Stock E46 ZHP hangs with E90 M3's at the track

Originally Posted by timsev

the E90 driver was not pushing the limit at all, not even close.

Since he drove that car to the track, no wonder he took it easy. You have to have a good amount of skill to be able to push an E9x M3 to limit... and once you're there, make sure you have control of the situation

This past weekend, I watched a 2008 Honda Civic run down and pass a 2012 Porsche 997 GTS at Mid-Ohio. On the other hand, I watched a Dodge Challenger SRT8 struggle to get below the times of a Mazda 2 and a Mini.

To top that off, at NJMP I watched a 2012 Audi R8 racecar struggle to get below the time of a 2008 Honda Civic.

god i want to go auto-x my car....

I loooove that track.

Originally Posted by dji203

anything can happen at the track. i have vids/pix passing cars ranging from e92 m3 to 458 italia's... usually the more expensive the car, the worse the driver, ha.

A lot more pressure too...because they guy in the 458 must know that he'll be one youtube everytime someone passes him.

Love the debate and thought I'd add my 2¢. First a foremost...just about anyone can drive fast in a straight line. Case in point...the fast and furious movies that spawned the crazy ***** generation. It takes skill as a driver to be fast in the corners. I think what is being missed in this debate is the fact that there are many different lines you can take on the track. The challenge is finding the fastest one. In my humble opinion looking at the videos....the 330ci is taking a much different line then the other two. My personal example of this was at the glen this past July in an EMRA time trial event. Registered last and didn't feel like reading specifics in the rule book for classing so I just went with the top class so I didn't have to worry. Long story short I was up against two race prepped cars. A mustang gt and corvette. I swear on everything holy that my car was basically stock. The engine was bone stock hadn't touched it. The only work I had done was coilovers, urethane bushings, hawk pads, and a staggered wheel setup. I'll let the times speak for themselves....

the only thing I'll add is HP is useless if you cant get it down to the track

The line I would take in an E90 M3 would be a little different than in my 330. First, the e90 can't do a quick switchback like an E46 with coilovers can.

At MSR Houston, I did a 1:47:6 in my 330 @ 3320 lbs. I did a 1:45:5 in my E90 M3 at full weight and stock damper, dinan springs, stoptech BBK.

Make no mistake, a well driven E9x m3 will slaughter a non-m e46. Just wait until people start putting coilovers on AND dropping 400 lbs...those will be absolute beasts.

Moral of the story: For the track if you've got an E46 330 and an extra $5-40k to spend keep the car and buy more seat time! That video is a blast. Thanks for posting it.

No faith for the e46 race... lol.

Time to revisit. Taking nothing away from SpeedDemon, excellent pace and driving! He shows why cornering speed is so important and why a Miata will hang on your bumper well down some of the straights. Any mid corner speed differential multiplies as you get further down the straight. So unless you just have a ton more power it will take a lot of distance to overcome the deficit.

With that said, don't think that an E9X M3 can't absolutely crush an N/A 330...it will. You drive an E46 with generally late apexes and keep things neat from turn in to exit to be fast. An E9X M3 is 100% the opposite. You shoot for slightly earlier apexes and really throttle the car through the turns. The tighter the turn, the more sideways you need to be. And you need to keep the tires right at the edge of traction (max slip angle for the tires) and you'll pretty much obliterate most cars on the track. Do you need to mod the E9X M3 a lot to be fast? Nope. Maybe just wider stickier rubber, better brakes, and more rear suspension travel.

The beauty about the E9X M3 is that it really does reward you more as you drive it faster.

I ran a 14.65 first time ever on a strip with 215/17/45 tires... Whoever can't run a 15... Needs to learn how to drive their car...

We're talking track driving here...sorry, a drag strip is not the track.

Agreed with everything Jae is saying but I've never had success with being fast while having any considerable sideways movement out of my E92 M3. I usually try to keep the E92 very neat through most turns (except for very low speed turns) and almost always late apex so I can start putting the power down HARD. The amount of traction that the E92 generates out of nowhere (it feels like magic sometimes) just boggles my mind, but it can be really advantageous when on the right tires and the right suspension settings to take advantage of that traction to get the power down.

With regards to traction in general on the E92, I've found that my fastest (not the most fun, but fastest) laps are done if/when I keep the E92 in MDM (M Dynamic Mode) which forces the stability and traction control both to be on; I found this to be the complete opposite of my E46 though.

I'm getting stoked for track season and can't wait to get out with the E92 this season and learn more about the car. With that said, I want to reiterate what Jae is saying that an E92 with spank an E46 all day long given the same person driving both cars. My buddies are seriously competent drivers from this video, but I break harder and deeper than them and that is really all that the speed difference comes down to.

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Time to revisit. Taking nothing away from SpeedDemon, excellent pace and driving! He shows why cornering speed is so important and why a Miata will hang on your bumper well down some of the straights. Any mid corner speed differential multiplies as you get further down the straight. So unless you just have a ton more power it will take a lot of distance to overcome the deficit.

