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Old 10-15-2012, 10:21 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by AfghanScarface View Post
Any more affidavits from the other riders?
All the info is here, http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

click on "Appendices and supporting material"

I suggest

Christian Vande Velde
Levi Leipheimer
Tom Danielson
Betsy Andreu
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:48 AM   #82
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Cyclist Lance Armstrong was part of "the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen," the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency said Wednesday in releasing more than 1,000 pages of evidence in the case.

The evidence involving the U.S. Postal Service-sponsored cycling team encompasses "direct documentary evidence including financial payments, e-mails, scientific data and laboratory test results that further prove the use, possession and distribution of performance-enhancing drugs by Lance Armstrong," the agency said.

Armstrong lawyer Tim Herman dismissed what he called a "one-sided hatchet job" and a "government-funded witch hunt" against the seven-time Tour de France winner, who has consistently denied doping accusations.

But the USADA said 11 riders came forward to acknowledge their use of banned performance-enhancing drugs while on the team. Among them is George Hincapie, Armstrong's close teammate during his winning Tour de France runs.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:05 AM   #83
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http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olympi...0602--oly.html
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:03 PM   #84
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I think the whole thing is a bunch of ****. I believe every one of these champion riders does it and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Somehow Lance still outperformed them all for several years in a row. There's something to be said for that. This whole thing reminds me of Harrison Bergeron in a roundabout way.
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:40 PM   #85
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I think the whole thing is a bunch of ****. I believe every one of these champion riders does it and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Somehow Lance still outperformed them all for several years in a row. There's something to be said for that. This whole thing reminds me of Harrison Bergeron in a roundabout way.
Look at the bright side. At least all of the athletes who use performance enhancing drugs are off Nike's payroll now...right?
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I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:19 AM   #86
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Interesting that the court of public opinion doesn't seem to be nearly as cutthroat as it was towards Barry bonds.

Wonder why?

Hmm..

What is the difference

Interesting some of u guys condone cheating.

So if many people do it it's okay? Lol

Okay so u wouldn't mind ur wives cheating on u since so many do.

It's okay!
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:11 AM   #87
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Interesting that the court of public opinion doesn't seem to be nearly as cutthroat as it was towards Barry bonds.

Wonder why?

Hmm..

What is the difference

Interesting some of u guys condone cheating.

So if many people do it it's okay? Lol

Okay so u wouldn't mind ur wives cheating on u since so many do.

It's okay!
isn't it obvious why? Lance didn't break a record that was known by almost every single sports fan in the world.

Comparing wives cheating to athletes perfecting their bodily performance is laughable.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:04 AM   #88
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Interesting that the court of public opinion doesn't seem to be nearly as cutthroat as it was towards Barry bonds.

Wonder why?

Hmm..

What is the difference

Interesting some of u guys condone cheating.

So if many people do it it's okay? Lol

Okay so u wouldn't mind ur wives cheating on u since so many do.

It's okay!
One is a solemn vow to another person.

The other is a person using one of the available resources to get a competitive advantage. I love how people think that a small syringe with some liquid is unnatural...but sleeping in a cocoon with an airtight seal that forces your body to believe its floating above Denver is perfectly acceptable.
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I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:12 AM   #89
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One is a solemn vow to another person.

The other is a person using one of the available resources to get a competitive advantage. I love how people think that a small syringe with some liquid is unnatural...but sleeping in a cocoon with an airtight seal that forces your body to believe its floating above Denver is perfectly acceptable.
great point on the subject as usual. It doesn't make any sense. There are other technologies in sports that are giving the players or today an advantage over the players of yesterday.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:49 AM   #90
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I love how people think that a small syringe with some liquid is unnatural...but sleeping in a cocoon with an airtight seal that forces your body to believe its floating above Denver is perfectly acceptable.

well one of the biggest reasons is that sleeping in an altitude tent won't cause you to die in the middle of the night, you can't say the same for drugs like epo
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:42 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Born Again View Post
Interesting that the court of public opinion doesn't seem to be nearly as cutthroat as it was towards Barry bonds.

Wonder why?

Hmm..

What is the difference

Interesting some of u guys condone cheating.

So if many people do it it's okay? Lol

Okay so u wouldn't mind ur wives cheating on u since so many do.

It's okay!
In the US, baseball is a slightly bigger sport than cycling. As Solly indicated, there are a lot more people who care very deeply about home run records than people who care about who wins the TdF.

