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Old 08-26-2012, 05:17 AM   #1
PEI330Ci
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Turbo oil drain sumps

I'd rather not drag the other thread any further off topic; Tom's build is rather impressive and should remain the focus.

Here's an OEM example of an oil drain sump:

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Old 08-26-2012, 08:15 AM   #2
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Yes. Nice move to start a new thread. Thank you.

HPF chose not to use a sump for their kits why? I suppose because historically a sump has not been shown to be needed except in some isolated cases?
AFAIK, it is an extremely rare case for an HPF kit to smoke because of not having a sump. Just how many instances of switching to a sump has cured a bad smoking problem? I have heard of only one case so far. Are there more?

Yet there seems to be some benefit to running a sump in addition to a scavenge pump. What is that benefit? I dont see a mad rush of HPF owners converting to a sump type system. Should we be? Wanting a sump, that is.
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Old 08-26-2012, 08:35 AM   #3
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Yes. Nice move to start a new thread. Thank you.

HPF chose not to use a sump for their kits why? I suppose because historically a sump has not been shown to be needed except in some isolated cases?
AFAIK, it is an extremely rare case for an HPF kit to smoke because of not having a sump. Just how many instances of switching to a sump has cured a bad smoking problem? I have heard of only one case so far. Are there more?

Yet there seems to be some benefit to running a sump in addition to a scavenge pump. What is that benefit? I dont see a mad rush of HPF owners converting to a sump type system. Should we be? Wanting a sump, that is.
The biggest benefit that i know of is the ability to run a filter post turbo , so if the turbo takes a crap there's something there to stop it from destroying your internals.
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:09 AM   #4
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Just an FYI, although Tom's car did have a HPF kit on it, the oil return system did not look like the typical HPF oil return system. Tom's kit was NOT originally installed by HPF.
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:27 AM   #5
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:29 AM   #6
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The biggest benefit that i know of is the ability to run a filter post turbo , so if the turbo takes a crap there's something there to stop it from destroying your internals.
Wouldn't the factory oil filter catch any debris?

And if you are going to go through another filter most likely a pump will have to be used thereby the problem with smoking could still exist?
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Old 08-26-2012, 11:17 AM   #7
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Perfect! If you are running a low mount turbo you should have this setup. Just look at factory Porsche turbo motors (or any other OEM that utilizes a low mount turbo), all of them have turbo oil drain sumps!

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Old 08-26-2012, 01:21 PM   #8
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Would be great if anyone from HPF would chime in on this. Do we need it? Is it advisable to add one post install. I can tell you for sure my car is smoking more than normal but I was under the impression that it's due to maybe worn piston rings or other stuff.
Would be good to know if there are any plans for this or if it's worth the add-on for our kits.
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Old 08-26-2012, 01:46 PM   #9
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Wouldn't the factory oil filter catch any debris?

And if you are going to go through another filter most likely a pump will have to be used thereby the problem with smoking could still exist?
Sorry i was thinking of a topmount system, but no having the oil go through a filter post sump shouldnt require a pump.
I dunno how HPF has their setup , but kit's like TT have the turbo drian directly into the oilpan which means debris can score the crank/damage internals if the turbo would implode

If the HPF returns oil to the oil channel pre-filter with a check valve it should be fine but i doubt they to that
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Old 08-26-2012, 01:56 PM   #10
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Perfect! If you are running a low mount turbo you should have this setup. Just look at factory Porsche turbo motors (or any other OEM that utilizes a low mount turbo), all of them have turbo oil drain sumps!
Yes, this was installed on my car while at Saad
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Old 08-26-2012, 02:35 PM   #11
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What's the point of a turbo oil drain sump?
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Old 08-26-2012, 02:57 PM   #12
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Would be great if anyone from HPF would chime in on this. Do we need it?

Do people have smoking issues with HPF kits?? Toms car was a do it your selfer HPF kit so who ever installed it made a few errors on the return system. That is why I added the sump.
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Old 08-26-2012, 04:27 PM   #13
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Would be great if anyone from HPF would chime in on this. Do we need it? Is it advisable to add one post install. I can tell you for sure my car is smoking more than normal but I was under the impression that it's due to maybe worn piston rings or other stuff.
Would be good to know if there are any plans for this or if it's worth the add-on for our kits.
Check your AFR's. I see some turbo cars (more than a few) throw an unhealthy amount of smoke out (usually black) because of improper tune..ie too rich, especially at full boost.

Can the color of a scavenging system caused smoking problem be black, or is it always blue in nature which usually indicates burning oil?

How easy is it to mistake a sump caused smoking problem that may be caused by over fueling instead?

I am thinking bad rings, worn valve guides, can also be mistaken for a scavenging malfunction. Can it be very tricky to pinpoint the source of a smoking problem?

My thoughts on what HPF might say about NEEDING a sump: They have installed well over a hundred bottom mount kits over several years. I would think by now they would be running a sump if it was proved to be absolutley necessary. I do know they have a special kit for the larger turbo and High boost builds:
"E46 M3 Kit w/Bypass Valve Add-on
Recommended for applications running over 17lbs. of boost.

