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Old 10-07-2012, 03:36 PM   #21
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this crap again?


bmw 5w /30 is cheaper at dealer than getting mobil1 0w/40 at advance, and the best option
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:30 PM   #22
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Since winter is coming, you should have gone from a normal purchase of 10w30 to a winter purchase of 5w30, you went backwards. 5w30 is thinner when cold, 10w30 is thicker. The thin oil circulates easier in cold temps, therefore it gets to the critical points sooner. Where's Tracy, near Sacramento, right? If I am right, then you live in a climate where 10w30 or 5w30 is no big deal, if you lived in Fargo then you would probably want to know more about oil viscosity so you do not make this mistake again.

I was in a BMW parts department a few weeks ago, and looked at every bottle of oil on the shelf in the customer area of the store, not one listed itself as LL-01. The Owner's Manual says that API Grade SM or higher is good. I believe the API Grade on the shelf at Walmart these days is SR. I have never seen a bottle of oil that says it is LL-01, except I did see that spec once about a year ago at my local dealership, but on a recent trip I did not see it. There is no published spec in any User Documentation that says, LL-01. All available user documentation says API Grade SM.

You can, and should, use the best quality oil you can find, and this includes the suggestion that you use LL-01, but your motor will not turn to a heap of molten metal on the way to work someday because you bought motor oil at Walmart. It is far more likely to turn to a pile of molten metal because the viscosity is way too heavy or way too thin, or it is some old motor oil you found in the corner of Grandpa's barn that he bought in 1950. If you buy the highest API Grade, which I think is about SR or ST today, and it is the correct weight for your climate, then your car will be fine.
The owners manual says LL01. It also says if not available then ACEA A3, B3 oil is OK. Oh that is everywhere except the U.S where they omitted it.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:04 AM   #23
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You put in 7 quarts of oil right?

Your car takes 7 quarts of oil, not 5. This is a huge part of why the oil change interval is so long on your BMW.
Thanks for the info. And yea I always put in 7 quarts and Tracy is by Sacramento.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:38 AM   #24
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Is it synthetic? Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it unless you're going to be experiencing a lot of sub-freezing temps.

These engines aren't delicate just because their spec sheets call for something specific. Those specs have a lot more to do with getting the oil to last 15,000 miles than anything else. Just don't run it that long.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:16 PM   #25
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The owners manual says LL01. It also says if not available then ACEA A3, B3 oil is OK. Oh that is everywhere except the U.S where they omitted it.
Do you suppose that all oil in the USA is LL-01? Or, that there is no LL-01 here.

We have consumer protection rules here that do not allow a manufacturer to require their own products to maintain a car. We cannot be bent over and told, "use this product or we're not gonna cover the warranty." We can be bent over and told, "you have to have service done or we won't cover the warranty," but the products used in the performance of that service cannot be required to be the maker's own products.

You cannot use Joe's Brakes and expect BMW to honor the warranty service if they don't work, but BMW can only require oil changes on an particular interval and that the oil meet a common specification, API Grade SM, or whatever, is that specification.

The light weight oil that they call for has more to do with corporate fuel economy than with the individual needs of a specific engine. Oil that it too light has always been more of a problem for an automobile engine than oil that's too thick. Indeed, as an engine ages, it was common to push the oil from 30 weight ot 40 weight to control leaks and smoking and other ailments of that nature. Oil that's too thin (in the old days) did not protect the metal parts that it is designed to protect. Now, oil is far different than when I was a kid, and thin oil is far superior in its ability to protect metal parts than in the days just after the invention of the first wheel.

Use light weight oil to improve fuel economy, and most automakers today call for 0w30 or 5w30, and performance cars that once used 20w50 now take 15w40 or 10w40 to reduce the overall fuel demands of the fleet.

Mere mortal automobiles, including the BMW 3 Series can take 10w30 or 10w40 for year around use in moderate climates, and will like to have 0w30 in cold climates in winter.

Be sure to use the API Grade SN or better. (the highest grade of oil on my shelf at this moment is SN, but I'm not sure how long ago I bought it. I have SR stuck in my head as the highest API Grade available today, but I don't have any of this.)

