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Old 11-05-2012, 11:34 AM   #21
MarcusLSB
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Originally Posted by 323tom View Post
Was mavericks car tightened by hpf or is giken? I am going to email the rep at OSG I'm dealing with to see if the TCD diff is the same

Read about the TCD diff OSG offers you may change your post
Unless I'm mistaken all OS Giken diffs are "TCD". You can setup the lock under acceleration independently of the lock under decel. Once again though, you must send it to OS Giken for this to be performed as it involves changing springs and what not.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:44 AM   #22
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The OSG LSD is designed specifically FOR road race use to lock up better coming out of a turn. It is a performance enhancement that is not free. It is fairly expensive. I dont think I have read yet of an owner who wished they had not bought one. But, remember, all these owners did their own research and knew what they could and could not expect of of an OSG LSD. It was never specifically designed to help straight line drag racing acceleration, although many(most? all? not sure) find some degree of improved straight line grip. MOST significantly seen in cars that previously would go sideways due to one tire spinning differently than the other. Is there anything that I mis stated so far?

Jake, I think that you are only going to see major traction improvements in second gear if your car was constantly spinning only one tire. That is not your situation. You MAY see some better straight line traction if you install an OSG LSD, but not as much if your car was going sideways all the time currently. Your OEM diff seems to be doing a great job. Even so, the OEM LSD may wear eventually IDK the answer to that. ANyone? According to OSG no one including racers has yet to have to rebuild one of their Super lock ups. So, there is that...

So, in your case you may actually want to explore different options to increase your traction. You may not like them, but going to a 17 inch 315mm in a high sidewall R888 or a drag radial may be direction to consider. That is only one option.

and/or

Find out what the guys cars are doing who are running the expensive but super sticky Hoosier A-6's in 18 inch.
There is no one best way to go to increase your traction using tire compound and size. But you may get more bang for your buck pursuing that venue.
i believe you do have several different choices you could make.

As much as I believe in the Super lock up, I really wonder if its going to do all that you need it to do....not when you are slipping both tires so equally presently.

Good Luck.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:56 AM   #23
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Thanks Dave, very helpful.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:05 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Bdave View Post
MOST significantly seen in cars that previously would go sideways due to one tire spinning differently than the other.
My car would get violently sideways with the OS Giken and my Falken 452's. If I lost traction it was going sideways. When driving Kenton's car with NT05's and NO OS GIKEN REAR END it would spin, but it would track straight.

The OS Giken is not going to keep you from going sideways under straight line accel, if anything it would only intensify the effects of going sideways when loosing traction. It will help PREVENT you from going sideways by providing more traction, but if you're over powering your tires the OS Giken cannot do anything to prevent the rear end from wanting to come around to the front.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:14 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusLSB View Post
My car would get violently sideways with the OS Giken and my Falken 452's. If I lost traction it was going sideways. When driving Kenton's car with NT05's and NO OS GIKEN REAR END it would spin, but it would track straight.

The OS Giken is not going to keep you from going sideways under straight line accel, if anything it would only intensify the effects of going sideways when loosing traction. It will help PREVENT you from going sideways by providing more traction, but if you're over powering your tires the OS Giken cannot do anything to prevent the rear end from wanting to come around to the front.
Also going sideways and not tracking striaght can be from alot of other things. Usually not your differential. I track straigh while spinning..... I have delrin rtab and i get alignments every six months.

And i do NOT have osg diff.

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Old 11-05-2012, 12:56 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by MarcusLSB View Post
My car would get violently sideways with the OS Giken and my Falken 452's. If I lost traction it was going sideways. When driving Kenton's car with NT05's and NO OS GIKEN REAR END it would spin, but it would track straight.

The OS Giken is not going to keep you from going sideways under straight line accel, if anything it would only intensify the effects of going sideways when loosing traction. It will help PREVENT you from going sideways by providing more traction, but if you're over powering your tires the OS Giken cannot do anything to prevent the rear end from wanting to come around to the front.
Cliff notes: The OSG LSD is no magic fix it all. It needs to be properly paired and possibly tuned to you unique situation for BEST performance.
You can stop reading HERE. You do not have read any more. Just stop.

Or ONLY if you want some more info and a link, read on:

You are 100% correct. You do need to match the adjustment of the OSG to your HP, TQ and traction afforded by what ever tires you are using.

Marucs, does your OSG work a lot better with better grip out back? And how does the Super Lock work with your PRO EFI TC? Well together, or do they fight one another?

It sounds like if you are running a lot of power you certainly need to run the best gripping rubber you can when paired with an OSG. You do not want to be violently spinning with this LSD.

If you are finding yourself constantly going sideways with an OSG, upgrade your rubber or talk to OSG about a different set of springs for a much slower lock up.
It sounds like the OSG's need at a minimum some tightening of the backlash and to run with either road race or DR compound with HPF hi HP and TQ cars for best results.

