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Old 05-14-2012, 11:48 PM   #221
fatboyx9
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Who say's my decisions were snap decisions? i do a little research before trying anything. Like i said, i've ran this lower psi cap for a year now, who said anything about ignorance?
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Old 05-14-2012, 11:53 PM   #222
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I guess the engineers know's best, better not try to improve on anything.
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Old 05-14-2012, 11:54 PM   #223
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Who say's my decisions were snap decisions? i do a little research before trying anything. Like i said, i've ran this lower psi cap for a year now, who said anything about ignorance?
You could also probably drive around with anti-seize on your spark plugs and on your wheel bolts. Doesn't mean it's ideal. Bottom line is the system was designed to work within a specified temperature range. By changing caps, you're effing with that. You don't know what long-term damage you're doing to your car, nor do you know what running situations you've just ruled your car out of being in by simply changing a cap.

It's your car, your call, but totally unnecessary. Not sure what benefits you think you're receiving.









Here's what one engineer has to say about tweaking in general: (not my words)

Every vehicle manufacturer has huge engineering staffs at their disposal. Compared to you and I or aftermarket tuners, these real engineers:

1.) Have complete access to every piece of secret insider data about what's going on inside the vehicle. They have supercomputer plots of airflow. They know about the micro differential temperature variations across the hood. They know what's going on inside a combustion chamber simulated out to the individual molecular level. When they do a simulation they have all the CAD data for accuracy. We don't.

2.) They are real engineers with degrees with the deep technical backgrounds required to understand what's really going on, as opposed to hobbyists and tuners who work by fuzzy feelings. It's tough to explain if you're not a degreed engineer. I do have an engineering degree, and all that calculus really lets you get inside what's going on.

3.)They get paid to work all day and night. That's all they do.

4.) They have huge budgets for research, since what they do is spread out among the many thousands of production vehicles for even the most exclusive model.

5.) In addition to the ubiquitous dynamometers, they also have wind tunnels and flow and combustion analyzers to know what happened and why.

Any tuner can improve on one or two aspects of anything. Most tuners have dynos, some might have wind tunnels. None of them have all the data BMW has, or it's research budget. The whole point of a BMW is to do everything well over all conditions. That's why it makes no sense to waste time trying to outsmart BMWs engineers at their own game. Even if you had a supercomputer, wind tunnel and research engines loaded with probes you still don't have the base data from which to start calculating.

Back in the 1950s cars were so primitive and under stressed that it was easy and safe to hotrod them.

In the 2000s every car is running as well as it can. It already has every reasonable tweak incorporated as part of its very soul. Unless you're doing a ground-up complete rebuild, there is nothing you can bolt on to make an overall better car. You may be able to trade off one aspect for another with something serious like adding a blower, but BMW knows better than anyone how to make their cars as good at as many things as possible all at the same time. Add a blower and you'll probably pop your U-joints a lot faster than stock, for instance.

Tweaks are for people who enjoy tweaking for its own sake. I don't bother with them.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:44 AM   #224
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Mango has an EXTREMELY good point back there about the pressure... If anything I would want a cap that held MORE pressure. Why the hell would you want less pressure!? The pressure increases the boiling point. If you changed the pressure in the system that severely whilst running a stock thermostat, everything is totally out of balance...
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Old 05-15-2012, 05:11 AM   #225
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I don't understand the obsession or desire to tinker with systems put into place by actual engineers. BMW engineers at that. Like Stinger said, a well-maintained cooling system means you'll never have a problem.

Blocked out, have you actually measured your coolant temps while driving? I'd suspect a lower pressure cap would lower the boiling point of your water/coolant and thus cause cavitation which would decrease efficiency and run a higher risk of an overheat. Since our gauges are buffered, you could be well near overheating and not even know it.

