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Old 03-26-2012, 10:32 AM   #21
hahalife
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Mj check your pms. Would love to see how the bav ones look installed.
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Old 04-05-2012, 02:34 AM   #22
MJLavelle
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Sorry for getting back to this subject a little late, but there was actually a 2 week wait to get the BavAuto mats direct from the manufacturer. That is a little strange, since I did not order anything custom. You would think they would take a risk and have a few sets of black, grey, and tan mats in stock.
Anyway, here is the first pic, of my 1.5 year old OEM BMW mats. This is how they look, after about 8k miles of use, which is pitiful, considering the price.


Untitled by MJLavelle, on Flickr

Here is the factory no slip, Velcro connector, which gave up on doing its job about 6 months ago.


Untitled by MJLavelle, on Flickr

Here is how the OEM rear mats look. The bad thing about this is that I have only had someone in the back seat about 5 times during the 1.5 years I have had these mats, and never for more than 30 minutes. I am pretty pissed that I spent $150 for these, and as you can see, the quality is terrible.


Untitled by MJLavelle, on Flickr

Here is a comparison of the new mat v/s the old OEM mat. They are exactly the same shape.


Untitled by MJLavelle, on Flickr

Here, you can see they have the exact same non slip Velcro pads as the OEM.


Untitled by MJLavelle, on Flickr

Here is the new drivers side mat, in place, as someone had requested. It is an exact fit.


Untitled by MJLavelle, on Flickr

Someone also mentioned not wanting BavAuto mats, because they don't have the Velcro pads like the OEM ones. When I spoke with BavAuto's customer service, I was told that all of their carpet mats come with the Velcro pads that work with the cars mounting system. So, if you have a set that does not have them, maybe they were not doing that when you bought them. They definitely have them now.
These mats are noticeably heavier, stiffer, and thicker than the OEM mats. They also come with a lifetime warranty, so I will definitely send them back if the start to wear away or if the Velcro pad tears off.
If you are wondering why I got black mats instead of tan, it is for 2 reasons. First, the black will show the dirt a lot less than the tan, and I am in the process of converting to a black and red interior. This post pretty much helped me decide what I wanted to do:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...994&highlight=
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:12 AM   #23
Stinger9
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OEM have nothing to do with velcro.
They have actual nylon type 1/2 turn screws that lock into holes in my floor. Cannot get loose and never have. Carpets have never slipped.
Carpet wore OK, so I must be much easier on my carpet than you are.
If you need such HD carpet because of your lifestyle, I might have considered some of the thick and more attractive rubber liners.
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Old 04-05-2012, 04:25 PM   #24
hahalife
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Great reply MJ. They definitely look great and seem very durable. Still got that extra set?
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:41 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Stinger9 View Post
OEM have nothing to do with velcro.
They have actual nylon type 1/2 turn screws that lock into holes in my floor. Cannot get loose and never have. Carpets have never slipped.
Carpet wore OK, so I must be much easier on my carpet than you are.
If you need such HD carpet because of your lifestyle, I might have considered some of the thick and more attractive rubber liners.
It looks like its an '01 in the pics, and you have an '04. His also seems to be an automatic as well. Is yours an auto or a manual? Am I the only one who seems to notice a "lemming-like" following as far as OEM stuff for this car? I just look at it from the perspective of "the OEM has only managed to last x amount of time, so why not try other options"? I mean some things we know better than to go aftermarket with, but c'mon, they're floormats! The ones in the picture obviously didn't last long. Although I AM wondering if the backing separation depicted in the photos of the REAR mats was caused by the infamous leaking problems...
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:05 AM   #26
MJLavelle
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Originally Posted by Stinger9 View Post
OEM have nothing to do with velcro.
They have actual nylon type 1/2 turn screws that lock into holes in my floor. Cannot get loose and never have. Carpets have never slipped.
Carpet wore OK, so I must be much easier on my carpet than you are.
If you need such HD carpet because of your lifestyle, I might have considered some of the thick and more attractive rubber liners.
Wow, you are really sure of yourself about the OEM mats not having Velcro. That usually sets off my BS meter. Just because your car does not have it, does not mean it is not OEM.
I saw 7 different versions of floor mats for the e46 on RealOEM.
http://realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.do?mo...id=47713&hg=51

