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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 04-12-2012, 08:49 AM   #1
Serbonze
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MY first carbine class

This was my first carbine class, and a friend of mine flew down from NJ to join me. Iíve never been in the military or had any other training of this type carbine. If any of you guys have specific questions, please feel free to ask.

Goals for the class
Role of the repeating carbine/rifle in combat.
Selection considerations and attributes of weapons and accessories
Gun handling that works in a 360 degree environment
Sling techniques, mounts and dismounts
Load & Reload methods
Transitioning to the handgun
Precision engagement
Multiple engagements
Shooting on the move
Field firing positions
Snap shooting techniques
Fire and movement drills
ECQB with the carbine/rifle

Gear
BCM Lower with Sprinco Blue Buffer Spring and H2 Buffer
Spikes Upper with Battle Comp 2.0
Eotech XPS2-0
MS3 Sling
Glock 19 with Trijicon HD sights (orange) and Vickers extended mag release
Brokos Battle Belt with HSGI Taco mag pouches and G-Code Holster

My friend used a LWRC Tricon with an ACOG.

Actual Round Count
Over 600 rifle Federal XM193
Over 100 Federal 9mm

Class time
10 hours

Going in I was a bit worried that I wouldnít perform to the best of my abilities. Last month I crashed on my mountain bike and sprained my shooting wrist and ended up with a herniated disk (L5/S1). I wonít bore everyone with a minute by minute synopsis; Iíll touch on the high and low points. We started the day with some simple pistol drills, so I was going to test the wrist out immediately. I was pleasantly surprised, as it held up fine and I shot well so I knew that I would be okay for the rest of the class.

High Points
- Using my gear the way it was intended to be used.
- Understanding my gear placement and how to adjust it to better suit my needs.
- I was able to practice techniques that I had only seen on video.
- All of the different drills.
- Three Little Kittens; this is a drill that was created by Kyle Lamb. The instructor takes three ARs and purposefully creates a malfunction in each one. They are placed down on the ground next to each other and the student must go to each one and fix the malfunction and then put two rounds down range before moving to the next.
- By far my favorite drill was with working with a partner. We were ten yards apart, and about ten yards from the targets behind cover, with more cover about ten yards behind us. On command, we start firing and have to communicate with each other while moving forward and back, covering during the move and covering while the partner is reloading. When the rifle ran dry, we transitioned to pistol. This drill basically incorporated everything that we did throughout the day into one massive shoot. We did the drill several times, and had to take brakes because the guns were so hot we could not handle them anymore.

Low Points
- Both instructors were former military and Iím not. Iím not used to being instructed in the ďforcefulĒ manner that I found myself in.
- Sometimes we received conflicting commands from the instructors.
- There are usually several ways of getting the same result (tap/pull magazine, racking the charging handle, etc). I would have preferred a more open mind to different techniques.
- About half way through the day my wrist started to tighten up on me. As a result, it was difficult to hold some of the positions.
- I need to lose some weight from my AR. That ***** gets really heavy when holding it up for more than a minute.

My takeaways
- I need to figure out how to better manage my frustration when I donít perform well or donít perfect a technique immediately. This was very evident during the malfunction drills.
- All of my gear worked flawlessly.
- I have some adjustments to make on the Brokos belt. This is the current set up (although I had added a second pistol taco in the first molle strip after this pic was taken):



- I would like to remove the two pistol tacos and move the second rifle taco up to that spot. I will then mount one pistol taco on each rifle taco. It was a bit difficult to reach back to the second taco where it is currently mounted. If a class calls for me to carry more mags, I would mount another rifle taco where the second one currently sits. If not, I would leave that space open.
- I will move the dump pouch from the six oíclock to seven. Itís very uncomfortable when you are lying on your back or sitting in a chair.
- Itís very important to stay hydrated. I was guzzling water all day long and only pissed once.
- My friendís LWRC performed well. During the partner drill where we had sustained shooting, his rail got so hot where the gas is expelled he had to switch to his forward grip.
- Regardless of the temperature outside, I will always wear pants. I burned my calf twice from the BC while transitioning from primary to secondary weapon.
- One of the instructors called me a ***** for lubing up my BCG prior to shooting for the day. He stated that he hadnít cleaned or lubed his in months. His rifle stopped working half way through the class.
- The Battle Comp was excellent at keeping me on target and mitigating muzzle rise.
- The Trijicon HD sights on the Glock were money. Sooo much better than the stock sights.
- The muzzle brake on my friend's LWRC was a *****. It really sucked shooting next to him.

Overall, I was very pleased with the class. After ten hours, we were dreading the hour and a half ride home because we were both completely exhausted. I will definately take more classes in the future.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:59 AM   #2
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What was the name of the course, and who put it on?
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:06 AM   #3
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Urban Carbine, lead instructor was Jim Clark.

I forgot to mention something else that the instructors did that was actually very helpful. They loaded up a bunch of our mags and randomly included dummy rounds. It was different from the ball and dummy drill that I've done before, in that we were in the middle of a different drill and had to problem solve.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:53 AM   #4
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Was it a beginner level, or advanced level?