Personally, I see no need to tinker with the caps. The resources BMW has on all design specification and internal data is well beyond any information we'd ever have.
If I remember correctly, my old 330 was usually at 95C - would sometimes get to 101-102 if I drove particularly hard. A 1-bar cap should allow the boiling point to stay sufficiently high to not have to worry about the coolant boiling under normal operation... I cannot say what the effect would be on any other aspect.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:29 PM   #226
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i'm not running a 1 bar cap. I have no doubt the engineers have alot more information than i. With all the information posted here i may return my OEM cap. I appreciate all the information Mango without the critism. I still might stick with the 1.4 bar on one of my bimmers just to see the results. Sometimes i ponder too much. I hope that i didn't offend anyone on here especially Stringer.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:35 PM   #227
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Ditto, I'm sticking with my 2 bar cap. The new, improved expansion tank should have addressed the exploding/hairline crack issue.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:53 PM   #228
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i'm not running a 1 bar cap. I have no doubt the engineers have alot more information than i. With all the information posted here i may return my OEM cap. I appreciate all the information Mango without the critism. I still might stick with the 1.4 bar on one of my bimmers just to see the results. Sometimes i ponder too much. I hope that i didn't offend anyone on here especially Stringer.
No offense whatsoever! We're all here to have fun and knock it around with each other. Keeps life entertaining and keeps us thinking when ideas are challenged.
Let me know if I can ever help you.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:56 PM   #229
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Thanks for undersatnding Stinger. So the issues with the expansion tanks have been solved?
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:29 PM   #230
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I don't understand the obsession or desire to tinker with systems put into place by actual engineers. BMW engineers at that. Like Stinger said, a well-maintained cooling system means you'll never have a problem.

Blocked out, have you actually measured your coolant temps while driving? I'd suspect a lower pressure cap would lower the boiling point of your water/coolant and thus cause cavitation which would decrease efficiency and run a higher risk of an overheat. Since our gauges are buffered, you could be well near overheating and not even know it.

Personally, I see no need to tinker with the caps. The resources BMW has on all design specification and internal data is well beyond any information we'd ever have.
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...=#post14393488

I havent recorded while Im driving but I'd like to get that as well. As far as cooling system goes on my car , only alterations are the 1.4 bar cap and a Stewart water pump. I've been trying to lower the pressure inside my cooling system , because it always bothered me and I think I'm doing a good job . The lowered pressure is not enough to raze a panic about high boil point. And I have a high flow pump which pumps 20% more water and we all know that more flow equals less pressure ! So at this point I dont know how much I've lowered the pressure inside ( cap plus the pump ) but I like it this way.

Its not an obsession, I just answer other's questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by E46Mango View Post
Here's what one engineer has to say about tweaking in general: (not my words)

Every vehicle manufacturer has huge engineering staffs at their disposal. Compared to you and I or aftermarket tuners, these real engineers:

1.) Have complete access to every piece of secret insider data about what's going on inside the vehicle. They have supercomputer plots of airflow. They know about the micro differential temperature variations across the hood. They know what's going on inside a combustion chamber simulated out to the individual molecular level. When they do a simulation they have all the CAD data for accuracy. We don't.

2.) They are real engineers with degrees with the deep technical backgrounds required to understand what's really going on, as opposed to hobbyists and tuners who work by fuzzy feelings. It's tough to explain if you're not a degreed engineer. I do have an engineering degree, and all that calculus really lets you get inside what's going on.

3.)They get paid to work all day and night. That's all they do.

4.) They have huge budgets for research, since what they do is spread out among the many thousands of production vehicles for even the most exclusive model.

5.) In addition to the ubiquitous dynamometers, they also have wind tunnels and flow and combustion analyzers to know what happened and why.

.
^ And this is exactly why BMWs are considered the most unreliable cars ever made

Come on, dont be silly , we all know that there is SOOOOOO much room for improvement in our cars becaseu apparently the BMW engineers couldnt design a proper rear subfloor for over 20 years E36 AND E46 ! They have huge budgets for research and this is why our generation of cars is called THE most unreliable BMW and the one with the most "common" problems.

