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Old 05-23-2016, 12:06 PM   #1
NFRs2000nyc
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Rand Paul vs Sanders debate healthcare fundamentals

Sanders and the libs cry about healthcare being a right, while those of us that understand how the world works understand that you don't have a right to another's actions. Healthcare and education isn't a right to all the idiots that claim it is.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...postcount=2334

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Old 05-23-2016, 12:59 PM   #2
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Sanders and the libs cry about healthcare being a right, while those of us that understand how the world works understand that you don't have a right to another's actions. Healthcare and education isn't a right to all the idiots that claim it is.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...postcount=2334

At this point I don't concur with the view that healthcare is a right. However, as with other rights that have been granted over time, starting a useful dialogue as to why it should or should not is useful. (Neither Sander or Paul is doing that.)

I do think we will see passionate discussion about this topic, as perhaps we should. Medical technology has changed the landscape of healthcare over the last 50 years. Just as other technology has changed the landscape of privacy over the last 30 years. These changes are bringing about debate on what rights, if any, should be granted/allowed/protected.

Rational discourse is valid. As for "you don't have a right to another's actions". Slavery would never have been abolished, as it did impact the right of another's actions. In that case, the slave owners right to obtain labor and run their business as they saw fit.
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Old 05-23-2016, 08:24 PM   #3
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"...those of us that understand how the world works"

You owe me a beer. I'll take care of the mouthful that I had which is now all over my monitor.

Thank you for the lulz.
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Old 05-23-2016, 09:27 PM   #4
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"...those of us that understand how the world works"

You owe me a beer. I'll take care of the mouthful that I had which is now all over my monitor.

Thank you for the lulz.
So you believe that you are entitled to someone else's labor/knowledge then?
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Old 05-23-2016, 11:32 PM   #5
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So you believe that you are entitled to someone else's labor/knowledge then?
LOL... nice red herring.

I find it absolutely hysterical that, in your head, you and your old pal Randy know better than everyone. I'm not sure where you get your lofty self opinions from, but I'd wager the place sounds a lot like an echo chamber.

Was our healthcare system ever good? The level of healthcare, sure. But everything else has always been a financial black hole.

Is Obamacare better? Hardly. It was sold as a way to fix affordable healthcare problems and it does everything but fix those problems.

Obviously Sanders has an agenda. It may not be a feasible one for America in this day and age. But surely you can't suggest that pharmaceuticals, medical equipment and insurance rates can gouge the hell out of the system because they own the rights and patents aka "labor/knowledge". Don't try to sell this as an "entitled to the labor of doctors" argument. They are just the face of healthcare. Not the problem. There is a shitload of unnecessary costs and fees associated with getting a basic procedure done. Let alone an emergency.
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:02 AM   #6
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yeah, (over)regulation
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:19 AM   #7
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LOL... nice red herring.

I find it absolutely hysterical that, in your head, you and your old pal Randy know better than everyone. I'm not sure where you get your lofty self opinions from, but I'd wager the place sounds a lot like an echo chamber.

Was our healthcare system ever good? The level of healthcare, sure. But everything else has always been a financial black hole.

Is Obamacare better? Hardly. It was sold as a way to fix affordable healthcare problems and it does everything but fix those problems.

Obviously Sanders has an agenda. It may not be a feasible one for America in this day and age. But surely you can't suggest that pharmaceuticals, medical equipment and insurance rates can gouge the hell out of the system because they own the rights and patents aka "labor/knowledge". Don't try to sell this as an "entitled to the labor of doctors" argument. They are just the face of healthcare. Not the problem. There is a shitload of unnecessary costs and fees associated with getting a basic procedure done. Let alone an emergency.
Im not talking about affordable vs not affordable. Im talking about what people think a RIGHT is......sanders and his followers seem to think that people have a RIGHT to things that someone else must give them.
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:29 AM   #8
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Im not talking about affordable vs not affordable. Im talking about what people think a RIGHT is......sanders and his followers seem to think that people have a RIGHT to things that someone else must give them.
Get over it. Sanders has a point. You and Randy are taking this way to dramatically. Slavery? Cops come knocking? HA! The man deserves a box of Cracker Jacks for that argument. Nobody in the room (expect perhaps that stern woman behind him) took his counter point seriously.
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:59 AM   #9
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:23 PM   #10
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Rand Paul's point is technically correct re slavery. But by advancing that argument, he looks foolish because granting people the "right" (sic) to health care will not come about as he hints - forcing one person to serve another without compensation.

