E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Political Talk

Political Talk
You may discuss anything regarding politics in this forum ONLY. If you cannot respect others opinions, your access to this forum will be removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-16-2011, 04:20 PM   #1
CAG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 50
My Ride: e46 M3 Cabrio & 323i
Fast and Furious... Obama DOJ in deep trouble!

Why are there no threads on the ATF and DOJ screwup in the gun sting gone bad?

Holder and the DOJ are blocking the House committee's subpoenas trying to keep them away from the facts of who did what to get these weapons sold to criminals and drug lords. But new data has surfaced anyway.

From the Wallstreet Journal today...

Quote:
Top Brass Cited in Gun Sting
Emails Show ATF Director Involved in Troubled Operation Tied to Agent's Death.

Lawmakers released documents showing that senior federal officials were closely involved in a troubled gun-enforcement operation that came to light after the death of a U.S. border agent in a shootout in December.

The disclosures came at an emotional House hearing at which family members of the agent testified. Republican lawmakers are pressing to determine how high up knowledge and approval of the program went in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and its parent agency, the Justice Department.

Two assault rifles purchased at a gun store that was part of an ATF probe called Fast and Furious were found at the scene of the Arizona shooting in which the 40-year-old agent, Brian Terry, lost his life. The program was created to monitor weapons purchases by suspected gun traffickers. Agency officials hoped eventually to build a case against major arms smugglers serving Mexican drug cartels.

Republican lawmakers leading an investigation of Fast and Furious say the ATF didn't have the means to track the guns and should have known that such tactics were dangerous.

At a hearing by the House oversight committee Wednesday, three ATF agents made scathing assessments of decisions by agency officials to refrain from arrests and allow suspected illicit gun purchases to proceed. Agent Peter Forcelli said Fast and Furious exhibited a "colossal failure of leadership."

The hearing also highlighted partisan differences, as agents raised concerns about existing gun laws one called "toothless." They partly blamed the laws for the aggressive ATF tactics now under scrutiny. Democratic lawmakers at the hearing pounced on those comments to urge consideration of new laws to address the problem of "straw purchasers," small-time buyers who purchase firearms on behalf of cartel smugglers. Many GOP lawmakers, and pro-gun Democrats, oppose new laws.

Mr. Terry's mother and sister sat beside his cousin, Robert Heyer, at the hearing as he tearfully read a statement on behalf of the family. Mr. Heyer spoke of the family's anguish at learning of Mr. Terry's death in a phone call in the middle of the night 10 days before Christmas. He recounted how relatives received presents Mr. Terry had mailed shortly before he was killed.

"We ask that if a government official made a wrong decision, they admit their error and take responsibility for his or her actions," he said.

Rep. Darrell Issa of California, chairman of the committee, and Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa, the senior Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, released internal ATF emails that identified the senior officials involved, including Kenneth Melson, the bureau's acting director.

One email among ATF officials describes Mr. Melson's request for the Internet link to hidden cameras the ATF had planted in gun shops cooperating with the Fast and Furious probe, Mr. Issa said, citing the documents. That allowed Mr. Melson to watch a live feed of suspected straw buyers purchasing AK-47-style rifles, Mr. Issa said.

The Justice Department has said the operation never was intended to let weapons be trafficked to Mexico. Attorney General Eric Holder has ordered an investigation of the operation.

An ATF spokesman declined to comment, citing the investigation.

Ronald Weich, assistant attorney general for legislative affairs, testified but gave few details of the program. Mr. Weich said that if the investigation found "flawed strategies" or "insufficient surveillance of weapons," the responsible officials would be held to account. The agents cited the reluctance by some prosecutors to bring charges in gun-trafficking cases as another reason why the ATF operation came about. Law-enforcement officials say it's hard to bring cases. They cite a case in 2008 that was dismissed by an Arizona federal judge, who ruled there was insufficient evidence to charge a man with being an unlicensed gun dealer although he sold 400 firearms. The judge said there wasn't enough proof of profit-making.

A congressional report produced ahead of the hearing included testimony from four Phoenix ATF agents, who described how they and other agents battled supervisors. The dissenting agents said they wanted to make arrests instead of allowing illicit guns into circulation, fearing they would lead to deaths. Supervisors insisted that the investigation proceed, aiming to trace them to weapons traffickers, the congressional report shows.

Rep. Elijah Cummings, of Maryland, the top Democrat on the oversight panel, called the committee's findings so far "very troubling." He cited testimony that instead of agents following the guns, "surveillance of suspected straw purchasers was discontinued repeatedly, seemingly for no reason, so agents could return to gun stores to start over with new suspects."

ATF agents interviewed by congressional investigators described supervisors trying to tamp down agents' misgivings about the strategy to allow the weapons purchases.

