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Old 05-07-2012, 10:22 PM   #101
Raymond42262
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The other question is this: even if you could prove it and make everyone believe you, what would you do with it? How would it change the world?
There is no telling what would change. But...2900 people were murdered that day, people lots billions of money in the stock market, and 1500 (?) soldiers have lost their lives fighting in Afghanistan. Tens of thousands have been injured as well. And how much have we spent there... 200, 300 BN over the last ten years ?

If a man was murdered on the streets of America, more attention would be paid to his individual death than what has been given to those that have died since 9/11. Even if a man dies in a situation as extreme as this, he still has civil rights and he (and his family) still have the right to know who was responsible.


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BTW, the reason I'm posting here is because your government has a history of setting up stuff like this. Once you start reading up on Operation Northwoods and stuff like that, it's hard NOT to suspect that something else was going on there on 9/11.
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i am pretty sure that many of the families that were effected by this event would not want to know that their own country killed their family. why do you still think about this?
I don't think Bush had anything to do with this, but perhaps someone in the govt did. However, if you don't pursue the truth then you create opportunities for it to occur again.

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Because of this thread, and maybe because a LOT of people suspect that something was just "off". Not sure. I'm Canadian, and I didn't lose any loved ones in those attacks, so I'm going to shut up soon. I'm not trying to offend any Americans here, but this discussion is kinda pointless due to the emotions involved, and the fact that none of us will ever have all the facts.

I honestly don't understand the Vissini reference. If I wasn't exhausted and sleepless for about 48 hours, I'd Google that. Just too tired man.

Excellent question, but I'm not trying to prove anything. All I'm saying is people, ESPECIALLY Americans, should be able to question this stuff without the backlash. I just don't understand the objection to people QUESTIONING this.
I wish we knew who killed JFK. It was not Lee Harvey Oswald.
And why were they so quick to condemn Sirhan Sirhan for killing Robert Kennedy ? 14 shots were fired in the room that killed him and he was holding an 8 round capacity gun. Do the math on that one.

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Note I said traditional battlefield. Afghanistan is not a traditional battlefield.

But we've still gotten damn good at fighting insurgents, too. We can kick their asses from K-town to J-bad and everywhere in between. They can't run, they can't hide, and they can't fight for long. We dominate the skies and the ground, and, given the chance, can find and defeat anything they come up with to blow us up.

Counter-insurgency is not about killing bad guys, though. It's about winning the people. And some of them still don't like us. Every bad guy has brothers, children, parents, friends. And when we kill the bad guy, some of his friends and family turn against us.

Counter-insurgency is about making the bad guys realize that they're wrong, and that they are fighting against the interests of their own people.
You are a smart, insightful guy. I bet you were a good commander.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:39 PM   #102
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Highly unlikely, considering the way the towers fell. If what you are saying is right, one would assume the bottom of the structure would crumble, and collapse, and the higher levels would fall on top of it. This did not happen.

I think the biggest question I have is that the lobbies were both blown out from explosions. Witnesses said people were actually on fire in the lobby. But the issue I have with that goes two fold. First, for this to happen, the fireball and explosive energy would have to travel the entire elevator shafts which were hermetically sealed. Odd enough thing on its own, but the second part is even more crazy. The second part is that there was no elevator that ran from ground to top of the buildings. It would take 3 transfers to get from floor to roof. So the fire and explosive energy would have to travel down, change elevators TWICE and then blow the lobby, but not the floors directly below the lobby (There were 7 floors that could be reached by elevator below the lobby).

What about that screams "scientific and logic"? Fire decided to go 30 floors down, pause, change direction, and enter a shaft across the way, go another 40 odd floors and blow out the lobby, leaving sub levels 1 through 7 untouched.

If you can explain that, I'll be quiet for the rest of my life. Keep in mind, this was at the moment of first impact, or very close to the moment of impact. The lobby was documented in the Naudet Brothers film first hand once they reached the building. Tiles were thrown off the walls, all the glass was broken, and people were on fire. I have heard a few say it was acoustical energy, or it was "shock waves" but this does not explain the hermetically sealed environment. Basically, if the fire had to change elevators, one would assume that the energy would be expelled at the floor where the change had to happen. You can't say it was either of those two if you account for the change in shafts.

We also know for a fact that the elevators were cable operated and required no channel below for maintenance, as all elevators 12 stories and below are actually lifts using hydraulics, and all 13 and more are cable operated. So there was no shaft below the elevators from the top going to ground level.

This is something that was never brought up before I asked the question, and I still have no answer.
Alright I didn't know there were people in the lobby that were on fire. I was speaking from a structural standpoint of the "sound" of explosions. As for why people were on fire in the lobby? I have no idea. Maybe the impact from the airplane started an electrical fire in the lower level? God only knows. But what you were saying about the lower levels crumbling if it were due to dynamics and material deformation would remain true even if there was an explosion due to explosives. An explosion at the lower level to an already weak structure would also crumble which means that the structure would in a sense drop and the rest would come down which I am pretty sure never happened.

Honestly I hate speculating over something that is 11 years old and other than it being of piece of my history I am only going to use it as an example on how to make buildings more structurally sound if something like this were to occur again.

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Old 05-07-2012, 11:46 PM   #103
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so uhhh...
whens gas prices gonna go down?
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:58 PM   #104
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But really, what do they gain? What does ANY extremist gain by that? You just poke the world's deadliest hornet's nest, and those hornets will pursue you to the ends of the earth. So unless you have a spaceship...