The complete kit includes a Oil scavenge bypass valve that is activated via over-pressurization between the turbocharger outlet and the scavenge pump inlet. Through research we have found that most turbochargers, when ran at high boost levels will leak compressor charge through the shaft seals and into the oil cavity. This causes the drain line to over-pressurize, resulting in unwanted oil consumption. The included bypass valve solves this issue by bleeding off excess pressure back into the oil pan."

I found this youtube video by HPF which seems to indicate that there WAS a scavenging smoking issue at one time.

Video title is "Oil Return Line Pressure Test from Journal Bearing T67 and Oil Scavenge Pump To fix Smoking "

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Old 08-26-2012, 06:50 PM   #14
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Can the color of a scavenging system caused smoking problem be black, or is it always blue in nature which usually indicates burning oil?
Black = fuel
Blue = oil
White = coolant

As usual i could be wrong
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:14 PM   #15
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Surprisingly if the oil gets in the exhaust after the head IE turbo.... it comes out pretty white too! Depending on the amount it can be pretty thick too!
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Old 08-27-2012, 03:16 AM   #16
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Surprisingly if the oil gets in the exhaust after the head IE turbo.... it comes out pretty white too! Depending on the amount it can be pretty thick too!
White! That is good for everyone to know. That makes it easy to rule out over fueling at least. Thank you, Larry.
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:09 AM   #17
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Something else to add in the mix of things. I have noticed running E85 thins out the oil a lot. So much so it gets past the turbo seals after about 2000km's. Just something else to watch out for.
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:21 AM   #18
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Something else to add in the mix of things. I have noticed running E85 thins out the oil a lot. So much so it gets past the turbo seals after about 2000km's. Just something else to watch out for.
You need to change your oil+filter ALOT more often when running E85.

E85 Breaks down the oil alot quicker than gasoline.

I change oil each fall and each spring, cold starts do much more to the oil

Ester based oils are wehat you should be running with E85 since the E85 mixes with that oil, normal oils just form droplets of E85 in them and they was away the protective "shield" that oil creates on bearings and such.

I run Motul 300V in my car(best group 5 oil )
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:57 PM   #19
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You need to change your oil+filter ALOT more often when running E85.

E85 Breaks down the oil alot quicker than gasoline.

I change oil each fall and each spring, cold starts do much more to the oil

Ester based oils are wehat you should be running with E85 since the E85 mixes with that oil, normal oils just form droplets of E85 in them and they was away the protective "shield" that oil creates on bearings and such.

I run Motul 300V in my car(best group 5 oil )

That is an oil for motorcycles is it not? What WEIGHT oil do you run? I dont know. This sounds dangerous to me. Why isnt everyone (E85 turbo builds) running this oil if it is so much better than BMW M3 Castrol. The world is FULL of extremely dedicated professionals who deal with E85 and BMW M3's for a living. Forgive me if I am VERY skeptical hearing this now for the very first time from one lone person.

I did a Google search and I am seeing a lot of posts about ester based oils being the LAST thing you want to use with E85.
also this:

"p.s. I was a motul user until I switched to e85. The motul distributor advised firmly against using their product as it is not compatible."

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...nd-oil-choice/

"However after doing some more research I spoke to The tech advisor of Penrite oil. A local company making product that on paper is at least the equal of anything from anywhere else.
The oil he reccomended for my application was Syn 20, a 20/60 weight oil. His reason was simple, these fuels are brutal on oil and dilution is a major problem, hence the reccomendation for a thicker heavier oil to better deal with the issue.
My experience with the 2 different grades of royal purple have me believe he is correct. I am due an oil change shortly and will be giving the syn 20 a try."



"I don't know for absolute certain whether it causes a problem or not and which oils are ok and which are not based on personal testing or experience/knowledge. But when the Motul rep comes to my shop and asks if we use E85, then tells me we are not to use any Ester based oils, I don't question it, it's not worth the risk. I sent an email to Redline but they didn't respond. I asked around some of the V8 supercar teams we are close to and they all said they hadn't heard a lot but they were looking into it. Everyone knows E85 is new, it could just be a freakout from a couple of failures and they wanted to wait until testing was finished but I am still waiting for anyone of them to tell me it's ok to use. In the meantime i still think better safe than sorry so we'll use the oils from companies who have done the testing and can guarantee their product is ok with it "


http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...e/page__st__20

Two separate instances where Motul TELLS people NEVER to use their ester based oils with E85. Face palm.



"
"This is a fact at up to 10% an ester based oil will work correctly and mix thoroughly, at more than 10% as stated the oil can have an inability to mix thoroughly and can separate out.

Another problem that is known and documented is that ester based oils that's most synthetic oils and synthetic fortified oils can have a reaction with oil seals.
Buna N or nitrile seals react with the esters. As some have mentioned the seals in their engines become softened. The chances are they were running nitrile seals and have used an ester based oil for some period."
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