a poor design, and it's not like more bond strength would fix it as even the steel tears, but despite the steel tearing here and there, it seems like just about everything that was epoxy'd together has failed in the trunk. A weld reinforces the joint point, not to mention molecular continuity.

Also, what I experienced can be found on just about every chassis that runs a rigid lower spring mount and a linear spring long term. Linear springs can be used, but extended exposure to linear springs with a lower spring perch that jacks the spring into the body at an angle will induce some movement of the upper spring pad in the chassis. This can be corrected by running a beehive style spring or a spherical spring mount. I should note, the spring pad has undergone no deformity, it only let go of the body. Granted, it was due to an abusive condition, but my point is that the epoxy lets parts go, sometimes before the metal even puts up a fight (unlike the above trunk floor).

This issue is so common, some coilover manufacturers began mounting the spring perch on the upper spring pad to avoid body damage. What this can yield, especially with a linear spring, is damaged upper control arms. This also happens when running a perpendicular spring mount, but leaving it loose, it'll save the body and sacrifice the arm over time.

Your examples of supercar parts illustrates the capabilities of epoxy resin. It's not the same stuff being used in the BMW, to bridge gaps the filler foam is strong, but doesnt even begin to compare to the strength yielded in the bonds per square inch in the application of of things that have no gap as they're aluminum fittings completely surrounded by carbon, soaked in epoxy resin.

My roof is held on with epoxy, i've even had some experiments with bushings and it has proven more rigid than cast aluminum, but that was yet different than this foam. Yet, it is more effective to reinforce the the body by filling the underfloor with foam than to do nothing and just weld the lower HPF reinforcements as done in the above car. If it also had epoxy in the floor, it would have been way better than it was.

But really, the only appropriate reinforcement is something that ties the subframe mount points to the framerail and the strut tower. It's really unfortunate that this chassis can't hold together without giving up trunk space and cargo room. But if you're not really approaching this level of torque and grip and destructive exertion, by all means, epoxy your street car and be nice to it.
I believe we are talking about different things. As in, I was attempting to discuss attaching a subframe reenforcement kit (such as Turner's) with epoxy vs attaching it with welding. I was never was a trying to say that epoxied in plates would be stronger than welded in chassis bracing integrated into the subframe.

My race car has all 4 subframe mounts (as well as all 4 shock towers) integrated into the roll cage, all via welding. That's a solid fix, clearly, that isn't going anywhere.

For my street car, however... I'm not willing to give up the trunk. The reason I have an M3 instead of a 911/cayman/vette/Z4MC is practicality-- namely, a real trunk and a real back seat. Any solution that eliminates them renders the car invalid, imo.

And, btw, my car has 600 lb linear springs in it for 120,000 miles, including 4000 track miles, much of which was on 285 square r comps/slicks... so it's had it's fair share of stress. It had the subframe tear out a first time at 48,000 miles (circa 2007), at which point the damage was repaired and the TMS kit was welded in.

Sadly I recently discovered that they didn't do a great job with weather sealing after installing it, so I'm having some rust issues now. Currently debating on how I'm going to proceed.

Current plan of attack:
-cut out current rear floor
-weld in vert floor (supposedly stronger design-- in the class action lawsuit cars, car that were damaged beyond repair had their rear floors replaced with vert rear floors)
-fill with BMW's structural foam (during the class action lawsuit, cars with small cracks had the cracks welded together and then structural foam injected)
-epoxy on TMS plates

I completely agree that it still won't be as strong of a fix as bracing the rear, but it does preserve trunk functionality. I feel fairly confident that the combined effect should be strong enough, especially now that I have a dedicated race car and am not tracking this one. Vert floor rarely rip out, structural foam was BMW's fix for small cracks so it should actually add some significant degree of strength (especially starting with an uncracked floor), and the plates certainly address the weakest part of the subframe (even if that means they're eventually transferring the load down the line... still takes it off the buttery soft portion).