With that said, don't think that an E9X M3 can't absolutely crush an N/A 330...it will. You drive an E46 with generally late apexes and keep things neat from turn in to exit to be fast. An E9X M3 is 100% the opposite. You shoot for slightly earlier apexes and really throttle the car through the turns. The tighter the turn, the more sideways you need to be. And you need to keep the tires right at the edge of traction (max slip angle for the tires) and you'll pretty much obliterate most cars on the track. Do you need to mod the E9X M3 a lot to be fast? Nope. Maybe just wider stickier rubber, better brakes, and more rear suspension travel.

The beauty about the E9X M3 is that it really does reward you more as you drive it faster.

I have to slightly disagree with you. Although you are correct in that faster cornering speed equates to faster straightline speed and like you said with a Miata. I'm also not going to disagree with the E9x M3s be much faster then an N/A 330. I would probably give my first born for own one but I cant so I will settle for a lowly 330ci lol.
What I really wanted to talk about was your description of cornering. Any lose of traction, wheelspin/oversteer/understeer/locking up brakes will cost you time. Oversteer like you are descricing with the E9x is bleeding off speed. Take rally for example (which I race too and is a ton of fun I suggest doing that in the winter!!! ) when on a loose surface there is limited traction for breaking. that is why rally drivers throw the car sideways entering a corner aka sidewall braking. this allows them to get the car slowed down and placed in the right spot for the exit of the corner. On the track this isnt the best way to go. BMWs are momentum cars in general and any break in traction will loose that momentum. That is why the proper suspension and break setup is so important for these cars.
If I may make a suggestion....next time youre at the track experiment in using different apex's based on not the corner your entering but rather the corner to follow. Set up for that corner. example: early/center apex for a double right or late for a right followed by left. Avoid breaking traction and allowing the car to come to you. "Slow in fast out". it will allow you to get all that power from the M3 down to the ground sooner as you exit the corner. I think you might see a difference. Only the clock will tell you the story too. I like to experiment with different lines and record my lap times and then compare.
If its possible I'd love to see some lap times comparing the 2 cuz I'm interested in seeing how the E9x M3 reacts.

I'll put up some videos. I disagree with you both. I've driven an E36 M3, E46 M3, and of course a 330. Turn the DSC off in those, you still have to be a retard to get the back end to come around. An E9X M3 is way different in character. Turn the DSC off and its instantly a wild ride whenever you get on the throttle. Yes, the E9X M3 is much more neutral and even kind of prone to oversteer. Look at the suspension design, it is very different from the E36/E46 which were essentially the same. Most important, look at the rear, there's no trailing arm. The E9X M3 reacts very differently than an E46. I have to check. I know when the rear suspension compresses, the E46 toes out. I'm thinking that the E9X toes in but I'm not sure. But the setup is very different as well.

The problem with the E9X m3 is the weight and rear suspension which especially in low speed turns and switch backs where the front to rear weight transfer under power makes you wait so long to get on the power. The problem is a lot of power, not a lot of rear suspension travel. So you can take a nice neat late apex but as you get more advanced, late apexing is slower. In fact advanced drivers should be utilizing slip angle and some slide to from braking to exit. If you late apex you are not slipping the car around the apex. In any car, I can run up on someone's bumper at the apex taking a later turn in because they create a much sharper angle. Vs an earlier turn in I'm using less steering input and I'm on throttle rotating the car with slip angle and even sliding the car a bit. Which is faster? I'm willing to be the car that is turning less. Its one of those things they teach you as a novice that you unlearn as an advanced driver. The fantastic thing about the M3 is that you can rotate the car with your right foot and its easily controllable and you can quickly gather the car and go.

There is something interesting about the E9X M3. The power band (especially the DCT) means you need to keep the needle pinned to the redline. And with the DCT, the car takes off like a rocket ship within an upshift to 4th. So you want to get to redline in 3rd ASAP so you can get that shove in 4th.

The beauty about a stock E9X M3 is that it rewards right foot steering, loads of slip angle and sliding. And that IS the faster way to drive. Throttle and balance makes the car go faster. Not braking and turning. The less brake input and less steering input...the faster. Even if it requires some sliding.

If I had coilovers on the E90...different story.

perhaps were both right and misunderstanding what each other is talking about? I really cant speak to the handling of an E9x M3 on the track cuz I havent driven one around. The point I was raising is like you, I want to be in the car with less steering angle which is why i was talking about using different apex points depending not on the current courner but the one after. fact of the matter is if im in the corner im going as fast as i will be...theres no changing it. if ive screwed it up and its because of something i did before/ entering the corner. there is very little i can do midcorner to correct my mistake. (talking cornering speed not going off). that is why it is important to set up corners based on what follows them. my goal on the track and ive been at this a long time, is to make it as straight as possible. now like i said i cant speak to the handeling but can see how the S65 engine would lead to more oversteer in that car. heavy V8 in the front and all. one thing though that i cant agree with you on when speaking of a single corner in general is "less brake input and less steering input....the faster" (im going to controdict myself a little but bear with me i think youll understand what im saying) simple laws of physics state that objects are going to remain in their current path unless changed by some froce or friction. that force in the case of a car would be your steering input. as you turn you create friction thus changing the direction of the cars momentum but at the cost of slowing down. so you are partially correct that more steering input would mean slower, however i would counter that with how much friction are you creating when sliding all 4 tires vs just 2. now IMO both are bad. speaking to advanced driving techneques in this case i would challenge you that very late threshold braking with trail braking in a corner i am creating less friction on my tires and thus more speed through a corner vs using slip angle. i know a car with a lot of power can help but you want to be dangling your toes over the edge of your traction not jumping off the cliff.