I have some observations/questions. I have never taken this course, so I'm looking at this from the outside and making an outsider observation, so please excuse me if I go overboard.

Quote:
My friend used a LWRC Tricon with an ACOG.
Which ACOG was it? BAC model? Did he have any issues running a magnified optic versus others running non-magnified? What ranges did you shoot at?


Quote:
Actual Round Count
Over 600 rifle Federal XM193
Over 100 Federal 9mm

Class time
10 hours
Did you feel like you learned a lot with this round count? Given that it was 10 hours, I can't imagine you spent a lot of time on any one specific skill, but rather put more time into the overall skillset.


Quote:
- Understanding my gear placement and how to adjust it to better suit my needs.
Most people wind up adjusting their setup on the first brake. Did you? Were a lot of others?


Quote:
Low Points
- Both instructors were former military and I’m not. I’m not used to being instructed in the “forceful” manner that I found myself in.
Was it just them telling you what to do, or was it them yelling at you? What kind of students were in the class?


Quote:
- Sometimes we received conflicting commands from the instructors.
Like what? This is often times an indication of people who don't have their shit together and created a hodge-podge of training. Other times they may just be off of their game.


Quote:
- There are usually several ways of getting the same result (tap/pull magazine, racking the charging handle, etc). I would have preferred a more open mind to different techniques.
What were some things that were done that you didn't like? There are two types of curriculum that instructors use- A way, and THE way. Did they teach their was as A way, or THE way to do things? Did they explain why they did what they did?


Quote:
- I need to lose some weight from my AR. That bitch gets really heavy when holding it up for more than a minute.
What kind of things were you doing to make weight an issue?


Quote:
- It’s very important to stay hydrated. I was guzzling water all day long and only pissed once.
You can never have enough. I also like to use Camelbak Orange Alert, as it has electrolytes. Or as we call it, "Camelcrack".


Quote:
- One of the instructors called me a ***** for lubing up my BCG prior to shooting for the day. He stated that he hadn’t cleaned or lubed his in months. His rifle stopped working half way through the class.
What did he say when his gun took a dump? Good job lubing your gun. I can't imagine anyone in their right mind believing that lube isn't necessary in an AR. Kinda seems like these guys might have a ways to go in their own development. Even NiB coated bolts need lube. If an instructor had said this to me, I'd be pretty pissed about it. Something like that is basic stuff- makes me wonder about the quality of the instructor that said it.
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Was it a beginner level, or advanced level?
Absolutely a beginner course. I wanted to take a very basic course to get my feet wet and to decide if this was something that I liked and wanted to do more of in the future. My thought was going with a small beginner class to start, I could fumble my way through and find out what works, and what I really need to work on prior to taking any other courses. I don't ever want to be "that guy" in class thta the instructor has to spend his time with because he doesn't know what the hell he is doing.

Quote:
Which ACOG was it? BAC model? Did he have any issues running a magnified optic versus others running non-magnified? What ranges did you shoot at?
I have no idea which one it was. He was also running a micro red dot on top of it, which he used instead of the ACOG. We shot from 7-30y.


Quote:
Did you feel like you learned a lot with this round count? Given that it was 10 hours, I can't imagine you spent a lot of time on any one specific skill, but rather put more time into the overall skillset.
I feel that I now have a good grasp of the overall concepts, which was my intent for taking the class. I was hoping to get my feet wet with a one day class, get over any nerves and equipment issues, and prepare myself for full two or three day classes in the future.

Quote:
Most people wind up adjusting their setup on the first brake. Did you? Were a lot of others?
I adjusted a few minor things like sling length, stock length, etc. I wasn't going to take the time to fuss with the malice clips on the Brokos during a break.

Quote:
Was it just them telling you what to do, or was it them yelling at you? What kind of students were in the class?
It was a standard walk through prior to a drill. During the drill, the intensity would ratchet up. It was really no different than what you see in any of the instructional videos. The instructor gets on the student to force them to function and problem solve in a stressful environment.

Quote:
Like what? This is often times an indication of people who don't have their shit together and created a hodge-podge of training. Other times they may just be off of their game.
I got the impression that the second instructor was in training, so it was a matter of miscommunication.

Quote:
What were some things that were done that you didn't like? There are two types of curriculum that instructors use- A way, and THE way. Did they teach their was as A way, or THE way to do things? Did they explain why they did what they did?
An example; tap/pull/rack. Their way is with the muzzle pointed completely vertical. I have always kept it at about a 45 degree angle facing up, and instead of slamming the bottom of the mag home, I do a push/pull when inserting. Their way is a smack to the bottom, then tug, then rack the charging handle. I guess I thought my way was more efficient, but I'm certainly no expert and it's their class.


Quote:
What kind of things were you doing to make weight an issue?
Not sure I understand what you mean. I wasn't physically doing anything, but I would like to start to look at the weight of the different parts of the gun along with functionality. For example, I currently have a pretty heavy 12" rail. If I'm going to continue taking classes, it might be time to look at lighter rails.


