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Old 02-27-2016, 03:56 PM   #1
jair24611
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Need an E46 Veteran's Quick Analysis of Summary of Rough Symptoms

Alright, I've put in hours of research on different causes of the Lean codes (P0171/P0174) and the Engine not running 100%. I've also done troubleshooting for most of it, and now I hope to present all the clues that I've found to someone who has spent a lot of time with E46s and who might be able to tell me what it is that I haven't thought of...

VEH INFO: '03 Stock 330i 135k 6spd, very good condition but did not have all it's maintenance done by PO


STORY (Quick summarize of a lot of detail...):

After checking compression (all good) and fixing a very bad misfire, with new plugs, I noticed a general lack of power, especially in the 2500 - 3000 range ("2800 stutter club). All this has been during winter in MD, so pretty cold. Ab few weeks later, the power loss was more noticeable and the SES light came on from the P0171/P0174 codes.

Used the Bluetooth OBDII Bluelink scanner to quickly check the O2's and MAF readings..Looked good. I then home-tested the CCV- (Put a piece of paper over the oil fill and saw a decent amount of suction - (vacuum in the valve cover))..figured that meant the CCV was working well enough.

So, guessed vacuum leak, ran smoke test, and found culprits : DISA O-Ring and Lower Intake boot. Replaced both, and felt/looked around at the condition of the other CCV lines while in there. All seemed good. Smoke tested again...No external leaks, this time.

After fixing the two leaks, the car felt alive again...regained its missing power. Ran OBDII Scan again, and the lean codes still showed as "pending/confirmed" ... Cleared the codes...they came back. Had them cleared by a BMW tool, they came back... car still felt good though. Gas economy improved slightly to a decent rating (~27 mpg hwy).

Two weeks go by, and I start to notice a slight drop in power again. ..a more subtle but general loss of power (at wider RPM points) this time, and the noticeable stutter right around 2800 rpms shows up, once in a while too. Also, the fuel efficiency has dropped to $hi* (~20mpg - mixed/but mostly hwy). P0171&P0174 still there. Smoke test again, still no external leaks.

A few weeks later, it warms up one day, and I run my normal OBDII scan. Poof! the codes are gone. And, although the power is still not all there, I notice the fuel efficiency at cruising speeds and slow acceleration has improved. So whatever happened, helped a little bit, but the power is still not all there.

So, I'm trying to figure out the culprit?.......................

POINTS:

-The MAF, O2's, DISA, and vacuum lines are all good.

-I have noticed a slight hissing sound right below the DISA, but don't think its a problem - no smoke at test and heard others mention this commonly.

-The CCV home test, checking the valve cover for vacuum indicates that the CCV is working decently, from what I understand. (Although, I do think the CCV will be replaced next if nothing else stands out.) Might the warm weather have improved the CCV diaphram/valve?

-When Idling for a little while, there seems to be a small pulse every so often. ..and it is not related to the electric cooling fan kicking on.

-The Vanos Seals could be worn, but not badly. There's no death-rattle or other noise coming from it. And no real way to check the VANOS' efficiency, directly, that I know of, but engine oil is good and was changed regularly.

-When under load, I can hear a sort of "CHORRRTLE" noise from the middle of the firewall area. Also when cruising and gently getting into the throttle, can hear/feel the noise near the pedal area/firewall.

-Think the CATs are fine.

-Intake gasket?

-EGR?

I don't know, please help!!!
Thanks !
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Old 02-28-2016, 08:30 AM   #2
markusmarkus
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Have the intake smoke tested. The P0174 code is a classic indicator of a vacuum leak. The lack of power until ~3000rpm indicates the VANOS needs to be overhauled with the kit from Beisan.
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Old 02-28-2016, 09:53 AM   #3
jair24611
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Markus-

After I fixed the lower intake boot and DISA O-Ring, the smoke test showed no external, intake leaks. I actually already have the VANOS seal replacement kit (another ebay seller with similar specs to Beisan), and I'll do that, after I run out of other things to test/change.

Today, I'm going to run fuel a pressure test, in case it's pump, filter, or fuel system related. Some also mentioned the SAP system, which I hadn't though of, so will quickly look through that, after.