Come on, dont kid yourself. I know that BMW engineers did a hell of a great job in making this car as a whole , but there are SOOO many parts in this car that need a redesign and a rethink
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:38 PM   #231
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Well said Blocked Out
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:05 PM   #232
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And I have a high flow pump which pumps 20% more water and we all know that more flow equals less pressure ! So at this point I dont know how much I've lowered the pressure inside ( cap plus the pump ) but I like it this way.

Its not an obsession
There is logic to dictate that the Stewart pump with its 20% increase in flow does nothing to lower pressure. Pressure in a closed container is strictly a function of temperature, and that is regulated by our thermostat.
The increased flow would provide for more cooling capacity at the extreme (your engine rarely gets to this point), but if the pump pushes more water thru the system, the themostat will compensate by closing off flow to the radiator, thereby cooling the system less. (holding the temperature constant, and therefore the pressure constant)
Remember the thermostat does all it can to hold the temperature at a fixed point, with feedback from the ECM, but none from the pump.
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:50 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Blocked Out View Post
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...=#post14393488

I havent recorded while Im driving but I'd like to get that as well. As far as cooling system goes on my car , only alterations are the 1.4 bar cap and a Stewart water pump. I've been trying to lower the pressure inside my cooling system , because it always bothered me and I think I'm doing a good job . The lowered pressure is not enough to raze a panic about high boil point. And I have a high flow pump which pumps 20% more water and we all know that more flow equals less pressure ! So at this point I dont know how much I've lowered the pressure inside ( cap plus the pump ) but I like it this way.

Its not an obsession, I just answer other's questions



^ And this is exactly why BMWs are considered the most unreliable cars ever made

Come on, dont be silly , we all know that there is SOOOOOO much room for improvement in our cars becaseu apparently the BMW engineers couldnt design a proper rear subfloor for over 20 years E36 AND E46 ! They have huge budgets for research and this is why our generation of cars is called THE most unreliable BMW and the one with the most "common" problems.

Come on, dont kid yourself. I know that BMW engineers did a hell of a great job in making this car as a whole , but there are SOOO many parts in this car that need a redesign and a rethink
I wasn't talking about you, buddy, when I said obsession. Just tinkerers in general. I like to tinker as much as the next guy, but I know when I'm jumping into territory I shouldn't. That territory usually includes anything vital to the longevity or reliability of the car. Altering systems which are directly responsible for the wellbeing of the vehicle or my safety are a no-no in my opinion.

BMW had to walk a fine line between performance and durability/longevity when they design any 3-Series. The 3-Series has been a reigning champ ever since its debut and is always the life of the party in the performance sedan category. It invented the category and continues to define it to this day.

Part of that reason is the 3-Series ability to perform. Its handling and chassis dynamics, which for the most part can be attributed to both overall weight and balance. It's clear the goal was to make the car as light as possible (increased use of aluminums and lightweight/strong plastics) and to fine-tune overall weight distribution, which as you know is 50/50.

I think you can see what I'm getting at here.

The 323/328 are the primary cars to fail at the subframe mounting locations. Obviously we all know BMW revised the design for the 325/330 so they greatly reduced the chance of failure there.

Most unreliable car? Hardly. I've said on another forum post, I've personally owned six BMWs, racked up 200,000 miles, total of 942,000 miles on all six cars without a SINGLE breakdown or even a check engine light. By far the most reliable cars I've owned. Before these I had all Japanese cars, half of them brand new and those left me stranded.

I realize my experience doesn't necessarily prove anything, but BMWs are extremely reliable when you maintain them. Just as any car. German cars in general tend to be higher-maintenance and out of all the german cars, BMW has earned a solid reputation for reliability. This is commonly known in the automotive world. Forget what you hear on forums people complaining of no-starts, etc. This is not 'data' and should not be considered when talking about reliability. The reason for forums is for people to post when they have a problem. No problems? Most people are quiet.

