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Old 12-23-2016, 04:53 PM   #1
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Trump, Israel, and the Palestinians

Today the US abstained from voting in the UN regarding Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

Trump has been vocal against the resolution regarding Israel and warned the UN things will be different soon.

I assume once Trump enters office he will support Israel moves in the West Bank and provide cover with US power in the UN.

This leads me with little confidence with regards to making steps forward in West Bank. I see the settlements as being Israel's method to annex areas of the West Bank. As more settlements appear in the West Bank the prospect for peace and/or a two state solution diminish.

So I am asking the knowledgable Trump minds that exist on this forum, how do you guys see Trump managing this volatile and complex situation.

Note: Yelling "lolfags" at the Palestinians will likely not work.
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Old 12-23-2016, 06:03 PM   #2
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My gut instinct is that Israel needs to respect it's own borders and stop with the expansion, but I don't know enough about the situation in any kind of depth and would be open to hearing alternative viewpoints.
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Old 12-23-2016, 06:40 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by badfast View Post
Today the US abstained from voting in the UN regarding Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

Trump has been vocal against the resolution regarding Israel and warned the UN things will be different soon.

I assume once Trump enters office he will support Israel moves in the West Bank and provide cover with US power in the UN.

This leads me with little confidence with regards to making steps forward in West Bank. I see the settlements as being Israel's method to annex areas of the West Bank. As more settlements appear in the West Bank the prospect for peace and/or a two state solution diminish.

So I am asking the knowledgable Trump minds that exist on this forum, how do you guys see Trump managing this volatile and complex situation.

Note: Yelling "lolfags" at the Palestinians will likely not work.
Well, you're military, and Im sure you played risk as a kid. You advance/secure your territory by marking it, which is why they build on it. It is Israeli land as of now (usually spoils of war) which is why they build on it.

Now, as for Trump, if the "other side" were saudi's, turks, etc, he would probably either abstain entirely, or try the Clinton approach to broker a peace deal (which wouldn't work) but since he does have mutual respect with Bibi, AND he knows that the Palestinians are governed by a terrorist organization, I will say that he will support Israel 100%, however, to make it look like he's trying to broker peace, I would advise him to reach out to the Palestinian people and tell them if they ever want peace and POSSIBLY a two state solution, they must reject their terrorist government, elect a moderate, and then he will do what he can to help broker peace, but until then, they will get no help from the USofA.

Just my .02 of course.
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Old 12-23-2016, 06:43 PM   #4
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My gut instinct is that Israel needs to respect it's own borders and stop with the expansion, but I don't know enough about the situation in any kind of depth and would be open to hearing alternative viewpoints.
These "settlements" are built on land conquered in various wars. Did we not create settlements known as the American southwest and california? And before anyone brings up the BS ICC or Geneva Convention, Israel doesn't really GAF, and it is the only country on the planet where all these governing bodies apply these rules. Remember, Israel was the #1 human rights violator lol, and it's the only real safe democracy in the region.
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Old 12-24-2016, 01:21 PM   #5
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I was going to say, didn't they get the land thru the Yom Kippur and Six day wars when they were invaded by a coalition of arab states? I think them arabs asked for it.
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Old 12-24-2016, 01:42 PM   #6
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I was going to say, didn't they get the land thru the Yom Kippur and Six day wars when they were invaded by a coalition of arab states? I think them arabs asked for it.
I find it curious that the norm these days seems to be that after a war happens everyone just bends over backwards to return everything to the way it was before the war. It used to be that if you lost a war, you lost a lot. Now it seems like the first thing that happens after a war is the "winner" spends billions of dollars rebuilding the "loser"'s infrastructure and economy.
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Old 12-24-2016, 01:51 PM   #7
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I find it curious that the norm these days seems to be that after a war happens everyone just bends over backwards to return everything to the way it was before the war. It used to be that if you lost a war, you lost a lot. Now it seems like the first thing that happens after a war is the "winner" spends billions of dollars rebuilding the "loser"'s infrastructure and economy.
Maybe to help avoid the next war, i.e., the Marshall Plan. I think we take greatly for granted the peace, prosperity and security of post WWII Europe.
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Old 12-24-2016, 04:39 PM   #8
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I was going to say, didn't they get the land thru the Yom Kippur and Six day wars when they were invaded by a coalition of arab states? I think them arabs asked for it.
Yes they did. However things change. Time doesn't stand still.