By the way, I was doubtful of the VANOS seals being the cause, since the car ran blissfully for a couple days after I fixed the vacuum leaks. Was thinking in rough logic that an oil seal wouldn't deteriorate in that time-frame just because the car was running better (slightly higher oil pressure and faster accerlation).
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Old 02-28-2016, 11:52 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jair24611 View Post
Markus-

After I fixed the lower intake boot and DISA O-Ring, the smoke test showed no external, intake leaks. I actually already have the VANOS seal replacement kit (another ebay seller with similar specs to Beisan), and I'll do that, after I run out of other things to test/change.

Today, I'm going to run fuel a pressure test, in case it's pump, filter, or fuel system related. Some also mentioned the SAP system, which I hadn't though of, so will quickly look through that, after.

By the way, I was doubtful of the VANOS seals being the cause, since the car ran blissfully for a couple days after I fixed the vacuum leaks. Was thinking in rough logic that an oil seal wouldn't deteriorate in that time-frame just because the car was running better (slightly higher oil pressure and faster accerlation).
Frankly I wouldn't bother with a fuel pressure test at 135k miles. Just replace it.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...=929501&page=4
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Old 02-28-2016, 12:07 PM   #5
swordsman11868
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Jair-
What did you replace the DISA o-ring with?

Also, your Vanos seals are most likely shot i.e. They let oil slip past and are not doing what they were designed to do. And the Valve cover gasket is well on its way to being brittle.

I still think vacuum leak. Any mayo in the oil filler cap or in the CCV tube where it attaches to the VCG?
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Old 02-28-2016, 01:02 PM   #6
Yewzer B Lewzer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvx5832 View Post
frankly i wouldn't bother with a fuel pressure test at 135k miles. Just replace it.



http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...=929501&page=4

+1
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Old 02-28-2016, 01:25 PM   #7
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I am thinking fuel issues or possibly brake booster. That may account for the woosh sound near the firewall and also is not seen during smoke test.
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Old 02-28-2016, 08:51 PM   #8
jair24611
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Swordsman - On DISA - I cleaned out all the orange junk and used the correct, BLUE O-ring. -You are probably right about the VANOS. Will try to get to it the seals in the next couple of weekends. -No usual build-up under the oil-fill cap, except a month ago, when it was really cold, did have some of the yellow gunk. Read that can be normal with short drives in cold weather, and as suggested a longer spirited drive, cleared it up. It's gone now. Do you think it showing up indicates the CCV? -PO replaced the VC gasket.

Franz- Thanks for the mention of the brake booster..don't know what goes wrong with it, so will look into that.

....................

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvx5832 View Post
Frankly I wouldn't bother with a fuel pressure test at 135k miles. Just replace it.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...=929501&page=4

...Alright CVX and Yezwer...you high and mighties ... maybe I'm not a "proper Bimr owner" and maybe the fuel pump probably should be replaced, but even if I was definitely going to replace it, I'd test the pressure, first, to see what the current one was doing. ...Easy to find tool, and only takes about 5 mins to do.

..Speaking of which, results of my teste were:
-Pump primed at around 42psi, and leaked down to about 36psi after being left alone for 5 mins --can't isolate anything specific from that..pump, injctrs, valve.
-At idle, it read a constant 50psi, so that seems pretty normal.
-However, during revving, it did not move noticeably from 50psi. ...don't think that's normal.. it's supposed to increase right?

Appreciate all the chiming in
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Old 02-29-2016, 08:16 AM   #9
Yewzer B Lewzer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jair24611 View Post
Swordsman - On DISA - I cleaned out all the orange junk and used the correct, BLUE O-ring. -You are probably right about the VANOS. Will try to get to it the seals in the next couple of weekends. -No usual build-up under the oil-fill cap, except a month ago, when it was really cold, did have some of the yellow gunk. Read that can be normal with short drives in cold weather, and as suggested a longer spirited drive, cleared it up. It's gone now. Do you think it showing up indicates the CCV? -PO replaced the VC gasket.



Franz- Thanks for the mention of the brake booster..don't know what goes wrong with it, so will look into that.



....................









...Alright CVX and Yezwer...you high and mighties ... maybe I'm not a "proper Bimr owner" and maybe the fuel pump probably should be replaced, but even if I was definitely going to replace it, I'd test the pressure, first, to see what the current one was doing. ...Easy to find tool, and only takes about 5 mins to do.