My car has a round piece that screws in to the floor, with the hard side of the Velcro on top of it, that corresponds to the soft Velcro patches on the mats (BMW part # 07149166609)
The tan mats in the picture are OEM BMW, bought from Tischer BMW online. They came in BMW packaging. They replaced the original sets, that used the same Velcro attachment.
Here are mine, listed as an "Update" on RealOEM.com. I am guessing that this may be the design they stuck with, since this is what BavAuto sells as replacement mats. I would think that they chose to sell this type because the majority of the cars came with them. Why sell an obscure version? But I can't say for sure that the majority of e46's use this design.
http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...36&hg=51&fg=95

Also, the Velcro attached mats are the only ones listed for the e46 on Tischer's website:
http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...catalogid=4462

I am going to guess that you have something like this:
http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...41&hg=51&fg=55

When I searched for the part number for the ones with the "hole and hook" attachment system, this is what popped up. I don't see any holes, and they mention the invisible Velcro attachment:
http://parts.bmwofsouthatlanta.com/p...478227527.html

I did see hole and hook type being sold by ECS tuning, but they were not OEM. I wish BavAuto offered this as an option, since the hooks would probably hold better.

You can even order an OEM set with polished aluminum inserts, but I am not sure why. They look sort of cool, but that aluminum would get scratched up pretty bad I suspect.
http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...97&hg=51&fg=95
Here is a pic:
http://www.google.com/search?q=BMW+p...w=1024&bih=644

As for needing something for my "Lifestyle", it is not like I am climbing in my car with work boots after a day in a coal mine. I am just driving it to the store, movies, etc, in normal shoes. If anything, I probably drive far fewer miles than most of the people here. I can understand someone thinking they were heavily used, but that does not explain the condition of the rear mats, which were only used about 5 times since I installed them. I was not really asking for suggestions for what type of mats I should get, since I have already bought these. But there is no way I am going to switch to rubber mats, unless I move somewhere with a lot of snow in the winter. They may be useful, but they are not pretty.
Another poster asked for pics of my BavAuto mats installed in the car, which is why I posted these.
I decided to add the pics of the old ones, to show that OEM does not always mean high quality, as some others have implied. The carpet on my OEM mats was coming off in the first week of use, and of course BMW has no warranty, and would not even consider replacing them when I asked.
In my opinion, these BavAuto mats seem to be much higher quality, and they seem to be much more sturdy than the OEM set. And if they are not, then BavAuto is going to be replacing them under that lifetime warranty, maybe numerous times, if necessary.
In the end, this is just my experience. If your OEM mats held up better than this, then great. Mine did not. I just wanted to point out that someone expecting superior quality from OEM mats may be disappointed. Also, instead of just saying the the OEM mats were crap, I backed it up with pics. Since mine are listed as an "Update" on RealOEM, it is quite possible they switched to a lower cost source for their mats, in addition to changing to the Velcro mounting system.
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:15 AM   #27
MJLavelle
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Originally Posted by BMWBMX'er View Post
It looks like its an '01 in the pics, and you have an '04. His also seems to be an automatic as well. Is yours an auto or a manual? Am I the only one who seems to notice a "lemming-like" following as far as OEM stuff for this car? I just look at it from the perspective of "the OEM has only managed to last x amount of time, so why not try other options"? I mean some things we know better than to go aftermarket with, but c'mon, they're floormats! The ones in the picture obviously didn't last long. Although I AM wondering if the backing separation depicted in the photos of the REAR mats was caused by the infamous leaking problems...
Good reply. I know I fell for the "OEM must be better" idea when I bought the first set.
As far as the rear mats, that is not water damage. My interior is dry as a bone. The first time I noticed the backing coming off was when I was getting my nieces out of the backseat. If a 20 minute ride with three 7, 6, and 5 year olds whose feet could not even touch the floor can to do that damage, then that is bad. They are the only ones to ever ride in the back seat, and as I said earlier, it was never more than 30 minutes.
But thanks for mentioning the leak issue. I have read about that, and checked for it, but I have never found any water on any part of the floor.
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:19 AM   #28
MJLavelle
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Great reply MJ. They definitely look great and seem very durable. Still got that extra set?
I do have them, and I will look for them and send you some pics ASAP. BTW - they are black. I don't know if I mentioned that. They were in the car when I bought it, and the PO had put Armor All on them, so they were removed immediately. But I am sure the Armor All has worn away after 4 years.
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Old 04-06-2012, 09:13 AM   #29
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Wow, you are really sure of yourself about the OEM mats not having Velcro.
Yeah, guess I was wrong on this one. I'd heard so many people discuss the bolt down system I had that I just thought all were done like mine. Well, then that changes my approach to this. You've got no alternative to the pursuit of velcro, and I'm so glad I lucked into a system that works for me as opposed to all the problems you've had with all that you've used to date.
If I were you, I'd be using the aftermarket products too.
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Old 04-06-2012, 12:31 PM   #30
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I havent had a single issue with my weathertech floor liners and they fit like a glove.