The part I'm deliberating on is epoxying the plates on the new floor vs welding them on. Mentioned it here to see if anyone had any solid arguments against epoxy. Two of my three solutions come directly from BMW, which implies to me that they do something to improve the situation. The 3rd (plates) I'm considering epoxy mostly because it has no chance of compromising the panel and makes it so I won't rust out again.
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:43 PM   #64
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I had a 328ci that tore out and got the BMW replacement floorboard. I then found the replacement tore out after 2+ years and sold the car. My ZHP has the TMS kit welded in by a reputable shop, will see how things go
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:55 PM   #65
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As a result of this thread we took a look at the HPF track car more closely and decided to tie the top side of the subframe mounts to the roll cage in both the HPF track M3 and the HPF drag M3. I'll post up pics on Monday.

Chris.
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Old 03-17-2012, 10:04 PM   #66
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Has anyone tried the Mason Engineering 3 piece rear strut tower bar?
http://www.masonengineering.net/imag...oorsupport.jpg
Seems like this helps with the problem while not taking too much of the trunk space..
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:35 PM   #67
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^^^^I think if you read the thread entirely you would see that mason engineering was mentioned.
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:41 PM   #68
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I have full boot/trunk space with my brace. It's only a 50mm hump in the floor. Actually it's good cause you can put smaller boxes behind it and it holds them between the back seat and the brace. But if you need to fold the seats down then you can still stick things all the way through with a full opening less 50mm where the brace is.
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:43 PM   #69
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As a result of this thread we took a look at the HPF track car more closely and decided to tie the top side of the subframe mounts to the roll cage in both the HPF track M3 and the HPF drag M3. I'll post up pics on Monday.

Chris.
Good to see the forum do work for you with their original intention. Learn from others misfortune
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Old 03-18-2012, 04:47 AM   #70
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those that dont think epoxy works just dont know what real epoxy is... specialist epoxy for bonding metal has been used for high stress joints all over the aeronautics industry for decades and is now filtering down to motorsport in a big way... show me a car that competed in the latest Dakar rally that uses welds rather than bonding with epoxy and i will be very surprised...

epoxy also absorbs shock better than an weld and does not fatigue... there are places where welding makes more sense than epoxy because of surface area, but for reinforcement plates like the turner ones it really is the best way to do it no two ways about it...
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:51 AM   #71
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I have full boot/trunk space with my brace. It's only a 50mm hump in the floor. Actually it's good cause you can put smaller boxes behind it and it holds them between the back seat and the brace. But if you need to fold the seats down then you can still stick things all the way through with a full opening less 50mm where the brace is.
Can you please post photos of this? I really think your set up will be the best route for my application. I checked what appeared to be your original thread on the topic but the photos are no longer there:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=645037
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:51 AM   #72
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those that dont think epoxy works just dont know what real epoxy is... specialist epoxy for bonding metal has been used for high stress joints all over the aeronautics industry for decades and is now filtering down to motorsport in a big way... show me a car that competed in the latest Dakar rally that uses welds rather than bonding with epoxy and i will be very surprised...

epoxy also absorbs shock better than an weld and does not fatigue... there are places where welding makes more sense than epoxy because of surface area, but for reinforcement plates like the turner ones it really is the best way to do it no two ways about it...
I am not familiar with Rally racing, but are you saying that Rally vehicles that have tubular chassis are glued together. Meaning the Metal tubular chassis connection points are epoxied together?
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Old 03-18-2012, 12:08 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I believe we are talking about different things. As in, I was attempting to discuss attaching a subframe reenforcement kit (such as Turner's) with epoxy vs attaching it with welding. I was never was a trying to say that epoxied in plates would be stronger than welded in chassis bracing integrated into the subframe.

My race car has all 4 subframe mounts (as well as all 4 shock towers) integrated into the roll cage, all via welding. That's a solid fix, clearly, that isn't going anywhere.

For my street car, however... I'm not willing to give up the trunk. The reason I have an M3 instead of a 911/cayman/vette/Z4MC is practicality-- namely, a real trunk and a real back seat. Any solution that eliminates them renders the car invalid, imo.

And, btw, my car has 600 lb linear springs in it for 120,000 miles, including 4000 track miles, much of which was on 285 square r comps/slicks... so it's had it's fair share of stress. It had the subframe tear out a first time at 48,000 miles (circa 2007), at which point the damage was repaired and the TMS kit was welded in.

Sadly I recently discovered that they didn't do a great job with weather sealing after installing it, so I'm having some rust issues now. Currently debating on how I'm going to proceed.