And finally, these are BMWs. They perform. They're designed to do everything so well. They're quiet, comfortable, refined, great looking, high quality, dynamic handling, superb safety, excellent efficiency. All reasons the 3-Series is an icon. At the end of the day, if you want complete trouble-free driving, there's always a shiny new Toyota Corolla waiting for you. One cannot complain about the maintenance regimen required to run a BMW. As with anything, you get what you pay for.

At the end of the day, you'll run the lower pressure cap and risk unknown consequences and STILL have to rebuild/refresh the cooling system at 80k and I will run the proper cap and still be held to the same rebuild/refresh at the same 80k--only I will have no doubts as to the consequences of running the proper cap.
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Old 05-16-2012, 01:51 PM   #234
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~500 miles since I did my cooling system, temperature is dead-center and the coolant hasn't dropped since I topped it off the first week. Looks like I'm in the clear for a long time
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Old 05-16-2012, 05:46 PM   #235
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~500 miles since I did my cooling system, temperature is dead-center and the coolant hasn't dropped since I topped it off the first week. Looks like I'm in the clear for a long time
Awesome, Zell. Glad to hear you replaced the entire cooling system. Now you won't have to post any threads on cooling failures. Glad that radiator is still holding strong despite modification. Still curious how/why that happened. Perhaps we'll never know!
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Old 05-16-2012, 09:24 PM   #236
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I wasn't talking about you, buddy, when I said obsession. Just tinkerers in general. I like to tinker as much as the next guy, but I know when I'm jumping into territory I shouldn't. That territory usually includes anything vital to the longevity or reliability of the car. Altering systems which are directly responsible for the wellbeing of the vehicle or my safety are a no-no in my opinion.

BMW had to walk a fine line between performance and durability/longevity when they design any 3-Series. The 3-Series has been a reigning champ ever since its debut and is always the life of the party in the performance sedan category. It invented the category and continues to define it to this day.

Part of that reason is the 3-Series ability to perform. Its handling and chassis dynamics, which for the most part can be attributed to both overall weight and balance. It's clear the goal was to make the car as light as possible (increased use of aluminums and lightweight/strong plastics) and to fine-tune overall weight distribution, which as you know is 50/50.

I think you can see what I'm getting at here.

The 323/328 are the primary cars to fail at the subframe mounting locations. Obviously we all know BMW revised the design for the 325/330 so they greatly reduced the chance of failure there.

Most unreliable car? Hardly. I've said on another forum post, I've personally owned six BMWs, racked up 200,000 miles, total of 942,000 miles on all six cars without a SINGLE breakdown or even a check engine light. By far the most reliable cars I've owned. Before these I had all Japanese cars, half of them brand new and those left me stranded.

I realize my experience doesn't necessarily prove anything, but BMWs are extremely reliable when you maintain them. Just as any car. German cars in general tend to be higher-maintenance and out of all the german cars, BMW has earned a solid reputation for reliability. This is commonly known in the automotive world. Forget what you hear on forums people complaining of no-starts, etc. This is not 'data' and should not be considered when talking about reliability. The reason for forums is for people to post when they have a problem. No problems? Most people are quiet.

And finally, these are BMWs. They perform. They're designed to do everything so well. They're quiet, comfortable, refined, great looking, high quality, dynamic handling, superb safety, excellent efficiency. All reasons the 3-Series is an icon. At the end of the day, if you want complete trouble-free driving, there's always a shiny new Toyota Corolla waiting for you. One cannot complain about the maintenance regimen required to run a BMW. As with anything, you get what you pay for.

At the end of the day, you'll run the lower pressure cap and risk unknown consequences and STILL have to rebuild/refresh the cooling system at 80k and I will run the proper cap and still be held to the same rebuild/refresh at the same 80k--only I will have no doubts as to the consequences of running the proper cap.
Mango, what are you talking about ? You're getting WAY out of topic here, there is no need for history lessons.

