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Old 04-03-2012, 01:37 PM   #41
Sound Performance
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Originally Posted by nickr519 View Post
I was more curious about the fact that the th400 saps 20 or so percent MORE than an manual which already saps some odd 15%. Seems crazy. I''m curious about what the SP guy said, the high stall converter increasing the losses? why is that?
Chassis power losses depend on many things but it is assured that there are losses through the drivetrain and the tire patches themselves. Good manual transmission chassis setups might use over 60Hp to get to the drive tires at a given speed and temperature (of the oil in the trans and drive axle(s). Automatic transmissions with drag race type high stall converters might lose over 100 Hp at the same data point. It is not sensible to plan on some set percentage as a loss in the drivetrain even though some chassis dyno manufacturers do that anyway. It does make the arithmetic easier but it does not make it correct. There are many ways to get a good estimate of the power losses but it is best to have good data from an engine test and then find out what is left at the drive tire(s). The power losses in the chassis are not the same across the board. The power losses vary with both speed and temperature of the lubrication fluids as well as the stall speed of the converter.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:45 PM   #42
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ARE you sure this is through a auto?




I bet the steed speed flows better then the cast one! pull the motor and swap them!!!
I dont think its been shown either way. I was always curious what major differences in each cylinder flow and EGT took place with the cast manifold. IMO, substituting the cast manifold would gain nothing. To date I know of no side by side comparisons.

Equal length tubular headders where all the egt'S ARE more even and flow is greatly increased is win win win. More power and EASIER on the entire FI system

If HPF is going to fit a tubular manifold like they say, then I would be surprised if they did not add that to their catalog. Expect any tubular system to be astronomical in price, but with real world returns..especially .when paired with new intake pipe!


HPF has admitted the need for better exhaust. They need to redesign their air intake and filter now for stage 3 and above. Some might say for stage 2.5 and above. There is a LOT of HP being choked out by inadequate breathing. I think everyone agrees on this. The question is now:"What is the best way of improving things?"
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:48 PM   #43
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I can tell you that our drag car, dynoed 1044@42psi through a 5 speed. Threw in the Auto with a high stall converter and it made 812whp@42psi..... This is on a 4 cylinder, so comparing boost levels isn't quite the same.

If it means anything, the car runs 8.30's@167....
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:37 PM   #44
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Nice job guys, I made 940whp at 29psi (SAE) with big old drag tires on with pretty conservative tuning. I actually run more boost on the street.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:38 PM   #45
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Nice job guys, I made 940whp at 29psi (SAE) with big old drag tires on with pretty conservative tuning. I actually run more boost on the street.
Thanks Vik.
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:28 PM   #46
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I find it mildly amusing that the main person questioning the validity of the number "1000" (because that number was uncorrected for weather) has no problems setting drag records in negative DA'a
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:07 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdave View Post
I dont think its been shown either way. I was always curious what major differences in each cylinder flow and EGT took place with the cast manifold. IMO, substituting the cast manifold would gain nothing. To date I know of no side by side comparisons.

Equal length tubular headders where all the egt'S ARE more even and flow is greatly increased is win win win. More power and EASIER on the entire FI system

If HPF is going to fit a tubular manifold like they say, then I would be surprised if they did not add that to their catalog. Expect any tubular system to be astronomical in price, but with real world returns..especially .when paired with new intake pipe!


HPF has admitted the need for better exhaust. They need to redesign their air intake and filter now for stage 3 and above. Some might say for stage 2.5 and above. There is a LOT of HP being choked out by inadequate breathing. I think everyone agrees on this. The question is now:"What is the best way of improving things?"
little do people know, HPF has had a tubular Mani for years.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:21 PM   #48
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Those 1000HP graphs will be closer to mid 800s through a TH400.. BUT on the same token if setup properly with the right stall and gearing the car should be significantly faster then it was on the 6speed.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:52 PM   #49
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little do people know, HPF has had a tubular Mani for years.
theres a pic of it floating around on this forum somewhere

edit: found it


or dis 1
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:55 PM   #50
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I find it mildly amusing that the main person questioning the validity of the number "1000" (because that number was uncorrected for weather) has no problems setting drag records in negative DA'a
i find it mildly amusing that that same person has no problems blowing motors..........
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:07 PM   #51
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theres a pic of it floating around on this forum somewhere

edit: found it


or dis 1

I remember reading that this very early mani was pulled from the line due to under performance. They are rare as hens teeth. Were they made in house at HPF? I doubt it.

Does anyone know the real story on this? By its very design it should have performed quite well I would have thought. Its hard to tell from a picture. Perhaps the sections were all too small.

There are a few outfits that offer tubular manis on a custom basis. I know SAAD is one. I am not sure about SP. They were talking about it I know.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:24 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Bdave View Post
I remember reading that this very early mani was pulled from the line due to under performance. They are rare as hens teeth. Were they made in house at HPF? I doubt it.

Does anyone know the real story on this? By its very design it should have performed quite well I would have thought. Its hard to tell from a picture. Perhaps the sections were all too small.

There are a few outfits that offer tubular manis on a custom basis. I know SAAD is one. I am not sure about SP. They were talking about it I know.
The manifold made great power actually. Far from under performing.

I would venture out and say that Manifold cost more, which runs the production cost up. And being a HAND made item it may not always be 100% the same every time. And knowing how prefect all the HPF kits need to be, they prob didnt go with them for that reason...