They took a solid year of abuse from combat boots, passengers, and me driving a manual trans aggressively. Now they've had about a year of gentler wear from tennis shoes and still only show a slight wear patch by the gas pedal, none of the passenger ones show any wear. I can take them out and pressure wash them and everything comes right off, not a single stain. I've had all sorts of drinks, a few misc fluids, and motor oil on them too.

Just my 2 cents worth.

*edit* also, they dont have any sort of mounting system to complain about due to fitting so snugly!
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:07 PM   #31
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I havent had a single issue with my weathertech floor liners and they fit like a glove.

They took a solid year of abuse from combat boots, passengers, and me driving a manual trans aggressively. Now they've had about a year of gentler wear from tennis shoes and still only show a slight wear patch by the gas pedal, none of the passenger ones show any wear. I can take them out and pressure wash them and everything comes right off, not a single stain. I've had all sorts of drinks, a few misc fluids, and motor oil on them too.

Just my 2 cents worth.

*edit* also, they dont have any sort of mounting system to complain about due to fitting so snugly!
Pics please, I'm thinking about them. Just the price tag is scaring me a bit.
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:33 PM   #32
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Pics please, I'm thinking about them. Just the price tag is scaring me a bit.
You made me go vacuum my car out! But still forgive how dirty it is, it is definitely a daily driver...

The first few pictures are of the driver side, then we have passenger side, then we have the driver side removed, and you can see the hooks for the liners in place, then the final pics are just a quick rinse of the floor mat, and you can see that even the high-traffic area around the clutch and throttle pedals are worn, but not even close to wearing through. Again, this is after a solid year of combat boot wearing abuse(I was a Marine) and then lighter use over the past year from running and dress(ish) shoes, 2 years total.

If you use the pressure washer at a car wash these things come out solid clean black without much work at all.









The fronts have those hooks to hold things in place, and the rears are form fitted with nothing holding, but they definitely stay put.

Last edited by Rubenk; 04-06-2012 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:36 AM   #33
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I thought I would post an update on this thread, and my endorsement of the BavAuto "Ultimate" floor mats. I just posted some advice to someone about the BavAuto mats, and I thought that it seemed like it was about a year ago that I posted this, and that I should post an update. So many things like this die out, with no follow-up.

Anyway, on to the update. I have driven about 4k miles in the past year, and I have vacuumed these mats exactly one time in the past year. I am also happy to say that these mats have performed far above my expectations.
I can honestly say that there has been NO fiber shedding from these mats in that time. Since they are black mats on top of tan carpet, any shedding would be extremely noticeable. I don't say this about many products not made by Apple, but these mats have far exceeded my expectations! I honestly expected some initial shedding from new carpet, and was hoping that it would ONLY be initial shedding, since my OEM BMW mats performed so miserably, as you can see in post #22 above. This should put an end to the speculation that I was doing something especially abusive to my mats, or the incorrect speculation that I had some sort of water leak. My floor is still dry as a bone, as it always was, and I was not performing some strange form of "mat abuse".
I have also not had a single issue with the mats slipping, as I did with the OEM, which required nearly daily adjustment near the end. They simply have not moved at all. The backing is as solid as the day I bought them, and they have been moved only once, which was the day I vacuumed them.
So, I will say it - for $139 + shipping, these may be the best carpet mats available for a BMW. They also have a lifetime full replacement warranty, which I will take full advantage of, if I ever need to. I don't think that will be anytime soon though.
I believe the only other item for our cars that has a similar warranty would be a Stewart water pump.
I do not work for BavAuto, and I really have not purchased much from them, because their pricing certainly can be beat on most items. But, these mats have me wishing they made other interior parts that were this durable. Pillar covers this durable would be a nice thing to have, rather than the OEM ones, that seem to be covered in Unobtanium.
For those of you that have OEM mats, and have never had an issue with them I will simply say - Good for you! The photos above are proof that my experience was not the same. So, there is no need to write a post stating that you are thrilled with your OEM mats. This is for the people like me, who feel cheated for paying $175 for something that lasted about 18 months, and only looked good for the first 2 months. I am pleased and pleasantly surprised with my replacement choice, and wanted to share my experience with those who were wondering if BavAuto's claims were true.