You topped me on cars, Im only on my 3rd BMW but that has nothing to do with any of this. In fact, I think you dont fully understand the definition of reliability. BMWs are the most unreliable cars , even BMW themself admit that they dont put much effort in making the car reliable, instead they focus on other aspects of the car and that why they performs so well . I have no doubts that in your hands your BMWs were in good shape BUT you must understand that definition of the word Reliability doesnt evolve working on the car every couple thousands miles and replacing things for the second or third time on a car thats only 100k miles , you guys all know what parts Im talking about.

If you keep replacing parts every week then you can make any car "reliable" but thats not what it actually is .

That statement I underlined , seriously ? Why do you have aftermarket parts on your car then? Do you not compromise the vital parts of the car?
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Old 05-16-2012, 09:45 PM   #237
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Mango, what are you talking about ? You're getting WAY out of topic here, there is no need for history lessons.

You topped me on cars, Im only on my 3rd BMW but that has nothing to do with any of this. In fact, I think you dont fully understand the definition of reliability. BMWs are the most unreliable cars , even BMW themself admit that they dont put much effort in making the car reliable, instead they focus on other aspects of the car and that why they performs so well . I have no doubts that in your hands your BMWs were in good shape BUT you must understand that definition of the word Reliability doesnt evolve working on the car every couple thousands miles and replacing things for the second or third time on a car thats only 100k miles , you guys all know what parts Im talking about.

If you keep replacing parts every week then you can make any car "reliable" but thats not what it actually is .

That statement I underlined , seriously ? Why do you have aftermarket parts on your car then? Do you not compromise the vital parts of the car?
How exactly is using Bilstein/H&Rs sacrificing my safety or well-being? This is not about the dangers of using aftermarket parts, this is about using parts NOT SPEC'D/DESIGNED for your car, such as an E30 expansion tank cap!

And you do know Bilstein is an OEM supplier to Mercedes for one, right? They're not some fly-by-night eBay company. They're used in Spec E30 race cars and hell.. little tip (I think it may be even somewhat of a secret, but BMW uses specially designed KW coilovers in their race cars--you didn't hear that from me)

Bottom line is you don't know the long-term effects using the wrong cap will yield. I suggest you take your car down here to Death Valley and see what happens. It's obvious that these cars have to work in a wide range of conditions.

Not sure how you could argue against using the parts that were spec'd and designed for your car.

And, Blocked, I respect your knowledge about cars (especially on camshaft removal DIYs) but essentially what you're promoting here is using E30 parts on the E46. It may work for you, but not everyone lives where you live or sees the conditions that you see. I'd at least put a disclaimer at the end of your recommendation stating that this may not work for everybody. You do not want to be held liable in any way for damages resulting from your recommendation.
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Old 05-16-2012, 09:57 PM   #238
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How exactly is using Bilstein/H&Rs sacrificing my safety or well-being? This is not about the dangers of using aftermarket parts, this is about using parts NOT SPEC'D/DESIGNED for your car, such as an E30 expansion tank cap!

And you do know Bilstein is an OEM supplier to Mercedes for one, right? They're not some fly-by-night eBay company. They're used in Spec E30 race cars and hell.. little tip (I think it may be even somewhat of a secret, but BMW uses specially designed KW coilovers in their race cars--you didn't hear that from me)

Bottom line is you don't know the long-term effects using the wrong cap will yield. I suggest you take your car down here to Death Valley and see what happens. It's obvious that these cars have to work in a wide range of conditions.

Not sure how you could argue against using the parts that were spec'd and designed for your car.
I would argue that a spring and shock that were not developed together can compromise safet and/or longevity. It may not, but you'd be venturing into the unknown. Even with coilovers, I would imagine none of the products are given the same r&d budget as what BMW has.

