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Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning
Talk about driveline improvements, NA tuning and DME tuning your E46 BMW here. This includes diffs, intakes, exhausts, chips, software and OBD tuning.

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Old 03-28-2012, 06:13 AM   #21
SH4DY
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Im still curious has anyone weighed or taken measurements on the various cranks? Sure less stroke, shorter throws, less vibration in the 2.8 But the s54 is still almost as undersquare as the m54 and doesnt have these issues. And i cant believe its the iron block. It has everything to do with the balance of the reciprocating mass...
I still think a girdle tying the mains together is a good idea.
When diagnosing these failures does the damage seem worse in the front cylinders?

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Old 03-28-2012, 08:09 AM   #22
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I've never seen that kind of info posted publicly. If anyone has it, it would be Adam or more likely some of the race teams. And yes, the root of the problem lies with the rotating assembly but slight differences in external forces can quickly turn a benign vibration into a harmonic resonance. What I'd really be interested to know though is just how much modification is required by the race shops who balance the entire rotating assembly (ie, how far out of balance is the stock assembly).

There are no bad ideas, only ideas that have been tried and those that have not. Experimentation is somewhat lacking because most of us can't afford to sacrifice a motor in order to deliberately push it to the breaking point. Seems to me the girdle would have the same net effect as simply using a more rigid material for the block so I'm not sure why you are so quick to dismiss the consequences of the M54s Al block. Also not sure what you're looking for when asking about damage to the front cylinders. Typically what gives up first is the oil pump. Either the nut and thus the sprocket come off or the shaft shears off if the nut has been "secured" and then oil starvation kills the engine. This is why these discussions tend to focus so much on the oil pump. There may be an isolated incident or 2 of the crank itself breaking, I think I recall mrshelley making a remark to this effect some time ago but I don't recall the circumstances.

EDIT: here's the post I was thinking of http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...4&postcount=15
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Old 03-28-2012, 05:00 PM   #23
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Is the BMW Motorsport Oil Pan Baffle Kit the broadsword solution to this harmonics problem?
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Old 03-28-2012, 05:26 PM   #24
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Is the BMW Motorsport Oil Pan Baffle Kit the broadsword solution to this harmonics problem?
In theory, the BMW Motorsport baffle + pump upgrade kit should offer a track ready solution for the harmonic problem as well as general oil starvation issues - BUT - this may still require a stock 6500 rpm red line (I don't know this for certain). Given mrshelley's experience in the post I linked above, I'm not sure this is good all the way to 7000 rpm (don't know about the particular car referenced in that post but I believe he's mentioned using the Motorsport kit before).
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Old 03-28-2012, 05:58 PM   #25
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The other problems with the BMW Motorsports kit besides the $3000 price tag, is the new "bigger" sprocket that produces two undesirable things.

1) The bigger sprocket doesn't even actually fit within the oil pan. To be clear, the way it works is you need a new oil pan spacer, between the block & pan. This little extra allows the sprocket to Not contact the bottom of the pan. So it doesn't just bolt in, modification is needed.

2) This kit should really not be considered for a street driven Bimmer, why you ask ? Because that new bigger oil pump sprocket is turning slower, resulting in very low oil pressure while sitting at a traffic light. Low enough that I'd be just as worried about low oil pressure motor failure as I would be of a stock M54 oil pump failure at high RPM. Simply said, it was designed to always be operating at mid & high RPM, not idling for any length of time.



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Old 03-28-2012, 09:51 PM   #26
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The other problems with the BMW Motorsports kit besides the $3000 price tag, is the new "bigger" sprocket that produces two undesirable things.

1) The bigger sprocket doesn't even actually fit within the oil pan. To be clear, the way it works is you need a new oil pan spacer, between the block & pan. This little extra allows the sprocket to Not contact the bottom of the pan. So it doesn't just bolt in, modification is needed.

2) This kit should really not be considered for a street driven Bimmer, why you ask ? Because that new bigger oil pump sprocket is turning slower, resulting in very low oil pressure while sitting at a traffic light. Low enough that I'd be just as worried about low oil pressure motor failure as I would be of a stock M54 oil pump failure at high RPM. Simply said, it was designed to always be operating at mid & high RPM, not idling for any length of time.



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very informative post thanks rob
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:46 PM   #27
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Interesting replies regarding the Motorsport solution many thanks . If I recall correctly MrShelley posted some track day vids and he was revving to around 7K...I am assuming he was using the Motorsport solution.

I'm curious about issues resulting from street use though.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:55 PM   #28
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Interesting replies regarding the Motorsport solution many thanks . If I recall correctly MrShelley posted some track day vids and he was revving to around 7K...I am assuming he was using the Motorsport solution.

I'm curious about issues resulting from street use though.

I can assure you I would've bought the BMW Motorsport kit for my new build if those issues weren't a problem, specifically #2. My motor builder strongly advised against it for the street. He would know, he only builds M54B30 motors, mostly for the Grand Am series.


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Nitrous is a little trickier than boost, but it's not the spray that kills motors, it's STUPIDITY!!
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:04 PM   #29
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All good Rob I wasn't doubting you at all...you're a very helpful member I was unaware of potential low oil pressure issues from using it for the street...I have been strongly considering using it in my spare B30 engine although my car is still street driven...I guess I will continue my search for potential fixes.
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:27 PM   #30
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That must have come off poorly, I did not mean for it to.

Just trying to help out.


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Nitrous is a little trickier than boost, but it's not the spray that kills motors, it's STUPIDITY!!
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Old 03-29-2012, 06:12 AM   #31
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Txzhp- i think im having such a hard time believing the problem lies mostly in the block composition because of the multitude of Al blocks out there that can support high rpms. It is true though that most of the motors i have in mind are either 4 or 8 cyl...

