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Old 02-10-2013, 11:45 AM   #1
e60fan
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Arrow DME MS45 tune or ProEFI/AEM/MS3 EMS for Parallel mode

Hi guys!
TrippinBimmer said should post up a new thread about subject so it is...

MS45 stock DME has builtin torque control - it's true. When calculated TQ exceeds stock DME goes in limp mode. I checked this myself on M54B25 with B30 head + intake + exhaust and tune attempt by me. When bhp exceeds stock its OK but if TQ more than stock DME goes in limp mode.
Because of this I'm thinking about ProEFI or AEM or MS3 + stock DME to work in Parallel ECU mode...

Good question is what to do with non availablity injectors and coils at stock DME after rewiring to aftermarket ECU for Parallel work? Or stock DME will be happy with this by default? I don't check this, for injectors as variant to add resistors, but for coils...

Also I want to control fuel pump/electronic throttle body/idle valve via EMS because of possibility that MS45 will go into limp mode when TQ exceeds stock... Need to know how TQ calculation works at MS45 to make solution for this problem.

About MS45 tune - I contact NickG a week ago but no answer yet. And this will be difficult to do overseas. Also stock DME has MAF limiting factor for turbo application - MAP is better. With MAF we can't tune ignition for example by boost at the intake manifold. Also with stock DME no boost by gears, antilag, launch control and so on...

For current my leader is budget solution Pro48. Wire Pro48 at stock DME harness so it will be work in parallel mode with MS45. But Pro48 have one big no-no - doesn't have knock control. So if we have bad petrol on road and no ignition retard we would blow out turbo engine. Also Pro48 has only 4 Peak n Hold injectors so it must be wired correctly in someway 3 by 3 as do supra guys with L6 2jz and Pro48 on board.

Also warn is that ProEFI doesn't have builtin logging feature as MS3 or AEM for example. Guys, what is yours choice?..

Last edited by e60fan; 02-10-2013 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:03 AM   #2
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You should use the ProEfi 128. It has an adapter harness so you won't have to cut your factory harness. The factory computer can run the throttle bodies and the idle the ProEFI will run the rest. It will not go into limp mode like this.

ProEFI also has a logger that you can connect to the can cable, it will hold almost a years worth of driving. ProEfi is by far the best choice.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:18 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saad @ Saad Racing View Post
You should use the ProEfi 128. It has an adapter harness so you won't have to cut your factory harness. The factory computer can run the throttle bodies and the idle the ProEFI will run the rest. It will not go into limp mode like this.

ProEFI also has a logger that you can connect to the can cable, it will hold almost a years worth of driving. ProEfi is by far the best choice.
Saad,

With this Standalone. What options does it have? Input and Output Channels? Features that will make this option more appealing then the AEM Infinity, Vipec V88, and Syvecs/Life Racing (One I'm thinking about getting)?

-Anthony

Last edited by TrippinBimmer; 02-11-2013 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Auto-save 1360603165
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:04 PM   #4
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You should use the ProEfi 128. It has an adapter harness so you won't have to cut your factory harness. The factory computer can run the throttle bodies and the idle the ProEFI will run the rest. It will not go into limp mode like this.

ProEFI also has a logger that you can connect to the can cable, it will hold almost a years worth of driving. ProEfi is by far the best choice.
For my 2004 BMW 5-series e60 MS45.0 ProEFI said doesn't have plug & play harness. So I think about Pro48 and wiring myself via universal harness kit. Stock DME will handle DSC/DTC by manipulating of throttle body and ABS as it works usually.

Pro48 has support of electronic throttle body + variable cams so I think can directly control Double Vanos and EDC if stock DME wants to go in limp mode but no DSC/DTC in this way...