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Old 10-08-2012, 12:35 PM   #26
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... I have never seen a bottle of oil that says it is LL-01, except I did see that spec once about a year ago at my local dealership, but on a recent trip I did not see it. ...
Why is it like that over there? O.o I guess that would be too much info for an average user... In Europe, basicly 99% of oils, made by big companies, have labels that contain info similar to this:

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Old 10-08-2012, 02:28 PM   #27
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So I went to go buy oil and got 10w-30 instead of 5w-30. Since the winters coming up thought of getting thicker oil. Is it bad to use it in a 330?
I wouldn't say its bad. Just that 10W is thicker than 5W and why would you want a thicker oil in winter? You need a thicker overcoat in winter but not necessarily thicker oil. Thicker oils cause more friction and therefore more heat and they waste power and affect fuel consumption so it's always best to use the thinnest oil that you can get away with and still maintain oil pressure.

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Old 10-08-2012, 02:38 PM   #28
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Why is it like that over there? O.o I guess that would be too much info for an average user... In Europe, basicly 99% of oils, made by big companies, have labels that contain info similar to this:

LL-01 is not here. It is not a USA specification. We have a specification called API Grade, that you might not have in Europe. Get LL-01 if you can, but if you can't then get the API Grade. What's so difficult about this?
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:50 PM   #29
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"if polarity comes from protons, does morality come from morons?"
For the record. Polarity is due to the overall distribution of free moving ELECTRONS about the molecule. The degree of electronegativity at various points throughout the molecular bonds. This is also influenced by the shape of the molecule. Protons are bound by the nucleus and are not, therefore, at liberty to move about the molecule. The degree of polarity and the magnitude of the bond dipole will be proportional to the difference in electronegativity of the bonded atoms. Thus a OH bond is more polar than a CH bond, with the hydrogen atom of the former being more positive than the hydrogen bonded to carbon. Likewise, CCl and CLi bonds are both polar, but the carbon end is positive in the former and negative in the latter. The dipolar nature of these bonds is often indicated by a partial charge notation (***948;+/) or by an arrow pointing to the negative end of the bond.
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Old 10-08-2012, 04:23 PM   #30
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Is it synthetic? Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it unless you're going to be experiencing a lot of sub-freezing temps.

These engines aren't delicate just because their spec sheets call for something specific. Those specs have a lot more to do with getting the oil to last 15,000 miles than anything else. Just don't run it that long.
Wrong! The specs are mainly to set min operating viscosity (close to a 40W), that HTHS is at least 3.5, etc. It's best not to post on an oil thread when you know SFA about oil.
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Old 10-08-2012, 04:28 PM   #31
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LL-01 is not here. It is not a USA specification. We have a specification called API Grade, that you might not have in Europe. Get LL-01 if you can, but if you can't then get the API Grade. What's so difficult about this?
If you can't find LL01 then get ACEA A3, B3, B4 oil. Viscosity/brand etc are irrelevant.

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Old 10-08-2012, 04:42 PM   #32
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If you can't find LL01 then get ACEA A3, B3 oil. Viscosity/brand etc are irrelevant.
Why not get API Grade SM, or whatever is on the bottle in the picture?

These specs are nothing more than different ways of saying the same thing. Tomato, tomahto, red fruit that grows on a vine but they sell it as a vegetable. It's all the same thing.

Viscosity is far from irrelevent, indeed, after the Grade it is the most important thing. One can buy many viscosities of API Grade SM. ( I think the API Grade these days is more like SR, but each new Grade has the qualities of the previous Grades plus new qualities.) You can get API Grade SM or better in viscosities that range from 0w20 to 20w50, clearly the viscosity is an important quality of the oil.

Do not tell me what oil to buy, I'm not having any trouble at all. My car is happy with 10w40 that is API Grade SH or SJ, some low Grade like that, which isn't even available anymore. Tell me that there is something factually wrong with what I have said, but I do not need help buying oil. LL-01 is a spec that is on par with the API Grade, and BMW puts the API Grade in the USA version of the operator's manual, they do not list LL-01 in any user documents that are delivered with the vehicles, or is LL-01 listed in the service guide that is used for vehicle repairs.
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Old 10-08-2012, 05:05 PM   #33
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Why is it like that over there? O.o I guess that would be too much info for an average user... In Europe, basicly 99% of oils, made by big companies, have labels that contain info similar to this:
They usually have them on the back, but it's not nearly as easy to read as that. It's usually just one big freaking line of text. Really annoying.
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Old 10-08-2012, 05:06 PM   #34
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Why not get API Grade SM, or whatever is on the bottle in the picture?

These specs are nothing more than different ways of saying the same thing. Tomato, tomahto, red fruit that grows on a vine but they sell it as a vegetable. It's all the same thing.

