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Old 06-30-2013, 04:29 PM   #1
Twin_Turbo_S54
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Billet S54 block

Can someone find a billet block manufacturer?

If we can get 10 orders this Project may come through.
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Old 06-30-2013, 06:25 PM   #2
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why
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Old 06-30-2013, 06:36 PM   #3
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why
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:05 PM   #4
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:08 PM   #5
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Billet S54 block

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Old 06-30-2013, 10:44 PM   #6
Twin_Turbo_S54
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the "weakest" point on S54 i the block.

rods/pistons/bearings/valves/head studs and other internals can be modified up to high power levels but the block remains weak.

lately the number of 900 whp M3s increased. all these 900 + whp M3s will soon discover the weakest point as the block itself.

a billet block will help us to put 1000 + whp reliable.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:10 PM   #7
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how many have you broken? and pics?
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:53 AM   #8
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so billet means forged?
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:58 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin_Turbo_S54 View Post
Can someone find a billet block manufacturer?

If we can get 10 orders this Project may come through.
Mert,

If I was to do something like this, the first thing I would change would be the deck height. (Improve the rod ratio, and give space for larger crank strokes)

Secondly, I would want to run sleeves...not because a sleeve alone is better, but because you can control the metallurgy better for advanced coatings to be applied. There is a reason why Capricorn only applies their best coating system to their own sleeves. (Previously known as Perfect Bore) The better coatings involved heat to apply, and I would venture that most billet alloys used for block manufacturer, would probably start to anneal with the heat. (Softens the aluminum)

Third, the oil system for an extreme build should be dry sump. (This precludes being a "street" car, which most people seem to be focused on.) I would revise the oil system so that the block and cylinder head had separate HP feeds, and a common drain back. This would allow volume control for the bottom end, which requires most of the oil volume, and pressure control for the top end which likes higher pressures.

$10k is a starting point......but from experience the cost of the block isn't the expensive bit. It's all the other things you plan to change...because the block now allows it, that add up. A good crank/rod/piston package will be another $10k...then the dry sump which with 2 pressure stages, 3 scavenge...easily another $10k with all the trimmings.

And then you get into heat management. Most built-for-purpose high-hp engines need heat in them to be at proper clearances. Problem is, when they are cold, those clearances in some places will destroy the engine if you try to idle it up to temp. This is why it takes 2 hrs to start an F1 engine, because you need to pre-heat everything before it starts. Heat management in this case is the ability to externally cycle oil and coolant to bring everything up to temp before starting. Those systems are silly expensive.....

I would not do a billet block unless I was going to take advantage of ALL of the tricks....and that's an expensive question to answer.
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:14 AM   #10
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Re: Billet S54 block

Subbed for curiosity.

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Old 07-01-2013, 11:53 AM   #11
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Re: Billet S54 block

How did the sweeds hit 1200hp on the stock block?!

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Old 07-01-2013, 02:48 PM   #12
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How did the sweeds hit 1200hp on the stock block?!

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1260 whp on stretcar
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:13 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
Mert,

If I was to do something like this, the first thing I would change would be the deck height. (Improve the rod ratio, and give space for larger crank strokes)

Secondly, I would want to run sleeves...not because a sleeve alone is better, but because you can control the metallurgy better for advanced coatings to be applied. There is a reason why Capricorn only applies their best coating system to their own sleeves. (Previously known as Perfect Bore) The better coatings involved heat to apply, and I would venture that most billet alloys used for block manufacturer, would probably start to anneal with the heat. (Softens the aluminum)

Third, the oil system for an extreme build should be dry sump. (This precludes being a "street" car, which most people seem to be focused on.) I would revise the oil system so that the block and cylinder head had separate HP feeds, and a common drain back. This would allow volume control for the bottom end, which requires most of the oil volume, and pressure control for the top end which likes higher pressures.

$10k is a starting point......but from experience the cost of the block isn't the expensive bit. It's all the other things you plan to change...because the block now allows it, that add up. A good crank/rod/piston package will be another $10k...then the dry sump which with 2 pressure stages, 3 scavenge...easily another $10k with all the trimmings.