Current plan of attack:
-cut out current rear floor
-weld in vert floor (supposedly stronger design-- in the class action lawsuit cars, car that were damaged beyond repair had their rear floors replaced with vert rear floors)
-fill with BMW's structural foam (during the class action lawsuit, cars with small cracks had the cracks welded together and then structural foam injected)
-epoxy on TMS plates

I completely agree that it still won't be as strong of a fix as bracing the rear, but it does preserve trunk functionality. I feel fairly confident that the combined effect should be strong enough, especially now that I have a dedicated race car and am not tracking this one. Vert floor rarely rip out, structural foam was BMW's fix for small cracks so it should actually add some significant degree of strength (especially starting with an uncracked floor), and the plates certainly address the weakest part of the subframe (even if that means they're eventually transferring the load down the line... still takes it off the buttery soft portion).

The part I'm deliberating on is epoxying the plates on the new floor vs welding them on. Mentioned it here to see if anyone had any solid arguments against epoxy. Two of my three solutions come directly from BMW, which implies to me that they do something to improve the situation. The 3rd (plates) I'm considering epoxy mostly because it has no chance of compromising the panel and makes it so I won't rust out again.
I think we're talking abou the same thing. In fact, I think we're in agreement. If I had a NA s54 street car, I wouldn't think to ever do any more than the TMS kit. But the point of this thread is dealing with big torque and countering its destructive forces.

If you've had linear springs for that long, I hope you're mounting them appropriately, many companies' height adjusters cause some funny and dysfunctional angles. It also depends on the level of preload of the spring. A bit of preload helps a bit.

Jesus, how bad is your rear floor that you want to cut it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF Chris View Post
As a result of this thread we took a look at the HPF track car more closely and decided to tie the top side of the subframe mounts to the roll cage in both the HPF track M3 and the HPF drag M3. I'll post up pics on Monday.

Chris.
You've been building e46M high powered cars for like 5 years now, it wasn't until this thread that you came to realize this issue?
This has been done to NA race cars for a short eternity.
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Old 03-18-2012, 12:34 PM   #74
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I am not familiar with Rally racing, but are you saying that Rally vehicles that have tubular chassis are glued together. Meaning the Metal tubular chassis connection points are epoxied together?
the cages are welded because there is not enough surface area for glue... im sure a cage could be designed to be bonded, but you will find regulations stand in the way of that for now... im not sure if they are allowed to bond the cage to the chassis yet, but i do know almost all the other reinforcement is bonded on...

like i said in my previous post there are places when bonding does not make sense so use the right tool for the job, but the subframe reinforcement plates are a perfect example where bonding will work well as long as a specialist metal bonding epoxy is used...

i used ADEKIT A 140/ADEKIT H 9940 made by Axson its mostly used for helicopters, but it does a really good job on cars also i know Loctite have a similar product that is widely used on rally cars but it was easier for me to get Axson so i went with that...

here is a funny link i found a little bit back where i guy is going crazy with glue at the Dakar i found it quite funny

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Old 03-18-2012, 02:43 PM   #75
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Can you please photos of this? I really think your set up will be the best route for my application. I checked what appeared to be your original thread on the topic but the photos are no longer there:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=645037

This is the reason you need to read the ENTIRE thread, your answer is waiting for you in post #15; very first picture.



Good luck.
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Old 03-18-2012, 03:49 PM   #76
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Here are some pics before painting to give you a better idea











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Old 03-18-2012, 03:59 PM   #77
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Haven't read the thread entirely yet, but here is a solution from Mason Engineering:



http://www.masonengineering.net/imag...oorsupport.jpg

Saw it in person at his shop and it looked beautiful!
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:17 PM   #78
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:19 PM   #79
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fail, mike
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:36 PM   #80
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This is the reason you need to read the ENTIRE thread, your answer is waiting for you in post #15; very first picture.

Good luck.
Hey Rob,

Maybe you should have read my ENTIRE post? I was referring to the photos (plural) that were contained in the link of 02PRUV's previous thread (the link I referenced). I saw the singular repair photo in post 15 which is exactly why I tracked down 02PRUV's original thread to find more photos.

Instead of trying to be condescending and unhelpful, maybe you should have contributed something useful in response to my inquiry. I asked for more photos and 02PRUV subsequently posted more photos of the repair that we can all benefit from, including you.

Thanks again Allan
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