While Lance is certainly well known, I would venture to say that the public's interest level in Bonds, esp during his HR chases was much higher. Taking it one step further, there's no comparison in public interest/recognition of other involved athletes. Bonds has McGwire, Giambi, Canseco and Clemens. Take the list of riders names associated with Lance and see how many average Joes in the US recognize any of them. Go to Europe and that may be reversed.

Plus, Bonds has been convicted in a court on a charge related to PED usage. Lance has been thoroughly investigated and not charged. Lance has been stripped of his titles, afaik MLB hasn't stripped Bonds of any of his records.

And your wife-cheating analogy is just A better analogy would be to ask how harshly you'd judge a wife that cheated on her husband if you knew that the husband was concurrently cheating on her. It doesn't mean you approve of the wife, it just makes you kinda throw your hands up and shake your head about the whole thing.

The point some are making is that if PED usage is rampant and more the norm than the exception (cough, NFL, cough) what's really the point of keelhauling an individual that is caught using? Esp with cycling, there's this cynicism that when you strip one guy of his win and hand it to the runner-up, he was probably cheating, too. And the third and fourth place finishers probably were, as well.

The system be what it be, and one can only hope that they're doing the best they can. But when so many top riders are cheaters, it does get to a point where it seems futile.

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well one of the biggest reasons is that sleeping in an altitude tent won't cause you to die in the middle of the night, you can't say the same for drugs like epo
You can't say with absolute certainty that every person can use an altitude tent with 0 chance of harm (embolism much?). While its highly unlikely, there are many PEDs that (when used "correctly") have fairly low risks as well.

I can't speak for dwass325, but I think what he's getting at is that nothing is absolutely safe, nothing is absolutely dangerous, and defining what's "natural" gets a little fuzzy at times.

Classic blood doping is 100% natural. What can be more natural than using your own hemoglobin? Sleeping in a tent that creates similar results without needles? If needles are bad, are vaccinations cheating? They keep you from getting sick, but shouldn't an athlete's immune system be left in it's "natural" state?

An athlete might ingest clenbuterol by eating meat from a treated animal. Another athlete might take clenbuterol because they're asthmatic. A third might take it specifically to get better. Who's unnatural? Who's the cheater?

I'm not saying that sports should be anything-goes. And PED discussions sometimes sound exactly like marijuana discussions with the users /sympathizers blindly defending them and the critics blindly attacking them. But just because someone wants to discuss changing the status quo doesn't necessarily mean they're just a roid monkey desperate to feel validated, nor does it mean they've got a better plan than what's currently in place.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:54 PM   #92
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well one of the biggest reasons is that sleeping in an altitude tent won't cause you to die in the middle of the night, you can't say the same for drugs like epo
Don't pretend the issue is safety. Do you think riding in a large group of bicyclists on public roads with cars going by while you push your body well into single digit bodyfat levels and have to have your vitals checked by a team doctor every single night is healthy or safe? No.

This is a discussion about performance advantages - not safety.
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I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:12 PM   #93
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so many other issues to this, here is a short list.

Coach Bryneel (sp) still has a case coming - he is SO fukked. pretty sure it's to late to settle.

USPS - were they lied to. i.e. defraud.

multiple defamation lawsuits filed and won by Lance and team for doping allegations (newspapers and individuals.) Does he owe those winnings back.

the saying 'who's the man' - lost forever hopefully. its something we enjoyed as a family for 10+ years and now its just crap.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:13 PM   #94
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I can honestly say that because of Griffin, i am desensitized to alot of wierd stuff!
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:18 PM   #95
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Don't pretend the issue is safety. Do you think riding in a large group of bicyclists on public roads with cars going by while you push your body well into single digit bodyfat levels and have to have your vitals checked by a team doctor every single night is healthy or safe? No.

This is a discussion about performance advantages - not safety.
those comparisons are pretty weak. Not sure when the discussion turned to performance advantages only, when one of the biggest reasons for opposing doping is exactly the health reasons and being "forced" to put one's own life at risk unnecessarily. Riding on the roads is a given, doing drugs isn't (shouldn't).

In fact, the biggest reason why the doping controls, controversy is where it is today in cycling was because of a rider that blew the whistle on a slew of people after passing out nearing the end of a race. That's what blew the whole thing apart, wasn't some guy complaining that someone else had an unfair advantage.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:38 PM   #96
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those comparisons are pretty weak. Not sure when the discussion turned to performance advantages only, when one of the biggest reasons for opposing doping is exactly the health reasons and being "forced" to put one's own life at risk unnecessarily. Riding on the roads is a given, doing drugs isn't (shouldn't).