An April 2010 email from an ATF agent in Mexico City to a bureau official, reviewed by The Wall Street Journal, discussed plans to provide a classified briefing to Mr. Issa's own committee about several cases, including Fast and Furious. A spokesman for Mr. Issa said that the congressman wasn't briefed on specifics of the operation and that staffers who attended the briefing don't recall the operation being mentioned.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lair View Post
I'm not intelligent enough to understand satire.
CAG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 05:28 PM   #2
JonJon
Tinfoilhatatarian
 
JonJon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: One of the most evil states ever to exist
Posts: 3,476
My Ride: .
Send a message via AIM to JonJon
I talk about this stuff on gun forums... people around here get easily confused.
__________________
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
I agree with JonJon.
JonJon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 05:45 PM   #3
Lair
Modded ///Member
 
Lair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sea level
Posts: 321
My Ride: e90, cheap Boxster
So. . .no proof of any wrongdoing?
__________________

Quote:
Are you following him?

Yes.
Congratulations.
Lair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 05:53 PM   #4
2000_328CI
DK Jack Sparrow
 
2000_328CI's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Isla de Muerta | DC/VA
Posts: 29,024
My Ride: 328Ci | Range Rover
Send a message via AIM to 2000_328CI Send a message via MSN to 2000_328CI
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lair View Post
So. . .no proof of any wrongdoing?
Obama could be caught, on camera, with the smoking gun, and Lair would cry "Fox news doctored the tapes!!!".
__________________

Everything you need to know on muffler deletes : http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=745244
Wrapping an E46 in Vinyl : http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...ghlight=bronze
2000_328CI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 05:59 PM   #5
Stanc3
Registered User
 
Stanc3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Yorba Linda, CA (Orange County)
Posts: 8,049
My Ride: 99' JB 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000_328CI View Post
Obama could be caught, on camera, with the smoking gun, and Lair would cry "Fox news doctored the tapes!!!".
other than your mention of him and the op's mention in his title, where is Obama brought up in the document? Don't see him mentioned at all... (unless this chain of command HAD to come from him, and nobody else)


and yes, I watched the DOJ and ATF get grilled on the news last night, they seem to have gotten themselves into some sh!t with this one.
__________________
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought,
but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

- Albert Einstein
- Chad
Stanc3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 07:14 PM   #6
Lair
Modded ///Member
 
Lair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sea level
Posts: 321
My Ride: e90, cheap Boxster
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000_328CI View Post
Obama could be caught, on camera, with the smoking gun, and Lair would cry "Fox news doctored the tapes!!!".
And I would be right.
__________________

Quote:
Are you following him?

Yes.
Congratulations.
Lair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 10:10 AM   #7
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: 3.5 Liters of fury
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Most open and transparent administration in history...or the past 5 years. Same difference

http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-r...s-information/
Quote:
(Washington, DC) - Judicial Watch announced today that on July 18, 2014, the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia ruled that the Obama Department of Justice (DOJ) must turn over to the organization a "Vaughn index" of all requested Operation Fast and Furious materials from the June 2012 Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request and subsequent September 2012 FOIA lawsuit (Judicial Watch v. Department of Justice (No. 1:12-cv-01510)). Judicial Watch sought all of the documents the Obama White House was withholding from the House of Representatives under executive privilege claims.

The ruling by U.S. District Court Judge John D. Bates lifted a lengthy 16-month delay of this open records lawsuit. This order forces the Obama DOJ, for the first time and by October 1, 2014, to provide a detailed listing of all documents that it has withheld from Congress and the American people for years about the deadly Fast and Furious gun running scandal.

The DOJ opposed the Judicial Watch action, claiming it would interfere with the department's continuing litigation with the House Oversight Committee concerning these Fast and Furious documents subpoenaed in October 2011. In September 2012, Obama asserted executive privilege over the documents. In the July 2014 opinion overruling the Obama Justice Department's request for an almost indefinite hold on Judicial Watch's legal right obtains this information under the Freedom of Information Act Bates said:

In the [February 15, 2013] order granting the stay, this court explicitly noted that the DOJ 'does not seek, and the court will not award, an indefinite stay pending ultimate resolution of the House Committee litigation,' and that 'the benefits of delaying this case might well [become] too attenuated to justify any further delay" ...

Because many of the issues to be resolved in this case do not overlap with the House committee, and because resolving those issues will not risk upsetting the delicate balance of powers in subpoena disputes between the political branches, the Court will require DOJ to produce a Vaughn index here.