A big question is about limp mode - if MS45 would go in limp than Double Vanos restricted and power loose as a result. I read now topic at bimmerboost about ProEFI and N54. Try to find solution - some information was about Double Vanos:
http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...Our-ProEFI-N54

Last edited by e60fan; 02-11-2013 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:20 PM   #5
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Syvecs/Life Racing seems to have their **** together that's for sure...AMS and Switzer switched these onto their GTR's as a full standalone.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:24 PM   #6
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Syvecs/Life Racing seems to have their **** together that's for sure...AMS and Switzer switched these onto their GTR's as a full standalone.
I seem to have started something....
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:03 PM   #7
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Syvecs/Life Racing seems to have their **** together that's for sure...AMS and Switzer switched these onto their GTR's as a full standalone.
Yeah i've been looking at the syvecs/life/pectel for a while now.. I'm impressed with the full standalone/can Syvecs S6 the GTR's are running and I believe Supras..
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:28 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by e60fan View Post
For my 2004 BMW 5-series e60 MS45.0 ProEFI said doesn't have plug & play harness. So I think about Pro48 and wiring myself via universal harness kit. Stock DME will handle DSC/DTC by manipulating of throttle body and ABS as it works usually.

Pro48 has support of electronic throttle body + variable cams so I think can directly control Double Vanos and EDC if stock DME wants to go in limp mode but no DSC/DTC in this way...

A big question is about limp mode - if MS45 would go in limp than Double Vanos restricted and power loose as a result. I read now topic at bimmerboost about ProEFI and N54. Try to find solution - some information was about Double Vanos:
http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...Our-ProEFI-N54
I had assumed that you had a E46 M3, my apologies. You can wire it in without much issue. You will save money that way too. But I would use the ProEfi128, much stronger ecu , many more I/O's, flex fuel capable...You just need to know how to wire in the throttle and the cam control, the ecu can do it. If you do that it won't matter if the factory ecu tries to go into limp mode. But you need to know how to do it or have someone there help you that knows.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:44 PM   #9
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Saad,

With this Standalone. What options does it have? Input and Output Channels? Features that will make this option more appealing then the AEM Infinity, Vipec V88, and Syvecs/Life Racing (One I'm thinking about getting)?

-Anthony
If you want to know and compare all the options of the different ecu's you can go to the different websites and make your own judgement on options. But in my opinion, what you should look at is that the ProEfi has more i/o's and options than you could ever use in a street driven M3. It is supported by guys like myself and its on the fastest E46's. I have never seen a failure in one of the ecu's to date! You just can't ask for a better set up for your car, than if you consider the cost its a slam dunk. The Syvecs is twice the cost and its not a better ecu and its not supported on the M3 like the ProEfi is. As an example, if I was racing our M3 and thought of a new feature that it needed, I can have Jason write the code for it and everyone with a ProEfi would have that feature by just updating there software. Why do you think so many Supra owners switched to ProEfi. When they saw the success of the Saad Racing silver supra they all started switching and many cars have had great success.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:28 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Saad @ Saad Racing View Post
If you want to know and compare all the options of the different ecu's you can go to the different websites and make your own judgement on options. But in my opinion, what you should look at is that the ProEfi has more i/o's and options than you could ever use in a street driven M3. It is supported by guys like myself and its on the fastest E46's. I have never seen a failure in one of the ecu's to date! You just can't ask for a better set up for your car, than if you consider the cost its a slam dunk. The Syvecs is twice the cost and its not a better ecu and its not supported on the M3 like the ProEfi is. As an example, if I was racing our M3 and thought of a new feature that it needed, I can have Jason write the code for it and everyone with a ProEfi would have that feature by just updating there software. Why do you think so many Supra owners switched to ProEfi. When they saw the success of the Saad Racing silver supra they all started switching and many cars have had great success.
Maybe you can help me make the comparison?

I have looked at the ProEFI configuration software, and with the example files provide via the website, I can't seem to find the I/Os to support the following:

E46 M3 Drive By Wire
  • 2 X Pedal Position sensor inputs
  • 2 X Throttle position sensor inputs
  • 2 X H-bridge throttle outputs
  • Calibration options including PID control

E46 M3 Dual VANOS
  • 2 X Cam position sensor inputs
  • 4 X Cam position solenoid outputs
  • Calibration options for dual VANOS

For traction control, there is only 2 speed sensor inputs. This may be fine in a straight line, but as soon as you start turning corners, you will get variations in wheel speed. Also, in many cases with a well setup suspension you will get a rear wheel lifting during cornering. If that happens to be the corner that does not have a wheel speed sensor on it, you will have too much torque allowed through the drivetrain.