BTW, the reason I'm posting here is because your government has a history of setting up stuff like this. Once you start reading up on Operation Northwoods and stuff like that, it's hard NOT to suspect that something else was going on there on 9/11.
Put yourself in the shoes (sandals?) of the extremists you're referring to. You decide you need to take some action against the US for a variety of reasons (see previous WTC attack, USS Cole, etc).

Think about where you are, how many people you have, what resources you have access to, and what you're trying to accomplish. You're certainly not going to buy tanks and helicopters and challenge the US militarily on a traditional battlefield (see Nova's comments above). In addition think about the extremist mentality, suicide bombers, human shields, etc. What are your options for taking action?

While the 9/11 attacks were very inefficient as far as killing people and not all that great as far as causing economic damage, they did create a huge spectacle with a massive emotional impact.

I am not saying that the attacks did or didn't happen a certain way. All I'm saying is that discounting the possibility that they were carried out by al Queda for the reasons you're proposing doesn't make sense. In fact, the opposite rings more true.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:59 PM   #105
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Alright I didn't know there were people in the lobby that were on fire. I was speaking from a structural standpoint of the "sound" of explosions. As for why people were on fire in the lobby? I have no idea. Maybe the impact from the airplane started an electrical fire in the lower level? God only knows. But what you were saying about the lower levels crumbling if it were due to dynamics and material deformation would remain true even if there was an explosion due to explosives. An explosion at the lower level to an already weak structure would also crumble which means that the structure would in a sense drop and the rest would come down which I am pretty sure never happened.

Honestly I hate speculating over something that is 11 years old and other than it being of piece of my history I am only going to use it as an example on how to make buildings more structurally sound if something like this were to occur again.
Yea, check out the Naudet Bros documentary. They have the only footage from inside, right after the plane struck. It is incredible.
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:29 AM   #106
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:47 AM   #107
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I have an inkling we are going to be missing a bunch of E46 members shortly....
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:35 AM   #108
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You understand that al qaeda is not full of peace-loving hippies that just want everyone to get along right? and that, at the ideological organizational level, they are not content with sitting back and allowing what they perceive to be evil to go unchallenged. It's not like they went from small town mountain thugs to world terrorists overnight. The leaders of that organization had, and have, the hatred and conviction in them to carry out the mass murder of people that they see as evil. Which is, realistically, anyone the western world, or anyone that reflects those ideas.

Read Zawahiri's book if you want to see just how far out there some of them are.
Thank you. Tired of people speaking as if this was some group that had been living in caves the decade prior and whose greatest financial asset was a chalkboard they had saved up for months to acquire.
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:43 AM   #109
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Old 06-26-2012, 05:07 AM   #110
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Old 06-26-2012, 05:09 AM   #111
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gwb's reaction says it all
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:18 AM   #112
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Thank you. Tired of people speaking as if this was some group that had been living in caves the decade prior and whose greatest financial asset was a chalkboard they had saved up for months to acquire.
Nailed it. (Need to read book tho from what others say too) but to even think that you can understand some leaders mind and the way they operate is just not fathomable to probably most if not all of us (meaning this board).

The kill their own family just to....well just because.

I mean when N Korea Kim-Jung ?? died. His son didn't like the other's that were still left in charge. Here ya the president appoints his own cabinet; he just set up car bombs and accidents to rid them.


NUTS....also any seen that movie The Devil's Double. There pretty spot on....sad but true. Good film though
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:24 AM   #113
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It was for more than oil
this.
Create fear in the people and make them think that the government must take care of them. Make the government have ultimate power to "protect" people from themselves and others thus controlling the population. Give us reasons to go to war, thus growing our already massive military industrial complex. It's all about a very "select few" gaining even more wealth and extending their already unimaginable influence and power even further. Doubt they care about the lives of any person whether their a US citizen, American soldier, or anyone for that matter. Now of course I have no tangible hard evidence to significantly substantiate these claims but it honestly makes the most sense to me and fills in a lot of unanswered questions and unexplained scenarios.

LOL you guys should look into why we wanted Gaddafi dead so bad

edit- lmao at people claiming it was for a bill in gold. Thats peanuts to these people.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:34 AM   #114
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Loose Change
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:37 AM   #115
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GO WATCH ETHOS.......and maybe some philosophy classes to get your mind able to think outside the box
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:40 AM   #116
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Loose Change[/b]
Has been debunked by popular mechanics and various engineers worldwide. My structural analysis professor even took the time to explain to us why the towers fell, and this was a good 7 years after it happened.
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GO WATCH ETHOS.......and maybe some philosophy classes to get your mind able to think outside the box[/B]
Believing conspiracy theories ≠ thinking outside of the box. Just because you ascribe to a belief that is contrary to popular opinion does not make you more open to ideas, it simply means that your beliefs fall within the minority.

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Old 06-26-2012, 11:52 AM   #117
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you see how they're fighting just to freak everyone out and raise oil prices? what we need to do is have a nationwide campaign to cut oil use AND release the reserves. that should get oil down to $55

knowing how those guys spend money like water (cars, palaces, skyscrapers nobody needs)... i bet they are spread REALLY THIN. we can have them turbans in hand in no-time.

also, i think the metal in nickels are worth more than face value.

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Old 06-26-2012, 11:53 AM   #118
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Either way, we are all controlled by the government and there is nothing we can do to stop it..... Thoughts?
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:58 AM   #119
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Either way, we are all controlled by the government and there is nothing we can do to stop it..... Thoughts?
Move.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:59 AM   #120
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We all know it was inside job.
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