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I find it curious that the norm these days seems to be that after a war happens everyone just bends over backwards to return everything to the way it was before the war. It used to be that if you lost a war, you lost a lot. Now it seems like the first thing that happens after a war is the "winner" spends billions of dollars rebuilding the "loser"'s infrastructure and economy.
Typically it is to prevent relapses into war.

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Old 12-24-2016, 05:08 PM   #9
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I was going to say, didn't they get the land thru the Yom Kippur and Six day wars when they were invaded by a coalition of arab states? I think them arabs asked for it.


Except that the land in question isn't Syrian or Jordanian land i.e. the nations who fought with Israel.

No this land is land that the native Palestinians lived on before the Europeans arrived.

And by Europeans I mean European Jews.




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Old 12-24-2016, 06:38 PM   #10
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Maybe to help avoid the next war, i.e., the Marshall Plan. I think we take greatly for granted the peace, prosperity and security of post WWII Europe.
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Typically it is to prevent relapses into war.
I agree. Although, one might observe and then argue that that has not been nearly as fruitful a strategy (for us) in recent years as it was immediately after WWII.
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Old 12-24-2016, 11:28 PM   #11
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Except that the land in question isn't Syrian or Jordanian land i.e. the nations who fought with Israel.

No this land is land that the native Palestinians lived on before the Europeans arrived.

And by Europeans I mean European Jews.




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Read the history of that piece of land...Jews were on the land before Islam even existed. There is no such thing as a "palestinian" and there never was. It's a made up place that somehow got traction, like Kwanza got traction as a holiday. Most of them are Jordanian exiles that fled when King Hussein of Jordan was exterminating them all, and the ONLY country in the region that gave them refuge was Israel. The entire area was also British conquered land, just like India, and BECAUSE of anti-semitism at the time, the British gave the jews the smallest and the sh!ttiest piece of land in the division, with no resources of any kind.
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Old 12-25-2016, 11:04 AM   #12
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Trump, Israel, and the Palestinians

History according to whom? The Bible? Josephus? Lol. All that s*** is full of lies and conjecture. And if nothing else history is written by the Conquerors and makes the losers look like the most evil people on earth.

ancient history doesn't matter.

What does matter is recent history - i.e. That Jews, arabs and, yes, even Christians lived side by side until European Jews decided it all belonged to them - Revisionist Zionism.

Religion has nothing to do with it.

Actually the British tried to keep the European Jews out of Palestine. Remember?

Until the Jews began terrorist attacks on the British and Arabs and fought to be allowed to rule Palestine. Look up Irgun and Haganah - Jews who attacked Arab civilians.

Then the Brits disarmed the Arabs and walked away and we have the present mess.

Happy Chanukah.


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Old 12-26-2016, 12:59 AM   #13
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History according to whom? The Bible? Josephus? Lol. All that s*** is full of lies and conjecture. And if nothing else history is written by the Conquerors and makes the losers look like the most evil people on earth.

ancient history doesn't matter.

What does matter is recent history - i.e. That Jews, arabs and, yes, even Christians lived side by side until European Jews decided it all belonged to them - Revisionist Zionism.

Religion has nothing to do with it.

Actually the British tried to keep the European Jews out of Palestine. Remember?

Until the Jews began terrorist attacks on the British and Arabs and fought to be allowed to rule Palestine. Look up Irgun and Haganah - Jews who attacked Arab civilians.

Then the Brits disarmed the Arabs and walked away and we have the present mess.

Happy Chanukah.


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Im not talking about ancient history of biblical history...Im talking about modern history, discovering clear evidence of jews in Israel long before Islam ever graced us with it's presence. Jews and Arabs (arab doesn't mean muslim FYI) have indeed lived there for a long time, and still do. The Palestinians today are NOT the people from those times, not even close. The Palestinian mandate (which again, has nothing to do with Palestinians today) had clear lines to who gets what. I don't see you crying about the American southwest being returned to Mexico, I don't see you packing your bags for living on "indian land" or for half of Europe to be returned to Turkey, or even the fvcking penguins on the falkland islands.....so lets keep the double standards to a minimum.
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Old 12-27-2016, 08:17 AM   #14
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Im not talking about ancient history of biblical history...Im talking about modern history, discovering clear evidence of jews in Israel long before Islam ever graced us with it's presence. Jews and Arabs (arab doesn't mean muslim FYI) have indeed lived there for a long time, and still do. The Palestinians today are NOT the people from those times, not even close. The Palestinian mandate (which again, has nothing to do with Palestinians today) had clear lines to who gets what. I don't see you crying about the American southwest being returned to Mexico, I don't see you packing your bags for living on "indian land" or for half of Europe to be returned to Turkey, or even the fvcking penguins on the falkland islands.....so lets keep the double standards to a minimum.
Not really a double standard. The settlements are illegal according to international law. Period. This is a black and white issue. These are not "spoils of war" but rather as you implied earlier, strategic land grabs that are likely to be used as bargaining chips over some peace process at some point in the future. Right wingers in Israel sell this to religious fanatics (there is no shortage of fundamentalist fanatics in Israel) as a way to reclaim their God-given lands to encourage them to go settle.