Viscosity is far from irrelevent, indeed, after the Grade it is the most important thing. One can buy many viscosities of API Grade SM. ( I think the API Grade these days is more like SR, but each new Grade has the qualities of the previous Grades plus new qualities.) You can get API Grade SM or better in viscosities that range from 0w20 to 20w50, clearly the viscosity is an important quality of the oil.

Do not tell me what oil to buy, I'm not having any trouble at all. My car is happy with 10w40 that is API Grade SH or SJ, some low Grade like that, which isn't even available anymore. Tell me that there is something factually wrong with what I have said, but I do not need help buying oil. LL-01 is a spec that is on par with the API Grade, and BMW puts the API Grade in the USA version of the operator's manual, they do not list LL-01 in any user documents that are delivered with the vehicles, or is LL-01 listed in the service guide that is used for vehicle repairs.
SM isn't a spec, just as 5W30 isn't a spec. A 30W oil ranges from a 20W at the low end of the SAE scale to a 40W at the high end. An E46 requires an oil of approx 12.0 cSt @ 100C, a miminum HTHS of 3.5 etc. Nearly all commonly available XW30's don't come close to meeting these specs. BMW 5W30 LL01 does, it's nearly a 40W at operating temperature, HTHS exceeds 3.5 etc. BMW spent millions in conjunction with the oil companies developing the LL01 spec. Best if people follow it
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:17 PM   #35
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SM isn't a spec, just as 5W30 isn't a spec. A 30W oil ranges from a 20W at the low end of the SAE scale to a 40W at the high end. An E46 requires an oil of approx 12.0 cSt @ 100C, a miminum HTHS of 3.5 etc. Nearly all commonly available XW30's don't come close to meeting these specs. BMW 5W30 LL01 does, it's nearly a 40W at operating temperature, HTHS exceeds 3.5 etc. BMW spent millions in conjunction with the oil companies developing the LL01 spec. Best if people follow it
I'd like to see something that says API Grade isn't a spec for the quality of the oil in the bottle. The SAE (Society of Automobile Engineers) surely feels that the API Grade defines the quality of the oil, and the American Petroleum Institute feels that it defines specifications that are put on the bottles.

All of the relevent information for this discussion, and more, can be found here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil


I find it interesting, humorous really, that you guys insist on LL-01, but change it on a short interval. The whole purpose of the LL-01 (long life standard) is to create and designate a motor oil that can stay in the engine longer than previous oils. Germans in particular, and Europeans in general, actively seek to reduce the contents of the waste stream. They want everything to come out of the car in a way to facilitate recycling, and they have insisted for years that fewer fastenters be used so there is a (among other things) smaller carbon footprint in the making of pretty much everything. They changed the design from taking 15 screws to hold it together to taking 5. If there are a million of whatever was held with 15 screws, now it takes 10 million fewer screws, this is a significant reduction of using resources and filling the landfill with stuff that does not need to go there.

Oil is a resource that they are trying hard to reduce the consumption of so they work nights and weekends trying to make motor oil last longer. The result is LL-01, and API Grade SN, which has corrosion inhibitors and other additives to help it last more than 16,000 miles in a gasoline engine, and 31,000 miles in a diesel engine, yet you tell people to change the oil even less than the 15,000 miles that the automaker suggests. Why insist on LL-01 and throw it away in less than half of its service life? If you are going to change the oil early then use cat-pee because you are not getting the full use of the good stuff anyhow.

If I can read the Wikipedia article, BMW came out with LL-01 because the API did not test fast enough to keep up with what BMW wanted. After the dust settled, in the USA, you can use API Grade SN, and be comfortable that your oil will lubricate your engine as longer than BMW has set the Oil Change Interval.

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Old 10-08-2012, 06:32 PM   #36
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I'd like to see something that says API Grade isn't a spec for the quality of the oil in the bottle. The SAE (Society of Automobile Engineers) surely feels that the API Grade defines the quality of the oil, and the American Petroleum Institute feels that it defines specifications that are put on the bottles.

All of the relevent information for this discussion, and more, can be found here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil


I find it interesting, humorous really, that you guys insist on LL-01, but change it on a short interval. The whole purpose of the LL-01 (long life standard) is to create and designate a motor oil that can stay in the engine longer than previous oils. Germans in particular, and Europeans in general, actively seek to reduce the contents of the waste stream. They want everything to come out of the car in a way to facilitate recycling, and they have insisted for years that fewer fastenters be used so there is a (among other things) smaller carbon footprint in the making of pretty much everything. They changed the design from taking 15 screws to hold it together to taking 5. If there are a million of whatever was held with 15 screws, now it takes 10 million fewer screws, this is a significant reduction of using resources and filling the landfill with stuff that does not need to go there.