..Speaking of which, results of my teste were:

-Pump primed at around 42psi, and leaked down to about 36psi after being left alone for 5 mins --can't isolate anything specific from that..pump, injctrs, valve.

-At idle, it read a constant 50psi, so that seems pretty normal.

-However, during revving, it did not move noticeably from 50psi. ...don't think that's normal.. it's supposed to increase right?



Appreciate all the chiming in

Ok fair enough, just throwing parts at it isn't the answer, however if that is the original FP you are on borrowed time.

Do your lean codes come back at idle or under load?
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Old 02-29-2016, 07:46 PM   #10
jair24611
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Yeah, I hear you. Pretty sure it is the original.

The lean codes didn't go away for months, and then on the recent warm day, the went away and have not come back.

What do you think the PSI leaking out, after the fuel pump primed and the fuel pressure not increasing from 50 between idle and being revved means? Theoretically, it could be injector, valve, or pump/regulator related, right?

Last edited by jair24611; 02-29-2016 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:24 PM   #11
jair24611
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I just realized that, at the beginning of all this, I compression tested the engine and forgot to remove the DME relay when doing so. Right after, I got a weird crank position sensor code that went away shortly after.. Then the Lean codes started to show up. Did actually have a vacuum leak, but I'm curious if the DME might have something to do with all this. I know it's a crapshoot with all the different systems, but anyone think the DME could be a factor?
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:41 PM   #12
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jair24611, Sorry to say it this way, but no other way to put it.

So much wrong with some of your approach here.

Until you can PROVIDE data, you are spinning your wheels and wasting our time.

We need OBDII codes, Freeze Frame info, Data Logs.

You state things like you "believe, think, know" the MAF, O2 sensors and catalytic converters are good. What leads you to these conclusions? What facts do you have about these?

We also need to know what the exact build month and year this car is or understand if the car has a 5 wire MAF and Wideband O2 sensors. Is this car a ZHP as it is a 330 with a 6 speed. Details are really key here.

Do not know the BlueDriver tool, but I do know OBDFusion. You may need to get OBDFusion if BlueDriver cannot properly Log.

We need data Logs in .CSV format that are taken in at least 1 second intervals.

All you need to do is read up on any things that has my user name associated with it.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 03-01-2016 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 03-01-2016, 11:51 PM   #13
jair24611
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Yeah, so many theories and tests I've done. Definitely spinning wheels. I'm going to replace a couple things to get to a more concise point for posting. Thanks for the feedback
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Old 03-02-2016, 09:30 AM   #14
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You want OBDFusion and need to learn to Log with it. Driveability issues are not that hard.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 03-19-2016, 03:22 PM   #15
swordsman11868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jair24611 View Post
Swordsman - On DISA - I cleaned out all the orange junk and used the correct, BLUE O-ring. -You are probably right about the VANOS. Will try to get to it the seals in the next couple of weekends. -No usual build-up under the oil-fill cap, except a month ago, when it was really cold, did have some of the yellow gunk. Read that can be normal with short drives in cold weather, and as suggested a longer spirited drive, cleared it up. It's gone now. Do you think it showing up indicates the CCV? -PO replaced the VC gasket.

Franz- Thanks for the mention of the brake booster..don't know what goes wrong with it, so will look into that.

....................




...Alright CVX and Yezwer...you high and mighties ... maybe I'm not a "proper Bimr owner" and maybe the fuel pump probably should be replaced, but even if I was definitely going to replace it, I'd test the pressure, first, to see what the current one was doing. ...Easy to find tool, and only takes about 5 mins to do.

..Speaking of which, results of my teste were:
-Pump primed at around 42psi, and leaked down to about 36psi after being left alone for 5 mins --can't isolate anything specific from that..pump, injctrs, valve.
-At idle, it read a constant 50psi, so that seems pretty normal.
-However, during revving, it did not move noticeably from 50psi. ...don't think that's normal.. it's supposed to increase right?

Appreciate all the chiming in
For mayo in the winter, I would change the oil to get rid of the moisture in it. Unless you can take longer drives to burn it off. When you do change the oil, add some LiquiMoly engine flush to the oil and idle for 10 mins. Then perform the oil/filter change.