In fact, the biggest reason why the doping controls, controversy is where it is today in cycling was because of a rider that blew the whistle on a slew of people after passing out nearing the end of a race. That's what blew the whole thing apart, wasn't some guy complaining that someone else had an unfair advantage.
Your argument holds no water if only for the fact that every discussion has been about lance cheating - not about lance doing dangerous drugs.
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Originally Posted by jacques chirac View Post
I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing

Last edited by dwass325; 10-22-2012 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:44 PM   #97
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Awesome episode just last week.

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Old 10-22-2012, 05:02 PM   #98
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Your argument holds no water if only for the fact that every discussion has been about lance cheating - not about lance doing dangerous drugs.
But the risk is the underlying issue. The reason it's cheating is that the substances/practices are banned. A huge reason they're banned is that they're dangerous.

First and foremost are the short and long term health issues with usage of a lot of these substances.

Second is the concern that an athletic competition will turn into an arms race where the winner will be whoever is willing to subject themselves to the greatest quantity of substances.

Let's face it, if PEDs were as risky as Gatorade, the discussion would be entirely different.
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As a juror, do you think the trial was a publicity stunt?

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Old 10-22-2012, 05:30 PM   #99
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But the risk is the underlying issue. The reason it's cheating is that the substances/practices are banned. A huge reason they're banned is that they're dangerous.

First and foremost are the short and long term health issues with usage of a lot of these substances.

Second is the concern that an athletic competition will turn into an arms race where the winner will be whoever is willing to subject themselves to the greatest quantity of substances.

Let's face it, if PEDs were as risky as Gatorade, the discussion would be entirely different.
I don't buy for one second that its about athletes health. Remember, we are talking about titles in a competition where helmets weren't required until 1995. Many PEDs, while riskier than Gatorade, are no riskier than, say, riding a bicycle 2,000 miles in 21 days.

Twenty-nine cyclists have been killed while participating in the sport since 1990. Are you really going to tell me that an organization that lets this happen is really doing their athletes a favor by not letting them use a little syringe with some stuff that'll increase their red blood cell count?

For anybody who suggests EPO is more dangerous than cycling itself, show me the bodies. I'll give you a hint: none. At best, there have been "theories" that a couple people died from it. By the statistics, cycling itself should be banned - assuming we're primarily concerned with athlete safety.

Lastly, look at the history of PEDs in the US. It did not become a hot button issue until we lost competitive advantage. Nobody died, nobody went to the hospital, there was no health epidemic that lead to PEDs being made illegal.
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Originally Posted by jacques chirac View Post
I don't see what is ridiculous by robbing with a sword.A sword in one od the most lethal wepon !!!

It's more easy to kill with a sword than with a gun.

A sword is more frightening than toy-looking gun like glock.

robbing with a sword is a good thing
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:05 PM   #100
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I don't buy for one second that its about athletes health. Remember, we are talking about titles in a competition where helmets weren't required until 1995. Many PEDs, while riskier than Gatorade, are no riskier than, say, riding a bicycle 2,000 miles in 21 days.

Twenty-nine cyclists have been killed while participating in the sport since 1990. Are you really going to tell me that an organization that lets this happen is really doing their athletes a favor by not letting them use a little syringe with some stuff that'll increase their red blood cell count?

For anybody who suggests EPO is more dangerous than cycling itself, show me the bodies. I'll give you a hint: none. At best, there have been "theories" that a couple people died from it. By the statistics, cycling itself should be banned - assuming we're primarily concerned with athlete safety.

Lastly, look at the history of PEDs in the US. It did not become a hot button issue until we lost competitive advantage. Nobody died, nobody went to the hospital, there was no health epidemic that lead to PEDs being made illegal.
C'mon man, you're smarter than this.

Clearly you're a fan of PEDs, maybe even a user. I'm fine with that, I won't sweat you for it.

But you're being really disingenuous with this post, especially "an organization that lets this happen". Why hadn't the NFL done more to prevent concussions until the last few years? Why didn't auto racing require HANS devices before Dale Sr died? I remember seeing NHL players in the 80s without helmets. Why aren't MLB pitchers required to wear helmets? Why hasn't ALMS done more to slow the cars down? Why aren't all boxers and MMA fighters required to wear headrear protection? Right now we could look at any sport and say "there's more they can do to increase safety".

Spending an entire career (15+ years) training for and competing in the event IS dangerous already, but riding 2,000 miles in 21 days is the freakin point of the freakin event. Having all these guys holding a PED competition all throughout those 15+ years adds a game of chemical brinkmanship that increases the risk without adding anything of value to the sport.

PEDs are banned for several reasons, but pretending like the underlying issue isn't the health risks is just naive.
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