Oil is a resource that they are trying hard to reduce the consumption of so they work nights and weekends trying to make motor oil last longer. The result is LL-01, and API Grade SN, which has corrosion inhibitors and other additives to help it last more than 16,000 miles in a gasoline engine, and 31,000 miles in a diesel engine, yet you tell people to change the oil even less than the 15,000 miles that the automaker suggests. Why insist on LL-01 and throw it away in less than half of its service life? If you are going to change the oil early then use cat-pee because you are not getting the full use of the good stuff anyhow.

If I can read the Wikipedia article, BMW came out with LL-01 because the API did not test fast enough to keep up with what BMW wanted. After the dust settled, in the USA, you can use API Grade SN, and be comfortable that your oil will lubricate your engine as longer than BMW has set the Oil Change Interval.
Your just not getting this so let's try another tack. Castrol for example, have 22 totally different 5W30 oils on their TDS site. Every single one has different viscosity between 20W and 40W, different HTHS (High Temp High Shear), different pumpability, different NOACK volatility, etc etc but every single one is SM rated. Now do you understand LL01 and SM have nothing to do with each other?
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:58 AM   #37
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Do you suppose that all oil in the USA is LL-01? Or, that there is no LL-01 here.

We have consumer protection rules here that do not allow a manufacturer to require their own products to maintain a car. We cannot be bent over and told, "use this product or we're not gonna cover the warranty." We can be bent over and told, "you have to have service done or we won't cover the warranty," but the products used in the performance of that service cannot be required to be the maker's own products.

You cannot use Joe's Brakes and expect BMW to honor the warranty service if they don't work, but BMW can only require oil changes on an particular interval and that the oil meet a common specification, API Grade SM, or whatever, is that specification.

The light weight oil that they call for has more to do with corporate fuel economy than with the individual needs of a specific engine. Oil that it too light has always been more of a problem for an automobile engine than oil that's too thick. Indeed, as an engine ages, it was common to push the oil from 30 weight ot 40 weight to control leaks and smoking and other ailments of that nature. Oil that's too thin (in the old days) did not protect the metal parts that it is designed to protect. Now, oil is far different than when I was a kid, and thin oil is far superior in its ability to protect metal parts than in the days just after the invention of the first wheel.

Use light weight oil to improve fuel economy, and most automakers today call for 0w30 or 5w30, and performance cars that once used 20w50 now take 15w40 or 10w40 to reduce the overall fuel demands of the fleet.

Mere mortal automobiles, including the BMW 3 Series can take 10w30 or 10w40 for year around use in moderate climates, and will like to have 0w30 in cold climates in winter.

Be sure to use the API Grade SN or better. (the highest grade of oil on my shelf at this moment is SN, but I'm not sure how long ago I bought it. I have SR stuck in my head as the highest API Grade available today, but I don't have any of this.)
If you insist on going with a non-LL01 oil, the specs you should look for are ACEA A3/B3 and ACEA A3/B4 - oils that meet these specifications will generally meet BMW's requirements. The API ratings don't really have much of a correlation to the suitability of these engines. SN certainly isn't required - these cars have been around long before the API SN specification even existed.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:05 AM   #38
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...I have never seen a bottle of oil that says it is LL-01, except I did see that spec once about a year ago at my local dealership, but on a recent trip I did not see it. There is no published spec in any User Documentation that says, LL-01. All available user documentation says API Grade SM.
Mobil 1 0W40 says "BMW Long Life-01 approved" right on the front, so does Castrol European formula 0W30 and several others. Apparently you're not looking hard enough. If you want to put the wrong stuff in your car, that's fine, but don't spread your opinion as fact. These oils all cost about the same, why risk the headache? Just use the right oil and be done with it... it baffles me that this is even an argument.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:22 AM   #39
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Apparently us BMW owners are too dumb to just look for oil that says BMW LongLife approved on the side.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:25 AM   #40
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Mobil 1 0W40 says "BMW Long Life-01 approved" right on the front, so does Castrol European formula 0W30 and several others. Apparently you're not looking hard enough. If you want to put the wrong stuff in your car, that's fine, but don't spread your opinion as fact. These oils all cost about the same, why risk the headache? Just use the right oil and be done with it... it baffles me that this is even an argument.
Agreed. And if BMWNA hadn't omitted the relevant info that is included in other countries owners manuals this confusion would never have occurred.
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