Here is how it will really happen. The government will become the single payer for all or a vast majority of health care in the U.S. The government will then set not only the prices, but also the rules about who can get what care when. They will implement new or additional taxes to cover the cost. Healthcare providers can probably still chose to remain independent (private practice, group practice, etc.) rather than having to work directly for the federal government, but they will be required to conform to the laws and rules set by our wonderfully efficient federal bureaucracy. Providers will still be paid (rather than enslaved, per Rand Paul), but the amount of their earnings will be determined ultimately by the federal government.

I am just thankful that I can afford private/black market care from providers that aren't so keen to become de facto employees of the federal government. The rest of you can enjoy your government healthcare, good and hard.
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Old 05-24-2016, 01:15 PM   #11
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The good news is that the elite and people in government won't have to participate in the single-payer system...that's for you, not them.
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Old 05-24-2016, 04:48 PM   #12
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Rand Paul vs Sanders debate healthcare fundamentals

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The government will become the single payer for all or a vast majority of health care in the U.S. The government will then set not only the prices, but also the rules about who can get what care when. They will implement new or additional taxes to cover the cost.

It "could", although this is the whole "death panel" red herring" we've seen before. They could opt for a system similar to the UK's NHS. The govt provides healthcare to whatever citizens want it...without "death panels". They support more basic health research, are more driven to use/approve medications and treatments. (Often much faster than the US), the support patents on pharmaceuticals without being as held hostage by deep pocket lobbyists. (Ask Pfizer).

And those with means still can use private practice doctors, should they wish to pay for such. If they do, they take on 100% of that cost of private care.

It is not a bad system. Like any system, it has its good and bad points. But, from a practical, day to day, "avg geezer" standpoint, it ain't that bad at making basic healthcare available to all. The NHS has the upside/downside of centralized records retention. So a doc can access your entire medical history if needed. Not a benefit people see in the short term, but, it can have advantages over 20,30,40 years.

And they actually have pretty decent security and privacy controls in place. (The uk having more stringent privacy laws than the US....including HIPPA, IMO)
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:42 PM   #13
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It "could", although this is the whole "death panel" red herring" we've seen before. They could opt for a system similar to the UK's NHS. The govt provides healthcare to whatever citizens want it...without "death panels". They support more basic health research, are more driven to use/approve medications and treatments. (Often much faster than the US), the support patents on pharmaceuticals without being as held hostage by deep pocket lobbyists. (Ask Pfizer).

And those with means still can use private practice doctors, should they wish to pay for such. If they do, they take on 100% of that cost of private care.

It is not a bad system. Like any system, it has its good and bad points. But, from a practical, day to day, "avg geezer" standpoint, it ain't that bad at making basic healthcare available to all. The NHS has the upside/downside of centralized records retention. So a doc can access your entire medical history if needed. Not a benefit people see in the short term, but, it can have advantages over 20,30,40 years.

And they actually have pretty decent security and privacy controls in place. (The uk having more stringent privacy laws than the US....including HIPPA, IMO)
Yup. Has to be a Brit. He knows more about the UK health care system than any non-Brit would know.
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:59 PM   #14
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The good news is that the elite and people in government won't have to participate in the single-payer system...that's for you, not them.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...other-for-you/
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Old 05-24-2016, 10:50 PM   #15
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Always refreshing to hear rand paul speak, so much more coherent and polished than his father. thanks for sharing.
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Old 05-25-2016, 05:49 AM   #16
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Ok. Now what? This doesn't make your or Randy more understanding about "how the world works". It doesn't support Rand's slavery scenario.
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