I did read where one owner comments that when your car looses traction violently when the OSG is under full lock up, a steering issue can arise.
The car is difficult to steer through a 100% lock up AND spinning situation. This supports what Marcus experienced with the Falkens

Quote by a poster (not an OSG owner)who correctly theorizes this:
"By comparison, once traction is lost with a locked diff (OS Giken under power) you cannot steer a locked diff car on steering wheel input alone eg. out of a corner or when the back flicks out! You have to steer LSD cars with the throttle as well once they lose traction. This is perfect for drifting, great for drag racing (until the car goes sideways) but terribly unsafe on public roads unless you have the feel and skill to match."

Response of OSG Tech Dept is too lengthy to post. Link is here. Go to bottom of the page:
http://www.unitrax.biz/?tag=os-giken-super-lock

Yes, and nice stiff RTABS and alignments...all this is important. The OSG LSD is no magic fix it all. It needs to be properly paired and possibly tuned to you unique situation for BEST performance. Extensive talks with their tech dept may get your OSG right the first time. It costs $$ to take it all apart and change adjustments and or springs.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:38 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Bdave View Post

Marucs, does your OSG work a lot better with better grip out back? And how does the Super Lock work with your PRO EFI TC? Well together, or do they fight one another?
I've never driven my car (while turbo'd) without the OS Giken. It was installed at the same time as my kit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdave View Post
Quote by a poster (not an OSG owner)who correctly theorizes this:
"By comparison, once traction is lost with a locked diff (OS Giken under power) you cannot steer a locked diff car on steering wheel input alone eg. out of a corner or when the back flicks out! You have to steer LSD cars with the throttle as well once they lose traction. This is perfect for drifting, great for drag racing (until the car goes sideways) but terribly unsafe on public roads unless you have the feel and skill to match."
Just like almost all racing application mods the margin for error is generally reduced. R Compound tires for example (as I'm sure you know) provide better traction, but are less audible.. and when they let loose in a corner.. they let loose.. and without warning. Same goes for a race application differential, it will want to push a bit in a corner when it locks up, and if your tires let go it will go sideways, and fast. However with significant seat time and a properly dialed in car most of these negatives are positives, just slapping a race specific part on your car and going to the track without dialing it in will almost always net negative results.. same goes for adjusting your sway bar linkage, spring rates, etc.. this is no different for your rear end.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:52 PM   #28
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Also going sideways and not tracking striaght can be from alot of other things. Usually not your differential. I track straigh while spinning..... I have delrin rtab and i get alignments every six months.

And i do NOT have osg diff.

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My car is aligned very frequently as well, and runs 100% solid from front to back.. it gets sideways .. fast.. just ask Dallas. (I have the OS Giken).

Kenton's car which is a mixture of OEM, Poly and Solid mounts tracks straight and does not have the OS Giken rear end.

You are correct though, the diff is not generally the culprit alone.. a failing rtab or subframe bushing can do it as well. **** anything really.. even as MSpired discovered, a crap tire can do it.

I'm AGAINST the suggestion that simply throwing a OS Giken in the rear solves your 'sideways' problems as some have suggested. Truth be told it amplified mine.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:53 PM   #29
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Here's a great description of an adjustable LSD. (Yes its for gran turismo, but standard physics still apply).

http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=203009
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:37 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by MarcusLSB View Post
I've never driven my car (while turbo'd) without the OS Giken. It was installed at the same time as my kit.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusLSB View Post
My car is aligned very frequently as well, and runs 100% solid from front to back.. it gets sideways .. fast.. just ask Dallas. (I have the OS Giken).

I'm AGAINST the suggestion that simply throwing a OS Giken in the rear solves your 'sideways' problems as some have suggested. Truth be told it amplified mine.
After reading your experiences I cant see any reason why you would want to have this on your car. Why dont you get rid of it? Or at least try and tune it?

It may be something very simple like locking up WAY too fast. If properly adjusted your car should NOT be going sideways with the OSG. You have not called or emailed them about this? Sounds absolutely terrible...like it needs much stronger springs to SLOW the lock up speed. Your power level is probably well over what OSG has it set up for out of the box.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:55 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Bdave View Post
After reading your experiences I cant see any reason why you would want to have this on your car. Why dont you get rid of it? Or at least try and tune it?

It may be something very simple like locking up WAY too fast. If properly adjusted your car should NOT be going sideways with the OSG. You have not called or emailed them about this? Sounds absolutely terrible...like it needs much stronger springs to SLOW the lock up speed. Your power level is probably well over what OSG has it set up for out of the box.
Page and a half behind... hmm

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Old 11-05-2012, 04:09 PM   #32
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I'm NOT blaming the OS Giken. I'm stating it is not the solution to going sideways. Sorry if I wasn't making that clear.

Dallas can also attest that with slicks on my car at 130mph spinning them to the point of smoking for like 1/8th a mile the car went straight as an arrow.

