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Old 03-20-2012, 10:41 PM   #201
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He's already getting it lol.
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:48 PM   #202
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HPF offers it as an option to their stage 3's and I do believe they are standard in the Stage 4. HPF sends the blocks to darton to sleeve them.
The sleeved option was an option based on the fact if you were going to be doing long hard pulls to the top of the speedo. Instead of being over bored(Non-sleeved) you would be under bored(sleeved). I think the the thought was to be able to dispurse more heat. Not allowing the thin walls on the over bored blocks to heat up too much and crack. Could be wrong on this. But I'm pretty sure this was the what I was told int the beginning.
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:49 PM   #203
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I haven't read all of this, but all I can say is wow.
Over the years we have seen it all - VF slams AA's build quality and power gains, takes market share... HPF slams VF's build quality and power gains, takes market share.... On and on and on.

I'm just a casual observer behind the scenes, but I have a few curious questions:

Sleeving a block is not something new. I'd dare say that outside of Taza, HPF cars were the first S54's to have it done, and push the envelope in a matter of speaking.

While Chris's biased videos and some of his comments didn't help his case with this crowd, I commend him for entering the BMW market a few years ago and producing a viable product when AA pulled out and focused solely on superchargers.

Lets not forget that Chris does not have the engineering background (I don't think) of Active or 30 + years in the game. He is obviously a great business man and has done well with his business.

That being said, is the focus now on the sleeves and possibly how Darton installed them? Was it Chris's engine builder that screwed up?

Either which way, the videos and disclosure are great and really give us the reader a great background on these motors. I commend those who are pushing the envelope constantly as they pave the way for others.

Last 3 things.

1 - When doubling ++ the original HP and torque of this inline 6 motor, did the OP expect it to last forever?
2 - Even though he screwed up with his original biased video and they way he responded to the OP, I still feel Chris should have been given the chance to make this right. These first few sleeved blocks were essentially test mules (in my eyes), and after a thorough independent evaluation Chris (I think) would have taken care of Marcus. Its always easy for another company to step in and talk about how horrible the previous builders work is/was.
3 - To the new engine builder, had Marcus or any of the other HPF turbo stage 3+ guys come to you first, would you have considered using sleeves?

I wish everyone, especially the OP all the best in the rebuild, and I hope it totally exceeds your expectations.

To HPF - I hope this whole experience is regarded as a learning experience, and you move forward by contacting the other sleeved block customers and having their vehicles in for inspection. I think this will go along way in keeping some of your potential market share. You know how fickle we all can be!
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:52 PM   #204
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He's already getting it lol.
What else do you know?

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Old 03-20-2012, 10:57 PM   #205
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What else do you know?

Everything....




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Old 03-20-2012, 11:01 PM   #206
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The sleeved option was an option based on the fact if you were going to be doing long hard pulls to the top of the speedo. Instead of being over bored(Non-sleeved) you would be under bored(sleeved). I think the the thought was to be able to dispurse more heat. Not allowing the thin walls on the over bored blocks to heat up too much and crack. Could be wrong on this. But I'm pretty sure this was the what I was told int the beginning.
The theory sounds solid. But I'm not an expert so ill go with that lol.

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Everything....




And then....



Apparently I have to turbo my car to get any information out of you guys haha.
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:25 PM   #207
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It is nice to see a legit vid with real tools measuring what is really going on, cylinder to cylinder as well as the issue with #5. You can really see the sleeves separating. What a bummer. The clear indicator was only one of six having failed. It is especially telling when you can see the wave on the bore scope. Can't wait to see the final product! ( That will be impervious to cam timing, wire harnesses, fuels, and EMS. )
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:39 PM   #208
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Lets not forget that Chris does not have the engineering background (I don't think) of Active or 30 + years in the game. He is obviously a great business man and has done well with his business.
Its not hard to sell 800rwhp cars.

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Last 3 things.

1 - When doubling ++ the original HP and torque of this inline 6 motor, did the OP expect it to last forever?
2 - Even though he screwed up with his original biased video and they way he responded to the OP, I still feel Chris should have been given the chance to make this right. These first few sleeved blocks were essentially test mules (in my eyes), and after a thorough independent evaluation Chris (I think) would have taken care of Marcus. Its always easy for another company to step in and talk about how horrible the previous builders work is/was.
3 - To the new engine builder, had Marcus or any of the other HPF turbo stage 3+ guys come to you first, would you have considered using sleeves?
1. I would hope that the motor would go 50k miles driving it like miss daisy and maybe 25k miles or so if I drove it like a bat out of hell every weekend.. not 4k miles simply limping it to and from the shop.