Maybe Chris can Chime in, but thats my guess
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:57 PM   #53
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The manifold made great power actually. Far from under performing.

I would venture out and say that Manifold cost more, which runs the production cost up. And being a HAND made item it may not always be 100% the same every time. And knowing how prefect all the HPF kits need to be, they prob didnt go with them for that reason...


Maybe Chris can Chime in, but thats my guess
I'm sure it ha more to do with cost than perfection. However it is pretty sexy
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:39 AM   #54
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I'm sure it ha more to do with cost than perfection. However it is pretty sexy
I think the exhaust manifolds have been getting progressively worse, not better.
Like no one would notice?? I cant believe that tubular mani was pulled.
Cracking perhaps? That is one downside of them. Very prone to cracking.

So, the Steed did do its job as far as reliability...I have only heard of one cracked Steed, ever.

Does anyone know if there is even a single HPF tubular mani on the road now? How rare were they?

This isnt like ancient Egyptian history, unearthing rare and revered artifacts. Well, maybe it is.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:04 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Bdave View Post
I remember reading that this very early mani was pulled from the line due to under performance. They are rare as hens teeth. Were they made in house at HPF? I doubt it.

Does anyone know the real story on this? By its very design it should have performed quite well I would have thought. Its hard to tell from a picture. Perhaps the sections were all too small.

There are a few outfits that offer tubular manis on a custom basis. I know SAAD is one. I am not sure about SP. They were talking about it I know.
This manifold was discontinued because it made it nearly impossible to control boost. That's why the new manifold design directed all the airflow towards the wastegate outlet. The other main problem with it was that the head flange would warp over time and we kept having to pull it off and deck it.

Chris.

Last edited by HPF Chris; 04-04-2012 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:22 PM   #56
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This manifold was discontinued because it made it nearly impossible to control boost. That's why the new manifold design directed all the airflow towards the wastegate outlet. The other main problem with it was that the head flange would warp over time and we kept having to pull it off and deck it.

Chris.
Ah, mystery solved. Thanks Chris. So what are your plans for the NEW tubular exhaust. I know you just mentioned it.

I/we forget there is more than just flow at stake. You have boost and waste gate issues etc that all are part of the turbo exhaust design. There is never a perfect solution, just good compromises.

These tubular systems are really tricky. Since there are not a whole lot of them around we decided to heavily PORT a cut apart and re welded Steed Mani. I dont have the flow numbers yet. The cost was right at 1100 so there better be significant improvement or I will be upset. Succeed or fail, I think it was worth a try. The porter was supposed to be quite good and promised significant improvements. especially since he had such perfect access to a split mani. It was all 100% re coated in ceramic.

We chose the Steed as the starting point since it was what we had and it also had a lot more opportunity to port over the newer log mani My techs also did something with the waste gate...not sure.
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:27 PM   #57
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I had forgotten about My Tran's earlier Stage 4. We made slightly more power with his car at 1022rwhp. Lutz Performance now owns this M3. They've been running one of our "sleeved" block built motors since 5/21/2009.

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Old 04-18-2012, 08:12 AM   #58
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I had forgotten about My Tran's earlier Stage 4. We made slightly more power with his car at 1022rwhp. Lutz Performance now owns this M3. They've been running one of our "sleeved" block built motors since 5/21/2009.

Chris.

The 1022whp was on the old built, non sleeved 3.2l. Here's the dyno thread from 5/21/09: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=676754

And that built 3.2, non sleeved motor, was the one that self imploded racing the Mustang. Here's the thread: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=789944 dated 9/5/10 and here he just received the car with the built motor, now sleeved: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=815781 dated 1/10/11

We got the car shortly after My got it back with the built sleeved motor and it hasn't been driven outside of straight pump gas to my knowledge since it left you guys after the motor repair/upgrade. I can't seem to find the dyno numbers or thread from the built sleeved motor, perhaps you have that dyno graph Chris?
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:30 PM   #59
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The 1022whp was on the old built, non sleeved 3.2l. Here's the dyno thread from 5/21/09: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=676754

And that built 3.2, non sleeved motor, was the one that self imploded racing the Mustang. Here's the thread: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=789944 dated 9/5/10 and here he just received the car with the built motor, now sleeved: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=815781 dated 1/10/11

We got the car shortly after My got it back with the built sleeved motor and it hasn't been driven outside of straight pump gas to my knowledge since it left you guys after the motor repair/upgrade. I can't seem to find the dyno numbers or thread from the built sleeved motor, perhaps you have that dyno graph Chris?
Nonsense Shawn! That motor was built in 1973 and has well over a million miles on it. Chris has 32 thousand customers on the sleeved blocks, not one has ever had a problem. Not even me.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:31 PM   #60
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The 1022whp was on the old built, non sleeved 3.2l. Here's the dyno thread from 5/21/09: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=676754

And that built 3.2, non sleeved motor, was the one that self imploded racing the Mustang. Here's the thread: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=789944 dated 9/5/10 and here he just received the car with the built motor, now sleeved: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=815781 dated 1/10/11

We got the car shortly after My got it back with the built sleeved motor and it hasn't been driven outside of straight pump gas to my knowledge since it left you guys after the motor repair/upgrade. I can't seem to find the dyno numbers or thread from the built sleeved motor, perhaps you have that dyno graph Chris?
You are correct. The 1022rwhp was on the "non" sleeved block. We installed the sleeved block in his car on 1/4/2011.

Chris.
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