I have to admit that I was surprised to see that I remembered this only one day short of one year! At least my mind still works, at least some of the time. A few of you will know why this pleases me so much. The rest of you will just wonder why I bothered to mention it.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:14 AM   #34
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I have to admit that I was surprised to see that I remembered this only one day short of one year! At least my mind still works, at least some of the time. A few of you will know why this pleases me so much. The rest of you will just wonder why I bothered to mention it.
Okay I give up. Why did you mention it?
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:27 AM   #35
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Okay I give up. Why did you mention it?
The very short and non-specific version-
I have been sick, it has suddenly gotten much worse, so I am happy my brain is not completely shot.

But then again, it lets me mention sh!t like this at 6:30am, after having been awake most of the night. So, maybe it is not doing so well.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:20 AM   #36
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But then again, it lets me mention sh!t like this at 6:30am, after having been awake most of the night. So, maybe it is not doing so well.
My best wishes and prayers that you do as well as can be expected, and exceed all expectations into the far future!
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:11 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by MJLavelle View Post
I don't say this about many products not made by Apple, but these mats have far exceeded my expectations![/I]
Lolololololol. :what:

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Old 04-05-2013, 05:53 PM   #38
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Lolololololol. :what:

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Lol all you want, but I have used PC's, the first two of which I had to build, because that was the only to get one, since the before the DOS era (you may need to look that up), and Windows, since the first version. I worked as a programmer/database designer/manager/etc since 1997, all of which was self taught. After my experience with iPhones and iPad, I finally bought a Mac Mini. It was up and running and on the Internet in less than 15min out of the box (without the Idiot Squad loading everything and tweaking it before it even left the store).
My wife is also a programmer and just finished up her assignment as the Project Manager for the largest SAS database conversion in the world (according to the SAS Reps). We have 4 laptops and a desktop PC, but that Mac Mini has become the most used computer in the house, and we are buying another iPad, to stop us from killing each other over using the one we have.
Throw in an Apple TV, which has quadrupled its usefulness since we bought it, simply through software updates pushed to it from Apple (for free, of course), and I have to say that I am pissed over all of the time I have wasted installing Windows updates, patches, and studying how to make some stupid Microsoft product do what it is supposed to do. So yes, I can say I am far more pleased with Apple than I have ever been with most other products.
Some people appreciate simplicity, not because they can't do complexity, but because they have done complexity to death, and something that just works right from the box, and does not require a manual, is greatly appreciated.

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Old 04-06-2013, 01:46 AM   #39
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Lol all you want, but I have used PC's, the first two of which I had to build, because that was the only to get one, since the before the DOS era (you may need to look that up), and Windows, since the first version. I worked as a programmer/database designer/manager/etc since 1997, all of which was self taught. After my experience with iPhones and iPad, I finally bought a Mac Mini. It was up and running and on the Internet in less than 15min out of the box (without the Idiot Squad loading everything and tweaking it before it even left the store).
My wife is also a programmer and just finished up her assignment as the Project Manager for the largest SAS database conversion in the world (according to the SAS Reps). We have 4 laptops and a desktop PC, but that Mac Mini has become the most used computer in the house, and we are buying another iPad, to stop us from killing each other over using the one we have.
Throw in an Apple TV, which has quadrupled its usefulness since we bought it, simply through software updates pushed to it from Apple (for free, of course), and I have to say that I am pissed over all of the time I have wasted installing Windows updates, patches, and studying how to make some stupid Microsoft product do what it is supposed to do. So yes, I can say I am far more pleased with Apple than I have ever been with most other products.
Some people appreciate simplicity, not because they can't do complexity, but because they have done complexity to death, and something that just works right from the box, and does not require a manual, is greatly appreciated.
To appreciate something, you must understand it's full potential. The reason for the humor is because your comment is so true, but yet so one sided. Apple is the best marketing and electronic monopolizing company in the world, hands down. But besides that, you are buying a closed source device that works in a very limited world (basically a super pretty device that can only do what Apple wants it to do without doing something "illegal" to it). If you, yourself are so involved with computers, then why would you want something so simple? That makes no sense. I am not a computer guru, but understand and appreciate them. Apple products are for those who don't want to get their hands dirty - people who just want to use computers. That's great for them (like my parents), but if your wife is such a programmer like you say she is, first off, that' awesome, but second, she would be horrified by Apple's sourcing and would be in a world of love if she was using Linux.