The real point here is that America is and has been propping up an apartheid regime that not only is ungrateful, but also actively works against the interests of the US- both directly and indirectly.

The fact that Israel supposedly has "evidence" of covert U.S. planning of the U.N resolution and will supply that intel to the Trump administration is not only a massive break of diplomatic protocols, but is clearly meant to spit in the face of the sitting U.S. president. You, as an American, who keeps Israel on a military lifeline, have no problem with this behavior??

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Old 12-27-2016, 11:23 AM   #15
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Yes really a double standard. Just because you call it a "settlement" doesn't make it any different than the US war with mexico. They are not settlements, but Israeli land that used to belong to someone else. Happened with the Turks, the British, the French, and the US. There are plenty of people on this planet that live on "contested" soil, so what? It is literally one country that gets hounded for it, by basically two anti jewish bodies, that no one really cares about. You also don't really understand that there is no such thing as "international law." It's a made up word that feels good when diplomats spout off at the mouth. Tell me about the international law violation of Assad and his chemical weapons....was he punished yet? Maybe you should prosecute?

You're also a clown for using the word apartheid, because clearly you have no idea what it means. As for working against the US interests, I guess you should stop taking medication, using smartphones, computers, driving on roads built with heavy equipment, or using hospitals....or live in California, or care about the US military that which gets billions in R&D and training from Israel lol.

But don't let that get in the way of your bias...the palestinians that built a mud hut are much more beneficial to the interests of the united states.

It wasn't as secret that Obama was going to do something nasty and drastic against Israel before he left. It was published LONG LONG LONG before it actually happened. Just like the DNC scandal, I have no problem with the truth coming to light, regardless of the means. If Israel breaks diplomatic protocols to shine light on corruption of the UN and the obama administration, Im all for it, just like I was all for the Clinton hack, the Snowden incident, etc.
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Old 12-27-2016, 11:53 AM   #16
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Yes really a double standard. Just because you call it a "settlement" doesn't make it any different than the US war with mexico. They are not settlements, but Israeli land that used to belong to someone else. Happened with the Turks, the British, the French, and the US. There are plenty of people on this planet that live on "contested" soil, so what? It is literally one country that gets hounded for it, by basically two anti jewish bodies, that no one really cares about. You also don't really understand that there is no such thing as "international law." It's a made up word that feels good when diplomats spout off at the mouth. Tell me about the international law violation of Assad and his chemical weapons....was he punished yet? Maybe you should prosecute?

You're also a clown for using the word apartheid, because clearly you have no idea what it means. As for working against the US interests, I guess you should stop taking medication, using smartphones, computers, driving on roads built with heavy equipment, or using hospitals....or live in California, or care about the US military that which gets billions in R&D and training from Israel lol.

But don't let that get in the way of your bias...the palestinians that built a mud hut are much more beneficial to the interests of the united states.

It wasn't as secret that Obama was going to do something nasty and drastic against Israel before he left. It was published LONG LONG LONG before it actually happened. Just like the DNC scandal, I have no problem with the truth coming to light, regardless of the means. If Israel breaks diplomatic protocols to shine light on corruption of the UN and the obama administration, Im all for it, just like I was all for the Clinton hack, the Snowden incident, etc.

That you compare the Israeli actions in this case to Assad is fitting and I think really makes my point for me.

If you are advocating for "to the victor go the spoils" type of world order, then again, I think you make my point for me. By your logic, we would be turning back the clock on diplomacy and the state of the world to the early 1900's. Most of the civilized world has evolved beyond that.

Finally, if one of the "anti-jewish bodies" that you refer to is the UN, then I don't know what to tell you. Keep in mind this was a 14-0 vote on the resolution, so the "body" you speak of is 14 sovereign nations voting. There is international consensus, call it what you want, that Israeli actions related to the settlements, is illegal (not to mention immoral).