A traction control system with 4 wheel speed inputs, and also GPS input for speed validation would be useful.

Is there a calibration file with all of the above available, or do these features have to be written?

What would make this ECU more attractive to someone like myself would be the ability to configure inputs and outputs the way all of the competition does. (You can use AEM V2 as a price comparison, and AEM Infinity, Motec, Pectel, Vipec, Syvecs, and Bosch Motorsports as more expensive examples that can run all of the I/Os of an S54 engine)

I agree that the ProEFI pricing is very modest, and that the number of I/Os compared to other ECUs in the market is very high.

Last edited by PEI330Ci; 02-12-2013 at 02:30 PM. Reason: Auto-save 1360701058
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:09 PM   #11
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The proefi def has the DBW controls as those are the same inputs needed by my VQ.

If you repurpose the DG inputs and LS outputs, there are enough for Vanos. The tuning for the VVT is not very good though. You only get 1 PID control for a pair of cams. That means you cannot tune bank to bank (if it was a V type motor with just variable intake cams ) or you cannot tune intake vs exhaust cams (like Vanos). Thats why SP lets the stock ECU control the DBW and VANOS.

You could repurpose the DG channels for 4 wheel speed inputs, but again there is no control for anything past driven vs non-driven.

Saad might be able to have Jason write code from him in a timely fashion, but if an enduser needs support, good luck. I've been on my Proefi for 3 years and it would be nice to have functioning traction control sometime soon.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:28 PM   #12
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The proefi def has the DBW controls as those are the same inputs needed by my VQ.

If you repurpose the DG inputs and LS outputs, there are enough for Vanos. The tuning for the VVT is not very good though. You only get 1 PID control for a pair of cams. That means you cannot tune bank to bank (if it was a V type motor with just variable intake cams ) or you cannot tune intake vs exhaust cams (like Vanos). Thats why SP lets the stock ECU control the DBW and VANOS.

You could repurpose the DG channels for 4 wheel speed inputs, but again there is no control for anything past driven vs non-driven.

Saad might be able to have Jason write code from him in a timely fashion, but if an enduser needs support, good luck. I've been on my Proefi for 3 years and it would be nice to have functioning traction control sometime soon.
This statement on vcam isn't at all accurate. You only have 1 set of pid settings (gains), but the feedback loop itself is seperate as each cam has it's own position sensor.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:31 PM   #13
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Syvecs/Life Racing seems to have their **** together that's for sure...AMS and Switzer switched these onto their GTR's as a full standalone.
Can you explain why neither of them has gone as fast with the Syvecs as they had with the ProEFI?
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:32 PM   #14
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When my cam2 goes into integral feedback loop and there is no way to independently stop that without limiting the MAX I on CAM1. Syvecs has PID control for each cam channel.

All that might be available in the dealer software though.

Overall its a great setup as long as everything works out of the box. I can live with the few issues to have superior product!
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:40 PM   #15
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So the best choice for me is Pro128? Or Syvecs S6GP? Price excluding VAT is about the same as I see.

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Old 02-12-2013, 03:44 PM   #16
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Can you explain why neither of them has gone as fast with the Syvecs as they had with the ProEFI?
What were the times on Syvecs?
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:48 PM   #17
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When my cam2 goes into integral feedback loop and there is no way to independently stop that without limiting the MAX I on CAM1. Syvecs has PID control for each cam channel.

All that might be available in the dealer software though.

Overall its a great setup as long as everything works out of the box. I can live with the few issues to have superior product!
If it is going in to adjustment...that is because it is moving away from target. There are two SEPERATE PID loops in the ProEFI.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:49 PM   #18
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So the best choice for me is Pro128? Or Syvecs? Price is about the same as I see.
When are you hoping to complete this project, whats your time frame?
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:49 PM   #19
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What were the times on Syvecs?
about 3 tenths slower....which is ALOT at those times.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:29 PM   #20
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When are you hoping to complete this project, whats your time frame?
Fabrication almost done. Ideally I want to make first start of engine with big injectors and turbo in March (the best time for USPS Express shipping to me is about 2 weeks).

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