Quote:
What did he say when his gun took a dump? Good job lubing your gun. I can't imagine anyone in their right mind believing that lube isn't necessary in an AR. Kinda seems like these guys might have a ways to go in their own development. Even NiB coated bolts need lube. If an instructor had said this to me, I'd be pretty pissed about it. Something like that is basic stuff- makes me wonder about the quality of the instructor that said it.
It was really said in jest, with no ill intent. They were testing out some kind of lubricant and wanted to see how long it would go without cleaning and using only Wolf. I just thought it was great that it died during the class.
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbonze View Post
- I need to lose some weight from my AR. That ***** gets really heavy when holding it up for more than a minute.
The number one thing I hate is seeing people with 30 pounds of crap strapped onto their AR-15. Glad you learned the lesson that more is not better.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:14 PM   #7
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The only thing on it is the Eotech and my BUIS. If this is something that I continue on with, I'll start looking at each component individually to focus on weight reduction. As I said in my original post, I think the first thing to look at is the 12" rail that I'm currently using. I very much like the longer rail, since my arms are so long. However, it weighs 16.89oz. The Daniel Defense 12" Omega is 13.4oz, and I've also got my eye on the Troy TRX Extreme 13 rail 11.3oz. Obviously, it's a completley different rail type so I would want to try it out before I made any kind of switch.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbonze View Post
The only thing on it is the Eotech and my BUIS. If this is something that I continue on with, I'll start looking at each component individually to focus on weight reduction. As I said in my original post, I think the first thing to look at is the 12" rail that I'm currently using. I very much like the longer rail, since my arms are so long. However, it weighs 16.89oz. The Daniel Defense 12" Omega is 13.4oz, and I've also got my eye on the Troy TRX Extreme 13 rail 11.3oz. Obviously, it's a completley different rail type so I would want to try it out before I made any kind of switch.
why do you have full rails on it if the only attachment you have is the optic?
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
why do you have full rails on it if the only attachment you have is the optic?
Because I bought a complete upper and it came with a full rail.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:03 PM   #10
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gotcha
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:22 PM   #11
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Did they do a zero at the beginning? If so, what zero did they use?

As far as doing things different ways, that's going to happen with every course you take. Each instructor will have a different method. I personally prefer push-pull on the magazine, as I have seen slapping the base of a magazine cause double-feed when seating on an open bolt. I hit the ping-pong paddle to release the bolt, but some instructors believe in yanking the charging handle. Jeff Gonzales (former SEAL) of Trident Concepts is big on pulling the charging handle to release the bolt. He also indicates that you need to have a proper charging handle to do this, like a BCM or PRI. I am going to a TRICON class later this year, and while I don't like the charging handle technique, I'll do it while at class to give it a shot. Even something as little as immediate action drills varies by instructor. I'm a push-pull-rack-n-roll person. Some people teach tip-tap-rack. It's all about what works best for you for the most part. Some stuff works better, some does not.

In reading the course description, it sounds like this is more of a "survey" or "Intro 100" type course. When you go into 2- and 3-day courses, you will get a much higher level of training (usually), since you can dedicate a lot more time to each individual skill. When you said this:

Quote:
My takeaways
- I need to figure out how to better manage my frustration when I don’t perform well or don’t perfect a technique immediately. This was very evident during the malfunction drills.
Your frustration is likely a product of you being asked to perform a skillset without first mastering each individual skill. This is the fault of the course and instructor, not you. The thing to take away would be to consider breaking this down on your own and understanding how each particular skill is best performed. Frustration definitely plays a mindfuck with you, and that will screw you up. More than anything, I'd be willing to bet that you need to slow down. Hell, we all do. Slowing down is the best way to make sure we're doing everything we need to do, correctly. We just amped up and caught up in the moment and we start hurrying, and then shots start going outside and we start sucking the moosecock.
Don't beat yourself up over this. The fact that you came out of the course with an understanding of what you're capable is enough to indicate that you probably took away everything you could from the course.
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Last edited by Reedo302; 04-12-2012 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 04-13-2012, 08:39 AM   #12
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Quote:
Did they do a zero at the beginning? If so, what zero did they use?
Yes, 50 yards.

Quote:
In reading the course description, it sounds like this is more of a "survey" or "Intro 100" type course.
Yep, like I said, I wanted to get my feet wet before going into a two or three day.

Quote:
We just amped up and caught up in the moment and we start hurrying, and then shots start going outside and we start sucking the moosecock.
Absolutely. Step by step I was fine, but in the heat of the moment is when brain lock occured. I'm happy to report that I didn't earn the moosecock patch for a magazine falling out.


I'm interested to hear if Jeff runs the LWRC Tricon during the class, since he put it together, and that's what my friend was using. It ran well, with the only issue being the heat build-up around the top rail where the gas is vented. I guess it's a trade off, hot lower reciever or hot rail. He had a forward grip mounted as well so he switched to that (broom handle grip), where I never had to switch my grip at all. But I guess that's another discussion all together...
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:02 AM   #13
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Jeff does run the Tricon LWRC.

Does your friend ever have any issues with his piston return spring? Or does he regularly replace it?
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