We'll never agree on these issues, but what I cannot get past is how people of your mindset are incapable of seeing how America's Israel policy is completely contrary to its broader national interest and how the special interest Israeli lobby drives foreign policy in a way that actually hurts this county. Fact is though, sentiment in this county is finally waking up this point and Israeli's apartheid policies are finally being seen for what they are.
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Old 12-27-2016, 08:26 PM   #17
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That you compare the Israeli actions in this case to Assad is fitting and I think really makes my point for me.

If you are advocating for "to the victor go the spoils" type of world order, then again, I think you make my point for me. By your logic, we would be turning back the clock on diplomacy and the state of the world to the early 1900's. Most of the civilized world has evolved beyond that.

Finally, if one of the "anti-jewish bodies" that you refer to is the UN, then I don't know what to tell you. Keep in mind this was a 14-0 vote on the resolution, so the "body" you speak of is 14 sovereign nations voting. There is international consensus, call it what you want, that Israeli actions related to the settlements, is illegal (not to mention immoral).

We'll never agree on these issues, but what I cannot get past is how people of your mindset are incapable of seeing how America's Israel policy is completely contrary to its broader national interest and how the special interest Israeli lobby drives foreign policy in a way that actually hurts this county. Fact is though, sentiment in this county is finally waking up this point and Israeli's apartheid policies are finally being seen for what they are.
Yea, all that, for about 20 days, until Trump gets into office, undoes all of it, and has the complete opposite policy, (and hopefully withdraws the US out of the UN and kicks them out of the US). Plenty of senators already working on legislation to cut 100% of US funding to the UN.

Finally, you REALLY need to learn what apartheid is, because you're coming across as a fvcking moron calling Israel an apartheid state.
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Old 12-28-2016, 07:55 AM   #18
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Yea, all that, for about 20 days, until Trump gets into office, undoes all of it, and has the complete opposite policy, (and hopefully withdraws the US out of the UN and kicks them out of the US). Plenty of senators already working on legislation to cut 100% of US funding to the UN.

Finally, you REALLY need to learn what apartheid is, because you're coming across as a fvcking moron calling Israel an apartheid state.
Ah yes, your savior David Freidman will come and finally set right all the wrongs the evil Obama did to the poor people of Israel, America's only ally in the region, lol. You do realize that the VAST majority of Israeli citizens' views are nowhere close to as right wing/hawkish as Freidman's? He's viewed as an extreme quasi-lunatic by all but he most radial religious fanatics in Israel.

As for withdrawing from the UN, well again, it highlights your distain for international law and that you think somehow the U.S. and Israel are above answering for their actions before the international community. Ok, again, extreme and radical views, not held by the majority of citizens on this planet, much less this country, but you are free to continue living in your bubble.

Oh an finally, as for the apartheid state thing (from an LA Times article a while back, sorry for the copy paste):

as defined by the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid, adopted by the U.N. General Assembly in 1973 and ratified by most United Nations member states (Israel and the United States are exceptions- big surprise)

According to Article II of that convention, the term applies to acts "committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." Denying those others the right to life and liberty, subjecting them to arbitrary arrest, expropriating their property, depriving them of the right to leave and return to their country or the right to freedom of movement and of residence, creating separate reserves and ghettos for the members of different racial groups, preventing mixed marriages these are all examples of the crime of apartheid specifically mentioned in the convention.


Pretty much fits the bill. You may now proceed with disavowing the UN and calling the LA Times a liberal rag, blah blah...
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Old 12-28-2016, 10:53 AM   #19
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Le sigh. Apartheid is towards people of your own nation. Muslims are not only equals in Israel but have power and serve in government. You can't be an apartheid state if your "oppression" is towards another state....much less if that state doesn't actually exist.
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:24 AM   #20
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Muslims are not only equals in Israel but have power and serve in government. You can't be an apartheid state if your "oppression" is towards another state....much less if that state doesn't actually exist.
You're making less and less sense as this conversation nears its inevitable conclusion of you being unwilling to accept the obvious facts that back up my case - either because of some twisted allegiance to a foreign state that continues to act against the interest of your actual country (Im assuming you are not Israeli) or because of some deep-rooted (and even more twisted) notion that Israel is indeed the land that god has given to the Jews. In any case, like I said before, we'll never agree on these issues.

If you haven't already been, I encourage you to go over there and see with your own eyes what's going on. I'm not talking about the cafes or clubs of Tel Aviv but take a quick ride through any of the occupied territories to see if you still think that the word apartheid does not apply. Talk to Israeli citizens who, for the most part, are far less hawkish than the right wing nuts that run the country and view the settlements as counter to any long-term solution.
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