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Old 11-01-2012, 06:41 AM   #21
7to3_enthusiast
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sounds like a very frustrating situation you're in...I'm rooting for you that your shop accommodates you correctly.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:47 AM   #22
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My shop says they found an IAT after the MAF and Pelican shows the part is common among 330Cis from 01-06. More to follow, I will at least see the car on Friday. Not sure if I will be able to pickup because of all of the issues.

Back to my personal situation...

Here's my take on what should happen. I think the bill should be split accordingly. What do y'all think?

1. R&R and repair of the head and oil pan
2. Head gasket
3. cam bearing
4. plugs.
5. 1/2 time for R&R headers and actual time to tune
6. replacement of intake hoses (when THEIR oil cooler busted...and I told them to NOT hardmount to the brace in front of the a/c condensor...and sprayed oil through my radiator and fan and made a HUGE mess in the engine bay.
7. oil pump sprocket & labor (did not safety wire the nut! WTF!)
8. 5 of 7 days for my rental car (the time they were fixing all of the above)

I pay:

1. ARP head studs
2. t-band clamps on the intake
3. welding some O2 bungs
4. 1/2 R&R of the header and actual labor to tune
5. R&R exhaust
6. 2 of 7 days for my rental car (the estimated time it will take them to tune the car)
7. Fuel consumed during the tuning.
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:15 PM   #23
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what is the production date of your car



Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
My shop says they found an IAT after the MAF and Pelican shows the part is common among 330Cis from 01-06. More to follow, I will at least see the car on Friday. Not sure if I will be able to pickup because of all of the issues.

Back to my personal situation...

Here's my take on what should happen. I think the bill should be split accordingly. What do y'all think?

1. R&R and repair of the head and oil pan
2. Head gasket
3. cam bearing
4. plugs.
5. 1/2 time for R&R headers and actual time to tune
6. replacement of intake hoses (when THEIR oil cooler busted...and I told them to NOT hardmount to the brace in front of the a/c condensor...and sprayed oil through my radiator and fan and made a HUGE mess in the engine bay.
7. oil pump sprocket & labor (did not safety wire the nut! WTF!)
8. 5 of 7 days for my rental car (the time they were fixing all of the above)

I pay:

1. ARP head studs
2. t-band clamps on the intake
3. welding some O2 bungs
4. 1/2 R&R of the header and actual labor to tune
5. R&R exhaust
6. 2 of 7 days for my rental car (the estimated time it will take them to tune the car)
7. Fuel consumed during the tuning.
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:31 PM   #24
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07/03. Ms45 non-ZHP

I do not monitor anything.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:00 PM   #25
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Just went back to the track this weekend and it did pretty well. Ambient temps were low 80s so it is significantly cooler here in TX.

I think what happened was the original tune post-rebuild was too lean and just f'd everything. It would have been fine except I kept going to the track. I'm thinking that FI'd non-Ms cannot handle 100's on the track even with an oil cooler. I could use meth instead of isoalcohol but that's a bandaid on a bandaid.

The MS45 takes IATs from the MAF whereas the MS43s took IATs from the intake manifold. Even my limited run TS intake mani has a plug for an IAT. Easy, right? Just snip the wires to the MAF and then run them to an OE BMW IAT. Apparently there is a circuit inside of the MAF which steps the voltage down from 12v to 5v. My shop is trying to dissect and MS45 MAF and rig up a sensor to put into the mani but that's not a solution I want to take. What if I need to replace the sensor? Just more electronics to fail as well. And then who knows what other issues that will create. I don't see why any company would further develop an FI system/tune for track use because most people have sense and go with a just as capable E36 or E46 M3.

I'm considering a stand alone ECU at this point. Its going to be a track car so I'm willing to sacrifice streetability. I would like to keep the ABS so I'm wondering if I lose that if I scrap the OE DME. I'm being told that ABS is an entirely separate module but I'm not willing to believe the Germans, especially BMW, made something simple and non-integrated.

Last edited by bigjae1976; 11-05-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:37 PM   #26
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Like most sensors, the IAT uses a 5volt reference. Most car manufactures moved the IAT sensor off the intake manifold because they tend to heatsoak. The thing is your need to find a IAT sensor that has the same resistance curve as the IAT sensor inside the MAF. I dont know if the MS43 IAT has the same curve as the IAT found inside the MAF of the MS45's. Most ecus share the same reference voltage line with a lot of other sensors that use 5volt reference. Im thinking if anything you can pull the voltage from the TPS.

Last edited by sunnyjay; 11-05-2012 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:23 PM   #27
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Just so there's no confusion...this thread is not questioning just one FI company. I'm taking them ALL on so AA, ESS, VF, or whomever else made an MS45 kit should address this to customers that intend to use their FI's MS45 330 on the track. Because everyone wants to hear that their kits can take anything to include track abuse so they can sell more kits. For the sake of other fanatics...I don't think that's true. This is a discussion to either prove me wrong (which I really hope because I like driving my car on the track), to develop a fix, or to just leave it alone and render an FI'd M45 330 a ticking bomb on the track.

Also, I have not and will not go to AA to tell them they need to pay for my motor because that is ridiculous. There have been some shop missteps that AA is not accountable or responsible for. Not saying that AA seemed all knowing either which, IMO, they should if they sell and tune FI kits for a car. With that said, both sides are working hard to fix this.

Be AWARE that my car sees a service requirement that you do not normally see on this forum. Dyno runs are child's play. This kit sees real abuse in real tough conditions.

Last edited by bigjae1976; 11-05-2012 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:48 AM   #28
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Jae what are your AFRs? Mine is running lean atm and I haven't taken it to the track until I sort out the lean issue.