And then you get into heat management. Most built-for-purpose high-hp engines need heat in them to be at proper clearances. Problem is, when they are cold, those clearances in some places will destroy the engine if you try to idle it up to temp. This is why it takes 2 hrs to start an F1 engine, because you need to pre-heat everything before it starts. Heat management in this case is the ability to externally cycle oil and coolant to bring everything up to temp before starting. Those systems are silly expensive.....

I would not do a billet block unless I was going to take advantage of ALL of the tricks....and that's an expensive question to answer.
Before all else, I don't put myself in the same league of knowledge as PIE330Ci or any other hard core wrencher. In fact I consider the following to be the equivalent of stating the obvious for anyone who really is into these sorts of things.

Anyway, I'd be honored if any correction or comments.

There are other optimizations with the S54 platform that ideally could be addressed:

1. The wall clearances between cylinders is very tight, changing that would mean necessarily new heads and a new crank at the very least. Such a modification could just be a requisite for changing the alloy used in the block.

2. Some speculation suggests the main caps and center journals on the lower end should be beefed up for high HP applications.

3. Being a cast iron piece, it's quite heavy. Newer materials could be employed in a rebuilt block, that could mean working out all the metallurgy calculations to meet the requirements of internal forces, vibrations, friction and cooling requirements. Basically engineering a new engine from ground up.

If someone is serious about rebuilding a beefed up version of the platform it makes sense to examine whether grabbing something already baked would be enough reach performance goals. LSX probably being the cheapest option. For the BMW purists maybe the S85 is appealing.

My guess is going the route of an engine swap would be much more cost and time effective simply because your project starts with parts that is already engineered for high performance and readily available for purchase.

All the performance options continue to be on the table: Dry Sump, boring and stroking, and maybe even sleeves (if you want to ignore the alusil related issues in the S85 and go with sleeves) and you would have saved yourself all the time associated with ironing out design, material and fabrication related bugs.

The question I have for Mert is: Do the limitations that cause you to consider a billet block get addressed by simply transplanting?
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:40 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Cipri View Post
How did the sweeds hit 1200hp on the stock block?!

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I cannot speak on behalf of Swedes. All I know is about my experience.

Dyno numbers mean nothing, we need to see either 1/4 mile times or 60-130 and 100-150 mph times.

I think as more people will push the S54 envelope more block related issues will arise.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:50 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
Mert,

If I was to do something like this, the first thing I would change would be the deck height. (Improve the rod ratio, and give space for larger crank strokes)

Secondly, I would want to run sleeves...not because a sleeve alone is better, but because you can control the metallurgy better for advanced coatings to be applied. There is a reason why Capricorn only applies their best coating system to their own sleeves. (Previously known as Perfect Bore) The better coatings involved heat to apply, and I would venture that most billet alloys used for block manufacturer, would probably start to anneal with the heat. (Softens the aluminum)

Third, the oil system for an extreme build should be dry sump. (This precludes being a "street" car, which most people seem to be focused on.) I would revise the oil system so that the block and cylinder head had separate HP feeds, and a common drain back. This would allow volume control for the bottom end, which requires most of the oil volume, and pressure control for the top end which likes higher pressures.

$10k is a starting point......but from experience the cost of the block isn't the expensive bit. It's all the other things you plan to change...because the block now allows it, that add up. A good crank/rod/piston package will be another $10k...then the dry sump which with 2 pressure stages, 3 scavenge...easily another $10k with all the trimmings.

And then you get into heat management. Most built-for-purpose high-hp engines need heat in them to be at proper clearances. Problem is, when they are cold, those clearances in some places will destroy the engine if you try to idle it up to temp. This is why it takes 2 hrs to start an F1 engine, because you need to pre-heat everything before it starts. Heat management in this case is the ability to externally cycle oil and coolant to bring everything up to temp before starting. Those systems are silly expensive.....

I would not do a billet block unless I was going to take advantage of ALL of the tricks....and that's an expensive question to answer.

Adam,

I would like to meet you in person one day in my life.