Here's what Bentley says for fuel line pressure: Ch. 160 verse 13 - System pressure: 50.76 +/- 2.9 psi. Residual pressure: >43.51 psi.

HtH
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Old 03-31-2016, 01:23 AM   #16
jair24611
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Update on OP's Power Loss/Lean Diagnosis:

OP's UPDATE:
Two weeks ago, I worked with a BMW tech on his off day. Local guys worked BMRs in Germany and US for 18 yrs, knows his stuff. We looked at some things and found the below. ..And uploading a couple live diagnostic runs for more data..

Using the BMW ICOM Diagnostic Scanner:

-Checked for any codes - found 1: The DME showed an error. No other codes.

-DME had not been updated since build back in '03. Flashed (reprogrammed) DME: Upgraded firmware to 7561514

-Started car:
--idles fine, consistent around 700 rpm. No change from preflash.
--MAF (cleaned recently) is reading a little low 11.4kg/h, slightly above low threshold for acceptable range
--O2's changing together. Fronts good and consistent. Post cat's jump from .76 to .82 to .48 to .01 volts. Weird but inconclusive.
--Timing and Vanos are working properly. Didnt catch the numbers but he was satisfied it wasnt VANOS.
--Bank 2 is running lean. After revving, 1st and 2nd Short term mix would increase to 13% or so. Then when dropping down to idle 1st would read 6.3% while 2nd bank would drop to 0%. Then after dropping to idle 1st 3.4% and 2nd -3.1%.
--He said not CATS. And not CCV or idle would be running differently.
--He asked about the smoke test, which I did through the intake boot and found no external vacuum leaks. He said I should smoke test through the engine oil fill hole, but does that make a difference from what I did? When smoked from through the intake, smoke was coming out of the fill hole.

I should have reported immediately cause now I can't remember if there was anything else, but these were the key points. I had just gotten the injectors checked and cleaned, and spark plugs looked okay, so he said just drive it and see if anything changes.

Since then gas economy has continued to get worse. Overall power feels weaker...

I compression tested.. all cylinders holding good pressure between 185 and 195. I know the DISA is working properly. Fuel pressure is good at 50psi +2. One thing I did notice is under the hood and sometimes in the cabin it smells like burnt coolant every once in a while. I also notice very light wisps of smoke coming from the back of the engine right by the firewall...dead center beneath the cabin air filter area.

Not sure what to check now... SAP?? VCG for some leak that didn't show up with the smoke test? Possible coolant leak?

The files I've uploaded show O2's, rpms, time, short term fuel mix, timing advance... And since I did these readings, along with the worse gas mileage, the rear O2's hit the 0 voltage number more often.

Please help if you can!
Thanks -Jai
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Old 03-31-2016, 01:32 AM   #17
swordsman11868
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"One thing I did notice is under the hood and sometimes in the cabin it smells like burnt coolant every once in a while. I also notice very light wisps of smoke..."

Leaking heater core or hoses?
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Old 03-31-2016, 01:34 AM   #18
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For reference here are my 02s:
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Old 03-31-2016, 01:54 AM   #19
dslboomer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jair24611 View Post
OP's UPDATE:
Two weeks ago, I worked with a BMW tech on his off day. Local guys worked BMRs in Germany and US for 18 yrs, knows his stuff. We looked at some things and found the below. ..And uploading a couple live diagnostic runs for more data..

Using the BMW ICOM Diagnostic Scanner:

Please help if you can!
Thanks -Jai
You didn't listen to jfoj and spent so much time and effort.
Cheap $5 smart phone app like Torque pro or OBD Fusion and a $10 buletooth scanner will be sufficient for diagnosis.

Long term fuel trims are must for fuel code problem.

Anyway, the last picture on MAF value around 3.1 g/s at idle is too low for 3.0 liter engine. New MAF for 3.0 liter is around 3.7, and your value is off by -16%

Last edited by dslboomer; 03-31-2016 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 03-31-2016, 08:35 AM   #20
mr ilia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swordsman11868 View Post
For reference here are my 02s:
Attachment 628171
What app is that?
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1998 BMW 323i coupe - Lazurblau
2004 BMW 325ci - Sapphire Black
1991 BMW 318i sedan - Lazurblau
2001 BMW 330i sedan (Auto) - Japanrot

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