And I don't trust off-the-shelf flash FI tunes. Live tune only @ the limit.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:33 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Just so there's no confusion...this thread is not questioning just one FI company. I'm taking them ALL on so AA, ESS, VF, or whomever else made an MS45 kit should address this to customers that intend to use their FI's MS45 330 on the track. Because everyone wants to hear that their kits can take anything to include track abuse so they can sell more kits. For the sake of other fanatics...I don't think that's true.
Personally, I've always gotten the feeling that AA pushes the motors toward the ragged edge of their durability when it comes to their FI kits. ESS has always been reserved about pushing the engines to their limits.

I've also noticed that there have been a lot of issues with tunes with AA that have been magically fixed with a new tune. ESS has also had 1 or 2 such issues but it seems that AA has a much bigger issue with this. Maybe they just sell more kits, therefore percentage of error by sales may be the same.

Maybe I'm just a lucky one, but my motor gets beaten a lot and I've never had an issue out of it. Like I said, many mountains runs, too many autocrosses in the dead of summer, day at Road Atlanta, Carolina Motorsports Park, and most recently, 3 hours of driving at Atlanta Motorsports Park (AMP). Drove sooo much there that I wore down a completely brand new set of R888's nearly down to the wear bars.

I know AA sells a lot of kits. They do this because in a lot of their advertising they claim more power than any other kit out there, which is almost always 100% true. But how do they get there? They push their kits to the limit. They have an aggressive tune and probably push the limit of boost that the engine can handle. Great for power, but when something starts to go wrong, it goes wrong quickly. There is no safety net to fall back on.

I have never had any major concerns with my TS system in the over 70,000 miles I've had it. My MS45 ESS TS2 runs flawlessly and every time I step on the throttle, it puts a smile on my face.

I think you are just in a bad situation with a kit that had a very short production run, a kit that was already pushing the limits of your engine, and now you are compounding your issues with people that don't know how to work on your car.

Something else to think about....... ESS never came out with a twinscrew stage 3 kit (14-15 lbs boost?) for the MS45 engine management. Only for the MS43. Food for thought.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:52 PM   #30
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@MsportBMW...around 12.2. I'm getting AA to drop the redline to 6500 and then get back on the dyno.

@Minnoe...I have the equivalent of an ESS TS2+ and I'm at between 10psi with the ATI damper (now destroyed...that's another story that I'm pissed off about) and 11psi with the OEM damper. I don't disagree with your assessment of your car but mine has seen 35+ minute sessions in 100+ degree texas heat bouncing between 5k - 7k RPM and about 19 days since the original rebuild. While you can question the work of the shop that I am using (I have myself) they did bring up a good point about post compressor IATs. But I also question that because there are people like you with ESS kits doing the same thing with a similar design in respect to monitoring IATs after the compressor.

I will admit that my car is living the life of a rockstar on crank, coke, meth, speed, and red bull...it will die early. You can PM me for what I really think about this IAT stuff. I told my shop again, don't think for a second that I believe a torn ICV hose did this damage...not even for a moment.

As far as track duty? FI is a waste of money if you ask me. Because you can get the still superior M3 for not much more.
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:53 AM   #31
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No forced induction setup should run the IAT sensor BEFORE the compressor/turbo. That is just plain faulty engineering and a recipe for disaster. The sensor needs to be post-compressor/charge cooler so the ECU gets an accurate measure of the charge temp entering the cylinders. With the sensor before the compressor, there's no way to compensate for a faulty charge cooler or heat soak.

And for the record, the MS45's IAT sensor transfer function is DIFFERENT than that of the MS41/42/43 IAT sensor. Don't think you can just replace one for the other and your problems are solved.
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:52 AM   #32
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Quote:
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No forced induction setup should run the IAT sensor BEFORE the compressor/turbo. That is just plain faulty engineering and a recipe for disaster. The sensor needs to be post-compressor/charge cooler so the ECU gets an accurate measure of the charge temp entering the cylinders. With the sensor before the compressor, there's no way to compensate for a faulty charge cooler or heat soak.

And for the record, the MS45's IAT sensor transfer function is DIFFERENT than that of the MS41/42/43 IAT sensor. Don't think you can just replace one for the other and your problems are solved.
So maybe in my case (original tune,pre-current build) AA made the car run rich as a pre-compensation for when heatsoak kicks in. I would have been OK with that but it has never been explained to me that way.

I'm leaning more towards a standalone ECU. I don't think my shop can really splice out the IAT in the MAF and install it in the intake mani. I'm not sure I'm willing to spend the $$$ to do that. Rather just go with a stand alone so I can tune the car myself and not need to deal with remote tuning and needless complications for a track car.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:41 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickG View Post
And for the record, the MS45's IAT sensor transfer function is DIFFERENT than that of the MS41/42/43 IAT sensor. Don't think you can just replace one for the other and your problems are solved.
How can we solve this? If you don't want to share this with the rest of the crowd. Could you pm me?

Thanks
Anthony
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:14 PM   #34
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How can we solve this? If you don't want to share this with the rest of the crowd. Could you pm me?

Thanks
Anthony
Buy a TT kit.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:44 PM   #35
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buy a tt kit.
haha...
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:24 PM   #36
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How can we solve this? If you don't want to share this with the rest of the crowd. Could you pm me?

Thanks
Anthony
The ECU first needs to be programmed with the transfer function of the IAT sensor used. Then you'll have to redo the tuning to take into account the real air temps that the ECU is now seeing.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:46 AM   #37
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Quote:
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The ECU first needs to be programmed with the transfer function of the IAT sensor used. Then you'll have to redo the tuning to take into account the real air temps that the ECU is now seeing.
Thank you NickG...

-Anthony

Last edited by TrippinBimmer; 11-09-2012 at 12:48 AM.
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