I'm just talking about a typical right or left hander. Switchbacks and double left/right handers are so different and unique. I define threshold braking as the maximum braking force to bring the front tires up to their optimal slip angle (or in our cars..before ABS kicks in). What I do is brake with less pressure and lengthen my braking zone unless I am trying to lighten the back end and rotate with the brake. If you threshold brake everytime how much traction do you really have at the rear? There are certain turns where threshold braking is best...but NOT always. Sometimes brushing the brakes lightly and keeping some weight over the rear axle will yield more speed (it will always yield more overall grip).

A car that is threshold braking will have less grip than a car that is not threshold braking but has applied the brakes for slightly longer and brought the car down to the same speed. Because you've taken more grip out of the rear with the brakes and you are asking more of the front tires.

BTW, the S65 is lighter than the S54. Not my E90 M3 but here is a turn that definitely shows the differences in the chassis...(never mind what the car was doing...new car, just getting a feel for it). But that's my E90 line which apparently I didn't execute well with the E46. So look at the first segment and the right 180 and then the left hander...



In an E90, you'll have to wait until you're past the exit of the left hander to get on full throttle if you keep the car neat and all 4 wheels gripping. I go deep before I turn in, very late apex and then I still have to wait for the car to settle before I go left and get on the throttle. Its so slow.

Or

If I don't go nearly as deep. Steer the car with the throttle and bring the back end around as I approach a VERY late apex. The car is settled and I can apex that left hander a little earlier and I'm on full throttle using the rear tires to push the car out to the rumble strips on exit. I don't need data, I know this is faster because I need to use all of the track.

Vs keeping the car gripping, I'm steering the car out the edge of the track.

@bigjae, maybe I'm misunderstanding the point you are trying to make above as I squeeze this reply in during the middle of the workday, but that video doesn't illustrate the fastest way to take that series of turns in an E9x. The driver of that car should have stayed track left (he entered the turn mid-track), slowed the car as late as possible into the first turn, trail braked, let the back-end unsettle just slightly into a mild oversteer (no tail wiggle), then balanced the car with the throttle from turn-in through apex, from the apex to track-out he should have mildly applied the throttle so the car could stay mid-track, late-apexed the second turn neatly, and then gotten as hard on the throttle as possible to carry as much speed to track-out. The person driving that car was clearly either hooning it or just learning their car's limits.

I agree with SpeedDemon in his anylosis even for an e46 maybe slightly different. By staying mid track through the center of the corner in order to late apex the car will naturally rotate without the tires breaking loose as you describe. this will also allow you to only track out to mid track so you can get back right for a center apex of the left hander. this will allow you to get the car settled and full throttle by the time you hit the apex of the left hander. it will also cause you to use the whole track as you describe because if you dont the car will push and youll lose speed at exit. in order to stay in the throttle you have to decrease your steering input and your momentum will carry you to the rumbles.

You are right bigjae about your remarks on trail braking. it does ask more of the front tires and lightens the rear of the car. However done properly you will be faster IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong but from the sound of things your braking technique starts early and ends before you turn in. Here is way trail braking works. As you threshold brake you are braking later and harder then "normal". this means 2 things....I will be in the throttle longer which means fast speed at my braking zone. The second is that the cost is that I have to work harder to get the car slowed down. by threshold braking and trail braking into a corner im still on the brakes at turn in. that isnt to say that I'm braking to slow the car down. I am hard on the brake getting the car slowed down to the second i am turning in. as soon as i start turning i am slowly releasing the brake. this gives me maximum braking during the braking zone at late as possible and to simplify it so i dont confuse anyone i use the turn in protion of the corner for my slow smooth release. the time it takes to have your smooth release before you turn in is time i can spend on the throttle before the braking zone. it also eliminates freewheeling the car through the corner so that in theory i will always be giving input into what the car does in a corner. on the subject of weight transfer with trail braking, using this method as i release during turn in the weight is slowly transfering off the front wheels. by the time i am done releasing the brake the car is settled enough that i can roll the throttle back on and transfer the rest of the weight back to the rear. by now my turing is completed and my car is pointing in the direction i want it to be at track out and i have full traction in the rear thus not loosing any power to the rear wheels slipping. yes it "feels" slower because youre not over the edge of control and the car is composed. i feel like im going 150 when im sideways on snow/dirt covered roads through the woods but when i get a chance to see the speedo im only doing 50-60 (picking a number). install a program or do an event that records times and id be willing to bet my life on the fact that slidding the car will produce slower lap times!