2. Chris was given many a chance.. it was clear to me in the first few discussions that I was being used to attack ProEFI. Its obvious that Chris truly believed it was the tune... and he was likely told that by Brian @ M&B.. because if he realized it wasn't the tune I can't imagine he would have simply discarded the case of to the side and moved on without trying to determine the REAL cause of the failure. I never felt comfortable having Chris rebuild my engine if he couldn't figure out what the REAL issue was. That always bothered me, what's interesting is if you go back and read the blown motor thread started by Chris.. you can clearly see that my concerns were always about finding out the real issue and avoiding it in future builds.. I never felt it was the tune.. the car ran absolutely perfectly post ProEFI. I loved how the car drove.. if that was a 'bad tune' .. I'll take that 'bad tune' any day of the week.

3. Not to answer for Saad/Jason but I spoke with them when my engine was still running, months and months ago.. and they never liked that I had sleeves and felt they were a poor decision for a 'street motor' .. but if you ask anyone about sleeves you'll always wind up with a slightly divided opinion.

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I wish everyone, especially the OP all the best in the rebuild, and I hope it totally exceeds your expectations.

To HPF - I hope this whole experience is regarded as a learning experience, and you move forward by contacting the other sleeved block customers and having their vehicles in for inspection. I think this will go along way in keeping some of your potential market share. You know how fickle we all can be!
Thanks! Its definitely a learning experience and while its a tragedy it's really been educational as well.
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:45 PM   #209
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Thanks! Its definitely a learning experience and while its a tragedy it's really been educational as well.
For you and for the rest of us as well
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:48 PM   #210
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Jason,

So the typical piston to wall clearance should be??? .004-.005?
Also what causes the bore to ovalize as much as it has? And lastly why do you suspect so much carbon build up on the pistons with only 3k on motor and running e85? It's hard to tell from the video but cylinder 6 looks like deep "creators" In the piston like something went through the motor but again it could be a optical illusion from the video.
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:49 PM   #211
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Jason and SAAD's video makes much more sense to me as the true cause of what happened. Chris, you really should step up here and help Marcus out, this isn't looking good.

Also, just because Marcus has one single sleeve failure, that does not mean that all of the sleeved motors are bad builds. Darton very well could have made a mistake on just that one single sleeve.... We will know in due time though...
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:52 PM   #212
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Vik, if I remember correctly, your block was not bored out too much prior to installing the sleeves and your motor is closer to a 3.0l?
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:12 AM   #213
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Jason,

So the typical piston to wall clearance should be??? .004-.005?
Also what causes the bore to ovalize as much as it has? And lastly why do you suspect so much carbon build up on the pistons with only 3k on motor and running e85? It's hard to tell from the video but cylinder 6 looks like deep "creators" In the piston like something went through the motor but again it could be a optical illusion from the video.
Two things likely caused that excessive build up..

1. The rich tune from when it left HPF combined with the 2000 miles put on it with that tune going to Vegas from Portland and from Vegas to the Bay Area.

2. The oil getting past the rings as well.

This clearly explains why plug #5 looked more carbon fouled then 1-4,6 in my original plug pull from when I got the car home from vegas.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:17 AM   #214
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This made me laugh harder!

I'll be here all week. CD's for sale at merchandise table near the front door.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:20 AM   #215
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I'll be here all week. CD's for sale at merchandise table near the front door.
I'm going to try and swing by Jason's tomorrow to check out your ride! Plus I haven't seen Adam and Jim in forever!!!
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:21 AM   #216
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Haha this thread is good for late night lulz!

How much for a cd and a signed Tshirt?
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:25 AM   #217
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I'm going to try and swing by Jason's tomorrow to check out your ride! Plus I haven't seen Adam and Jim in forever!!!
That car is an absolute mess right now.. it traveled through the rain, mountains, snow, etc .. it needs a SERIOUS detail. Don't judge a book by its cover.. she just needs a nice little detail and she'll shine right back up.

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Haha this thread is good for late night lulz!

How much for a cd and a signed Tshirt?
I should take that block and have it cut up into 100's of pieces and sell them as key chains.. lol
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:32 AM   #218
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Old 03-21-2012, 02:03 AM   #219
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Vik, if I remember correctly, your block was not bored out too much prior to installing the sleeves and your motor is closer to a 3.0l?

My block was not bored out from what I remember, so yes its like a 3.0-3.1 or so. We sleeved it to run excessive boost all the time and strengthen the cylinder walls.
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Old 03-21-2012, 02:05 AM   #220
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Cool, thanks for the info Taza! I know a few built HPF motors w/sleeves that are consuming oil like mine was.. does your car consume oil Taza? and when I say consume oil.. mine was consuming about 1qt every 500-600 miles..

My motor does not consume oil irregularly. Every 500-600 miles is crazy, Ive never even added oil into my car before!
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