I think Blocked Out's point is even though we don't have access to all the data BMW has, it's not impossible to make improvements; you demonstrated a similar notion by using nonstandard suspension. I would certainly argue that suspension is a lot more complicated than the cooling system
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:05 PM   #239
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I would argue that a spring and shock that were not developed together can compromise safet and/or longevity. It may not, but you'd be venturing into the unknown. Even with coilovers, I would imagine none of the products are given the same r&d budget as what BMW has.

I think Blocked Out's point is even though we don't have access to all the data BMW has, it's not impossible to make improvements; you demonstrated a similar notion by using nonstandard suspension. I would certainly argue that suspension is a lot more complicated than the cooling system
A spring and shock doesn't have to be designed together in order to ensure safety. At that level, you're simply talking ride chararteristics.

When have you heard about a broken H&R spring or broken Bilstein strut? Both parts in and of themselves are high quality. No reasonable person would argue that. And like I said, Bilstein is an OEM supplier. Possibly to BMW? I don't know. Mercedes is good enough for me.

Nobody is saying that stock is the magic part. We all know many Genuine BMW parts suck. You gotta give me more credit than that.

My point is, fuzzy feelings you get by using the wrong parts on your car isn't good enough (in my book anyway) to qualify that "upgrade" as an improvement.

At the end of the day, my stock cap will bring me to 80k miles and Blocked's stock cap MIGHT. We live in two completely different climates, by the way. No way I'm effing with my cooling system by putting the wrong cap on it when it can get up to 125 degrees where I live in the summer.

Would you use a lower pressure cap on your E46 M3?
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:21 PM   #240
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How exactly is using Bilstein/H&Rs sacrificing my safety or well-being? This is not about the dangers of using aftermarket parts, this is about using parts NOT SPEC'D/DESIGNED for your car, such as an E30 expansion tank cap!

And you do know Bilstein is an OEM supplier to Mercedes for one, right? They're not some fly-by-night eBay company. They're used in Spec E30 race cars and hell.. little tip (I think it may be even somewhat of a secret, but BMW uses specially designed KW coilovers in their race cars--you didn't hear that from me)

Bottom line is you don't know the long-term effects using the wrong cap will yield. I suggest you take your car down here to Death Valley and see what happens. It's obvious that these cars have to work in a wide range of conditions.

Not sure how you could argue against using the parts that were spec'd and designed for your car.
Well, BMW didnt team up with bilstein to design dampers for this car m did they ? so I think its totally appropriate to say that they werent spec'd for your car. They were spec'd by Bilstein but that doesnt count as you were talking about BMW engineers and how they were supposed to spec everything , so if they didnt , it doesnt count.

Why do you think that the change in pressure is so dramatic ? You also mentioned the possibility about lowering the boiling point , how are you so certain? You also need to understand that the boiling point is not only affected by pressure but by the mixture of coolant/water as well and maybe even more by mixture rather then pressure. How many people mix the coolant EXACTLY 50/50 ? Most people dont even flush their coolant.

Im not installing 32" mug tires on my car, its a cap ! designed by BMW , sure it wasnt designed for my car specific car but its been proven to work and it works good. Search up on E39s , those guys mostly buy these caps. Ask them on bimmerforums about it .


I would put a disclaimer in my post ONLY if I truly believed that something was at compromise, but I can honestly tell you that I dont. The pressure change is not big enough to cause any concerns whatsoever but it IS big enough to prolong the life of the ET as its the weakest link on out systems. Its not like its something new, its been used for over 15 years now , E39 540 guys started it

Also just wanted to add that Im not trying to argue, we;re just having a friendly discussion
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Last edited by Blocked Out; 05-17-2012 at 09:23 PM.
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bleeding, coolant, cooling system, diy cooling, expansion tank, lower hose sensor, overheat, radiator, radiator hose, temp sensor, temperature sensor, thermostat, waste of money, water pump

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