Rob- any chance you can ask your builder about the weight of the rotating assembly of the m54 vs s54? Or any differences in the cranks?

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Old 03-29-2012, 08:25 AM   #32
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Txzhp- i think im having such a hard time believing the problem lies mostly in the block composition because of the multitude of Al blocks out there that can support high rpms. It is true though that most of the motors i have in mind are either 4 or 8 cyl...
Never said the problem lies mostly in the block composition. Once again, you can't point a finger at a single element of the design. The use of aluminum isn't the root of the problem but it is a contributing factor. The same crank doesn't have anywhere near as big of a problem when used in iron blocks and the Al block isn't problematic when used with the 2.5 or 2.8 cranks. It's the very specific combination of crank and block in the m54b30 that allows the inevitable vibrations that exist in all rotating assemblies to grow in amplitude to destructive levels (and then the problem reveals the weak design of the oil pump shaft). If the M54 weren't intended to be a lower rpm daily street driven motor, I'm quite sure BMW could have avoided the harmonic resonance issue while still using an Al block and without modifying the crank. But since the problem only manifests under extended high rpm usage, it probably wasn't something they were overly concerned about. Ultimately, the solution revolves around manipulating the vibration frequencies experienced during operation - either by damping them or shifting them to frequencies which don't align with the natural frequency of the crank or changing the natural frequency of the crank.
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:13 AM   #33
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Never said the problem lies mostly in the block composition. Once again, you can't point a finger at a single element of the design. The use of aluminum isn't the root of the problem but it is a contributing factor. The same crank doesn't have anywhere near as big of a problem when used in iron blocks and the Al block isn't problematic when used with the 2.5 or 2.8 cranks. It's the very specific combination of crank and block in the m54b30 that allows the inevitable vibrations that exist in all rotating assemblies to grow in amplitude to destructive levels (and then the problem reveals the weak design of the oil pump shaft). If the M54 weren't intended to be a lower rpm daily street driven motor, I'm quite sure BMW could have avoided the harmonic resonance issue while still using an Al block and without modifying the crank. But since the problem only manifests under extended high rpm usage, it probably wasn't something they were overly concerned about. Ultimately, the solution revolves around manipulating the vibration frequencies experienced during operation - either by damping them or shifting them to frequencies which don't align with the natural frequency of the crank or changing the natural frequency of the crank.

Very well said, I'm quite glad you contribute.



Thanks,
Rob.
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Old 03-31-2012, 09:05 AM   #34
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I haven't seen too many issues from street driving except for overheating. As far as track driving, you will need to do some things to the motor once you start getting faster...as I have found out.

IIRC, VAC's kit used to be a new bolt on sprocket but now it seems they advertise it as a press on solution. How does that compare to Vaio23423987498's solution? What's involved in installing the S54 chain tensioner?

So if I do oil pump, chain tensioner, and damper upgrades, can I do some software mods and increase my redline? If so, how high?
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Old 03-31-2012, 09:20 AM   #35
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So if I do oil pump, chain tensioner, and damper upgrades, can I do some software mods and increase my redline? If so, how high?
In theory, if we were 100% confident that the listed mods completely eliminate the harmonic issues (and I'm not), then you would still be capped around 7200-7300 rpm due to the hydraulic lifters (to avoid valve float and piston/valve contact). Given that you're already rebuilding a failed engine, you probably don't want to be the guinea pig pushing the limits of engine speed. Personally, I wouldn't go any higher than about 6800 - 7000 rpm and some people may feel that's still pushing the limits of the harmonic issues even with an upgraded pump and damper.
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Old 03-31-2012, 10:25 AM   #36
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In theory, if we were 100% confident that the listed mods completely eliminate the harmonic issues (and I'm not), then you would still be capped around 7200-7300 rpm due to the hydraulic lifters (to avoid valve float and piston/valve contact). Given that you're already rebuilding a failed engine, you probably don't want to be the guinea pig pushing the limits of engine speed. Personally, I wouldn't go any higher than about 6800 - 7000 rpm and some people may feel that's still pushing the limits of the harmonic issues even with an upgraded pump and damper.
My right foot says I want to explore the limits. Unfortunately, my wallet disagrees.

I was just curious more than anything. Never heard of the S54 chain tensioner upgrade...have to talk to my shop about that. Is this the part?

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/...ch%20%20%20%20

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Old 03-31-2012, 11:06 AM   #37
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That's the part. It's a very straightforward swap although you do need just the right socket as it can be a bit tricky to reach around the A/C lines.
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Old 03-31-2012, 12:50 PM   #38
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Very good information in this thread, glad we have knowledgeable people on board.

Great info on S54 tensioner
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Old 07-28-2012, 10:30 AM   #39
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Bump for some advice for my e34... I do not have an ATI damper yet, nor an upgraded oil pump, however I will not be tracking the car without those whatsoever. My question is, for DD and spirited drives, is the ATI necessary? I wouldn't hold the revs at any higher than say 5000rpm, rev up and shift. What rpm is an acceptable shift point? Thanks for any advice... after completely rebuilding the motor, I do not want to take any chances.
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Old 07-28-2012, 08:26 PM   #40
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Bump for some advice for my e34... I do not have an ATI damper yet, nor an upgraded oil pump, however I will not be tracking the car without those whatsoever. My question is, for DD and spirited drives, is the ATI necessary? I wouldn't hold the revs at any higher than say 5000rpm, rev up and shift. What rpm is an acceptable shift point? Thanks for any advice... after completely rebuilding the motor, I do not want to take any chances.
perfectly fine for street driving unless your ocd like me
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