Linux is hands down the best option for a OS if you know what you are doing (which from what you tell me, you should know how to use), and for a computer itself, ASUS uses the best pieces for the price. If I wanted any $2,500 laptop, I would hands down buy a custom ASUS. Appreciating Apple products is one thing, but appreciating Steve Jobs is another. He did nothing but take the limelight from the most important person in the computer era, Dennis Ritchie. Jobs is nothing more than an entrepreneur who stole other ideas and then marketed them like a mad man. To his fortune, it worked.

Take a jab at my age, that's mature. The ironic thing is that I own multiple Apple products and love using them. Why? Because they are easy to use and make my life easier. That's it. In an everyday world that is electronically monopolized by Apple, it's just time that you are forced to give in to make your own personal life easier.

The fact of the matter is that, Apple under Steve Jobs was more about marketing then anything else. Steve never created the iPhone, a group of Apple members did, and guess what, five of them helped to find Linux and C programming. Not once did I bash you, Apple products, nor your opinion - in fact you jumped to conclusion before even understanding my comment, and I still haven't done any of that. I stated facts, that's not bashing. Don't get so defensive before understanding what someone means. More over, just don't get so defensive anyways. Just in this thread alone you do it a lot, who cares if people make up BS, are ignorant, or say something that can piss you off. It's a forum, not a political debate, and plus I'm sure you rather be driving than typing!

But anyways congrats on your background, and those mats look really interesting. Might have to get me a pair! Are they showing any signs of fading?
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:50 AM   #40
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To appreciate something, you must understand it's full potential. The reason for the humor is because your comment is so true, but yet so one sided. Apple is the best marketing and electronic monopolizing company in the world, hands down. But besides that, you are buying a closed source device that works in a very limited world (basically a super pretty device that can only do what Apple wants it to do without doing something "illegal" to it). If you, yourself are so involved with computers, then why would you want something so simple? That makes no sense. I am not a computer guru, but understand and appreciate them. Apple products are for those who don't want to get their hands dirty - people who just want to use computers. That's great for them (like my parents), but if your wife is such a programmer like you say she is, first off, that' awesome, but second, she would be horrified by Apple's sourcing and would be in a world of love if she was using Linux.

Linux is hands down the best option for a OS if you know what you are doing (which from what you tell me, you should know how to use), and for a computer itself, ASUS uses the best pieces for the price. If I wanted any $2,500 laptop, I would hands down buy a custom ASUS. Appreciating Apple products is one thing, but appreciating Steve Jobs is another. He did nothing but take the limelight from the most important person in the computer era, Dennis Ritchie. Jobs is nothing more than an entrepreneur who stole other ideas and then marketed them like a mad man. To his fortune, it worked.

Take a jab at my age, that's mature. The ironic thing is that I own multiple Apple products and love using them. Why? Because they are easy to use and make my life easier. That's it. In an everyday world that is electronically monopolized by Apple, it's just time that you are forced to give in to make your own personal life easier.

The fact of the matter is that, Apple under Steve Jobs was more about marketing then anything else. Steve never created the iPhone, a group of Apple members did, and guess what, five of them helped to find Linux and C programming. Not once did I bash you, Apple products, nor your opinion - in fact you jumped to conclusion before even understanding my comment, and I still haven't done any of that. I stated facts, that's not bashing. Don't get so defensive before understanding what someone means. More over, just don't get so defensive anyways. Just in this thread alone you do it a lot, who cares if people make up BS, are ignorant, or say something that can piss you off. It's a forum, not a political debate, and plus I'm sure you rather be driving than typing!

But anyways congrats on your background, and those mats look really interesting. Might have to get me a pair! Are they showing any signs of fading?
Anyone other than iRide113 can probably just skip reading this post, since it has just turned into a private conversation between us. It should probably have been moved offline, and I will do so, if it continues. And no, we are not fighting. Nothing to see here.