Thank you very much for the detailed write up.
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:19 PM   #16
Twin_Turbo_S54
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Originally Posted by FragNasty View Post
Before all else, I don't put myself in the same league of knowledge as PIE330Ci or any other hard core wrencher. In fact I consider the following to be the equivalent of stating the obvious for anyone who really is into these sorts of things.

Anyway, I'd be honored if any correction or comments.

There are other optimizations with the S54 platform that ideally could be addressed:

1. The wall clearances between cylinders is very tight, changing that would mean necessarily new heads and a new crank at the very least. Such a modification could just be a requisite for changing the alloy used in the block.

2. Some speculation suggests the main caps and center journals on the lower end should be beefed up for high HP applications.

3. Being a cast iron piece, it's quite heavy. Newer materials could be employed in a rebuilt block, that could mean working out all the metallurgy calculations to meet the requirements of internal forces, vibrations, friction and cooling requirements. Basically engineering a new engine from ground up.

If someone is serious about rebuilding a beefed up version of the platform it makes sense to examine whether grabbing something already baked would be enough reach performance goals. LSX probably being the cheapest option. For the BMW purists maybe the S85 is appealing.

My guess is going the route of an engine swap would be much more cost and time effective simply because your project starts with parts that is already engineered for high performance and readily available for purchase.

All the performance options continue to be on the table: Dry Sump, boring and stroking, and maybe even sleeves (if you want to ignore the alusil related issues in the S85 and go with sleeves) and you would have saved yourself all the time associated with ironing out design, material and fabrication related bugs.

The question I have for Mert is: Do the limitations that cause you to consider a billet block get addressed by simply transplanting?

Very nice write up.

I built my own billet main caps 3 years ago and still the block remains the weakest link.

lsx based engines will make 2-3 times more power but wont make me happy.

just saw a supra thread 1300 whp dyno Dynamics, thats like 1500 dyno jet...
Supra platform has been pushed a lot throughout the years so we also need to work on the S54.
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Old 07-02-2013, 01:38 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Twin_Turbo_S54 View Post
Very nice write up.

I built my own billet main caps 3 years ago and still the block remains the weakest link.

lsx based engines will make 2-3 times more power but wont make me happy.

just saw a supra thread 1300 whp dyno Dynamics, thats like 1500 dyno jet...
Supra platform has been pushed a lot throughout the years so we also need to work on the S54.
Mates of mine have a Torana setup with a 2JZ for drag week that's going on the ship this weekend. It's a N/A block with billet main caps, stock crank, N/A stock head with stock size good valves, good valve springs with stock N/A exhaust manifolds turned upside down, a modified stock N/A intake manifold. It makes 1300rwhp @ 60psi on a Dyno Dynamics through a turbo 400 and a 9inch. That is crazy power for a 186ci engine
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Old 07-02-2013, 01:41 AM   #18
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Good luck with this Mert... But I think my wallets going to sit this one out.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:17 AM   #19
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Mates of mine have a Torana setup with a 2JZ for drag week that's going on the ship this weekend. It's a N/A block with billet main caps, stock crank, N/A stock head with stock size good valves, good valve springs with stock N/A exhaust manifolds turned upside down, a modified stock N/A intake manifold. It makes 1300rwhp @ 60psi on a Dyno Dynamics through a turbo 400 and a 9inch. That is crazy power for a 186ci engine
Allan, I saw it over Suprafrms. In shoot out mode that 2JZ made 1300 whp, this is 1500 whp on dyno jet.

Dyno graph shows 60 psi as well

I ve asked the max engine speed and was told it was 9500 rpm.

Serious power out of 186 cid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusLSB View Post
Good luck with this Mert... But I think my wallets going to sit this one out.
Marcus, if you are out of game WHO will be in
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:20 AM   #20
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Allan, I saw it over Suprafrms. In shoot out mode that 2JZ made 1300 whp, this is 1500 whp on dyno jet.

Dyno graph shows 60 psi as well

I ve asked the max engine speed and was told it was 9500 rpm.

Serious power out of 186 cid.




Marcus, if you are out of game WHO will be in
I think the blocks hold enough power for the majority of the crowd as they stand.. its going to be hard to sell a billet block for those looking for more than 1200rwhp or so.. just not enough market for it.
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