In fact, the court suggested that disclosing information to Judicial Watch might actually resolve the legal dispute now before Judge Amy Berman Jackson between the Obama administration and Congress:

True, nothing in the subpoena enforcement context of House Committee would require DOJ to produce a particularized description of the withheld documents...But this is a FOIA case, and since 1973, when Vaughn was decided, courts in this circuit have required agencies to justify their FOIA withholdings on a particularized basis. And doing so here will not prematurely expose or resolve the executive privilege issues ahead of Judge Jackson and the political branches; it will merely permit the parties and this Court to cull from the dispute any documents as to which a valid, non-executive privilege reason for withholding exists, thereby narrowing or perhaps even resolving the case. To the extent DOJ argues that the mere production of the Vaughn index-not involving the release of any documents in dispute-would alter the historical balance of powers between the branches, any unbalancing would result from FOIA itself, a law passed by Congress and signed into law by the President, and which this Court cannot ignore forever.

Judge Bates also noted no court has ever "expressly recognized" President Obama's executive privilege claims that his administration is using to keep these documents secret from Congress and the American people.

The DOJ claims, in addition to other Exemption 5 rationales, at least two distinct forms of executive privilege to justify withholding documents: a "deliberative process" privilege of constitutional dimensions and a "congressional response work-product" privilege. See: Mem.in Supp. of Def.'s Mot. for Summ. J., House Committee, No. 12-1332 [ECF No. 63] ("House Committee Def.'s Mot.***8221 at 21-27, 27-30. It appears that neither form has been expressly recognized by any court Id (citing Senate Select Comm. on Pres. Campaign Activities v. Nixon, 498 F.2d 725 (D.C. Cir. 1974)).

A Vaughn index must: (1) identify each document withheld; (2) state the statutory exemption claimed; and (3) explain how disclosure would damage the interests protected by the claimed exemption." In ordering the DOJ to provide Judicial Watch the Vaughn index, the Court ruled, "In this circuit, when an agency is withholding documents under exemption claims, courts require that the agency provide a Vaughn index so that the FOIA requester - at a distinct informational disadvantage - may test the agency's claims."

Fast and Furious was a DOJ/Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) "gun-running" operation in which the Obama administration reportedly allowed guns to go to Mexican drug cartels in hopes that they would end up at crime scenes, thereby advancing gun-control policies. Fast and Furious weapons have been implicated in the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and hundreds of other innocents in Mexico.

On June 20, 2012, President Obama asserted executive privilege over Fast and Furious documents the House Oversight Committee had subpoenaed eight months earlier. Judicial Watch filed its FOIA request two days later. When the DOJ denied that request, Judicial Watch filed a FOIA lawsuit on September 12, 2012. On February 15, 2013, Judge Bates stayed the case, in part to allow ongoing settlement discussions between the DOJ and the House Committee to continue. Judge Bates' order lifted the stay after a lengthy July 18 hearing. Generally speaking, the documents at issue are about how and if the Obama administration misled Congress about the Fast and Furious matter.

"Once again, Judicial Watch has beat Congress to the punch in getting key information about another Obama scandal - this time, the Fast and Furious outrage," said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton. "A federal court has ordered the Obama administration to produce information that could, for the first time, provide specific details who in the administration is responsible for Fast and Furious lies to Congress and the American people. This is a battle that put Eric Holder in contempt of Congress, saw Nixonian assertions of executive privilege by Barack Obama, and a hapless Congress in face of all this lawlessness. Finally, we may get some accountability for Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and the countless others murdered as a result of the insanely reckless Obama administration program."

The Judicial Watch lawsuit for Oversight Committee documents is one of several FOIA lawsuits Judicial Watch has filed in its effort to obtain information concerning the Fast and Furious scandal:
•On October 11, 2011, Judicial Watch sued the DOJ and the ATF to obtain all Fast and Furious records submitted to the House Committee on Oversight.
•On June 6, 2012, Judicial Watch sued the ATF seeking access to records detailing communications between ATF officials and Kevin O'Reilly, former Obama White House Director of North American Affairs at the U.S. National Security Council.
•On September 5, 2013, Judicial Watch sued the DOJ seeking access to all records of communications between DOJ and the Oversight Committee relating to settlement discussions in the Committee's 2012 contempt of Congress lawsuit against Holder. The contempt citation stemmed from Holder's refusal to turn over documents to Congress related to the Fast and Furious gunrunning scandal.
•On May 28, 2014, Judicial Watch sued the DOJ on behalf of ATF Special Agent John Dodson, who blew the whistle on Operation Fast and Furious and was then subjected to an alleged smear campaign designed to destroy his reputation.
Delay tactics, Mr. Holder? Take a fcking hike
__________________
Gold Medal Recipient: Jimmy Rustling (2014)

“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 11:34 AM   #8
bagher
Registered User
 
bagher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Vienna, VA
Posts: 17,852
My Ride: Neocon outrage
Send a message via AIM to bagher Send a message via Skype™ to bagher
I don't think you are going to find anyone here going to bat for Holder.
__________________
** Removed **
bagher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 12:57 PM   #9
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: 3.5 Liters of fury
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by bagher View Post
I don't think you are going to find anyone here going to bat for Holder.
I highly doubt we all agree he is a horrible attorney general. He's so blatantly political it degrades his position. Hey, at least he was the first this to do that right? RIGHT?