As for the mats, no signs of fading.
As for the Apple products, I suppose the best explanation would be that after years of dealing with the difficulty of Microsoft products, which despite Linux, are the weapon of choice for corporate America, it is not what I want to do when I get home.
My wife is a University trained programmer and web designer, but I ended up being the one who wrote code for 10-12 hours a day, and I am self taught. She is a Project Manager for corporate system programs. She has to understand how the systems work, in order to make sure that the work is done in a logical order, identify and anticipate potential problems with both coding and hardware, and drive a project to completion. She deals with code all day, but has not written code for 5 years. But, she feels the same way I do. She just wants something to work when she needs it.
There are plenty of people who work all day writing code, managing databases, or building networks. And when they get home, they want to play around with the same stuff at home. We were both that way too, for a while. But you reach a point where you do not want to think about it after work. I can play with some of the biggest and baddest stuff out there, short of working at the NSA, while I am in the office.
But we have reached a point that we can appreciate the simplicity of something that does what we need, without having to dig into how it works. What used to be fun now seems like work. People bash Apple for its simplicity, but making something simple to operate is actually one of the hardest things to do.
When I worked as a process engineer, developing production lines, we had a plant manager who always pushed us to make things Idiot Proof. After we traced a production issue back to a production line error, he started demanding that things had to be idiot proof. My boss jumped in and said "The problem with making things Idiot Proof is that idiots are so fvcking creative!" He had a point. Designing something that works intuitively is very hard to do. You can not imagine all of the ways that a stupid person can screw something up.
So, a device that your grandparents can operate, but people who are used to technology are able to appreciate as well is not as easy as it sounds.
At the end of the day, I don't want to install a new security patch, and update my antivirus software, just to go online, or edit a video. That is too much like work. I still tweaked my Mac Mini. I installed 16GB of memory, which was not possible, according to Apple. But I was able to do it in less than 5 mins, and it recognized it and it is utilizing it. And it only cost me $120. I also ditched the hard drive, and installed a 500gb solid state drive. There was nothing wrong with what was in there, but a SSD is much better. So, the desire to tweak is still there. And, I sure as Hell did not buy any of that from Apple. I am not a purist, but I am a fan.
We have not abandoned Microsoft, because it is not possible to do so at work. But I like coming home, and not having to look at the same thing I do at work all day. And, for the most part, I don't need it. But for people who do not get enough of it at work, there is nothing wrong with using Microsoft at home.
In the end, everyone should buy what they want. There are positives and negatives with everything. I don't try to convert anyone. If they ask, I will give an opinion, and that is as far as it goes.
Well, I certainly did not see this thread going this way!
Now, go on Bavauto.com on the device of your choice, and buy some fvcking mats!

BTW - I did not intend the comment about having to look up DOS as a bash at your age. I literally meant that you may not be aware of it. Why would you? It was difficult as Hell, and someone who never used it may have never heard of it. I simply meant that you may have to look it up, depending on your age.
I really did not mean to sound defensive or offended in my post, but it probably does read that way. Apple is just one of those things that people really hate or really love. What you see as limits, I see as things that never even existed until Apple made a platform for them.
Also, I am not a Steve Jobs worshipper, by any means. You would have to be an idiot to think he developed all that Apple offers, or that Bill Gates is responsible for all that Microsoft offers.
Both men had an initial vision that was revolutionary. They deserve credit for that. But both were lucky enough to build a core group and core philosophy around them that took them to the top. And both of them were ruthless, backstabbing bastards as well. If you study history, almost every man who rose to the top of technology and industry did the same or similar things.
It is odd to hear you complain about Apple dominating technology products. I remember when everyone bitched that Microsoft was doing the same thing, 10-15 years ago.
As far as you thinking that I seemed hostile in some of my other posts, you may be right.mif you read much of what I post, you will notice that I rarely say that anything is absolute, or state that I am certain of something. I am very careful not to do that, because I have learned the hard way that nothing is absolute, and declaring that you are certain of something is a sure way to get proven wrong. So, when I encounter that, I am quick to put it down. As I said in one of my posts above, someone telling me that they are certain of something sets off my BS meter. The world is not like that, and a person who is certain they are right is quite often ignorant, wrong, or bluffing. So, I can either stay quiet, or prove them wrong. I will admit that I don't always do that in the nicest way possible, and I should work on that. Thanks for pointing it out.
But, a lot of things on here can go a bit sideways, and it is hard not to get defensive at times. I did not take your lol well, and it showed in my response. But, you did not exactly intend it as a compliment either, so you see how it can escalate. It is a common thing with electronic communication. If you have studied sociology at all, and I recommend doing so, you will learn that the lack of voice tone and facial expressions makes this form of communication prone to misinterpretation. Combine that with being anonymous, and people can sound very different from the way they actually are. It can also lead to overinflated ego's, which is common on here. Roll all of that together, and things can turn bad quickly. It creates a hostile environment, and it is hard to avoid being sucked in.

Last edited by MJLavelle; 04-06-2013 at 03:45 AM.
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