The Obama administration default position of stonewalling should concern any American, regardless of political persuasion.
__________________
Gold Medal Recipient: Jimmy Rustling (2014)

“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 04:06 PM   #10
Lair
Modded ///Member
 
Lair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sea level
Posts: 321
My Ride: e90, cheap Boxster
I'm concerned.
__________________

Quote:
Are you following him?

Yes.
Congratulations.
Lair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 06:08 PM   #11
Xcelratr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal - 310
Posts: 958
My Ride: 04 330Ci ZHP
In before Holder's hard drive crashes.
__________________
----------------------------------------------
Quote:
As a juror, do you think the trial was a publicity stunt?

Yes
----------------------------------------------
Xcelratr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 06:32 PM   #12
brew
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Central Oregon
Posts: 347
My Ride: Sequoia X5 MR2 G20
Quote:
A Vaughn index must: (1) identify each document withheld; (2) state the statutory exemption claimed; and (3) explain how disclosure would damage the interests protected by the claimed exemption."
As far as I know there is no statutory exemption for executive privilege. the list is going to look like this:

. . .
(1) email dated 6/12/2009; (2) not applicable; (3) not applicable
(1) email dated 6/12/2009; (2) not applicable; (3) not applicable
(1) email dated 6/13/2009; (2) not applicable; (3) not applicable
(1) email dated 6/15/2009; (2) not applicable; (3) not applicable
etc.
brew is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 06:41 PM   #13
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: 3.5 Liters of fury
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by brew View Post
As far as I know there is no statutory exemption for executive privilege. the list is going to look like this:

. . .
(1) email dated 6/12/2009; (2) not applicable; (3) not applicable
(1) email dated 6/12/2009; (2) not applicable; (3) not applicable
(1) email dated 6/13/2009; (2) not applicable; (3) not applicable
(1) email dated 6/15/2009; (2) not applicable; (3) not applicable
etc.
man, talk about transparent!
__________________
Gold Medal Recipient: Jimmy Rustling (2014)

“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 07:00 PM   #14
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 524
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
In before Holder's hard drive crashes.
He had to destroy the hard drives to protect a sensitive operation.

Guess when a similiar excuse was used?
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 07:01 PM   #15
MDydinanM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 754
My Ride: is a ///M
Illuminati

Last edited by MDydinanM; 08-01-2014 at 07:01 PM.
MDydinanM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 07:15 PM   #16
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: 3.5 Liters of fury
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by badfast View Post
He had to destroy the hard drives to protect a sensitive operation.

Guess when a similiar excuse was used?
umm, before #change?

#falseequivalence
__________________
Gold Medal Recipient: Jimmy Rustling (2014)

“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 07:25 PM   #17
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 524
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
umm, before #change?

#falseequivalence
We all know you dont know. So no need for you to try and address.

But it was Oliver North on Iran-Contra. You know...selling weapons to Iran. Many believe it was Olly protecting Ronnie.

Last edited by badfast; 08-01-2014 at 07:26 PM.
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 07:29 PM   #18
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: 3.5 Liters of fury
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by badfast View Post
We all know you dont know. So no need for you to try and address.

But it was Oliver North on Iran-Contra. You know...selling weapons to Iran. Many believe it was Olly protecting Ronnie.
....and your point is?

What about change? transparency? not red states, not blue states?
__________________
Gold Medal Recipient: Jimmy Rustling (2014)

“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2014, 08:22 AM   #19
ti317
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 618
My Ride: 02 330ci coupe 5 spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanc3 View Post
other than your mention of him and the op's mention in his title, where is Obama brought up in the document? Don't see him mentioned at all... (unless this chain of command HAD to come from him, and nobody else)


and yes, I watched the DOJ and ATF get grilled on the news last night, they seem to have gotten themselves into some sh!t with this one.
Funny, a bunch of mouth breathing redneck National Guardsmen, thousands of miles from D.C. humiliate and degrade prisoners in an Iraqi prison ( Abu Ghraib), people go to jail and a General officer loses her career but it just "had to be Bush and Cheney's fault".
Yet the President's direct appointee and personal friend whose office is minutes away from the White House, is demonstrably involved in several scandals and unlawful schemes and we demand DNA evidence?
__________________
Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away!
ti317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2014, 10:21 AM   #20
tim330i
Owner/Admin
 
tim330i's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Boston
Posts: 11,145
My Ride: 03 Ti Silver M3
Post stripped. Back on topic.

Tim
tim330i is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use