I think the biggest issue with the sideways action before was related to the lack of sidewall on my other tires, they were ever so slightly stretched, meaning almost no play in the sidewall.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:49 PM   #33
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One other experience id like to share. I tried a non hubcentric spacer to test fit what i should get from hnr. I left it on for a day to make aure no rubbing would happen. But when i got on the gas it would throw my car over a lane. So a bent rim or anyrhing like that will cause you to track horrible while under max load and spinning.

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Old 11-06-2012, 11:30 AM   #34
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I'm NOT blaming the OS Giken. I'm stating it is not the solution to going sideways. Sorry if I wasn't making that clear.

Dallas can also attest that with slicks on my car at 130mph spinning them to the point of smoking for like 1/8th a mile the car went straight as an arrow.

I think the biggest issue with the sideways action before was related to the lack of sidewall on my other tires, they were ever so slightly stretched, meaning almost no play in the sidewall.
Marcus I cant keep all your tire set ups straight. Didnt you at one time have a 17 inch rear set up which would have had a nice high side wall? What is your current street set up and sidewall now, and does your car still go sideways?

I am convinced your OSG LSD is NOT set up correctly for your power output. Its locking up way too fast. It should not clunk either!

None the less, thanks so much for posting Marcus. And being so candid. You have brought up some really serious shortcomings of not the OSG product, but the way they sell and market it.
It SHOULD keep your car straight if they bothered to make it much clearer that having it adjusted with the right setting is very critical...especially in the case of too FAST of a lock up...which is what you are getting. And what most any HPF owner on race gas and high boost (or E85) is going to get.
I braced Mark Mendoza of OSG pretty hard on this issue...like WHAT IS the RWHP and TQ that their Super Lock is set up for OUT OF THE BOX. They dont tell us..anywhere. I am waiting for that info.

He did send me a lot of info on what he thinks YOUR set up should be. He mistakenly thinks you are going sideways on a turn, not in straight line acceleration. I pointed that out to him and am waiting to see if any thing changes.

Mark is very aware of the video game descriptions. So much so, that he was thinking about offering his services to correct some key errors. More in detail on that in his email which i am posting.

He also mentions that if two of the clutches are disabled (part of the proper set up for 800rwhp M3's) then there may be "premature wear". I told him that phrases like that are the kiss of death on our forum and reason for guys NOT to buy. He better very much clear up what he means. I am thinking that means the clutches will only last half a lifetime instead of a lifetime. On one hand they claim never having to rebuild a single unit and on the other hand talk about premature wear. I need that all discussed more in detail. Awaiting a reply.
Here is his email. All I did was give him a link to this thread and this was his reply.

Hi David,
Thanks for your message.
If Marcus has a high power car with wide tires etc. and depending on his suspension
setup, the standard SPEC-S tune on OS LSD might not be optimal. At a minimum we might
suggest a slower lock timing, and/or a lower angle on the accel cam.
Since the OS LSD has 100% lock capability, he will of course be going sideways if he is
heavy on throttle through the turns, especially so if the settings are not optimized for
his use.
Regarding the guide for LSD adjustment.... I'm a bit shocked. I love my video games just
like anyone else, and the in-game explanation for initial torque etc. is not inaccurate.
But, the way you can drive your car in GT4 isn't 100% accurate to a real-world scenario.
Plus, the programming in the game for the LSD function would definitely not be accurate
to how an OS LSD works, unless there is a setting to adjust lock timing progression
relative to the cam angles (accel/decel). It's funny that you mention this; I have often
thought about trying to work with one of those game developers to model an accurate LSD
function for an OS LSD. In the end, though, it would be a whole lot of work and would
definitely give an unfair advantage to game-players equipped with a virtual "OS
LSD"

As far as Marcus' situation goes:
The standard setting for the LSD he has (E46 M3) is 25/38-336-10-10S. If he has not done
anything to the diff then the settings should be this way (1.5 way cam, 25deg decel /
38deg accel, 336kg lock timing and 10 plates per side).
If he's getting too much oversteer in the corners, he should try a 448kg lock timing
setting and maybe even a 25/35 cam. I would leave all the plates activated but he could
get away with shutting off 1 or maybe 2 sets if desired (might induce extra wear on the
disks, though.)

Hope this helps!

Regards,

Mark Mendoza

Like I said. I braced him pretty hard about not making it MUCH clearer what RWHP and TQ the OSG Super Lock is set up for OUT OF THE BOX.
And why they did not make it much clearer the repercussions of a lock uo that is way too FAST. They really gloss over the adjustable part of the OSG. I am waiting for another reply. I will post his response and some yet untold critical data.


We really need to know WHAT the out of the box HP and TQ compatibility is.
We need to have these units set up much better right from the factory BEFORE they are installed. Yanking them out and having to do adjustments is very expensive. It is something that should be avoided by trying to get it right the FIRST time!

Marcus, maybe you can talk to this guy directly if you are interested in getting your OSG optimized. I dont think you need to send this back, but it would entail removal. You need to give him better info on over and under steer, suspension, tires, etc I have PM's you his Email. He is a great guy, but I am still a very much miffed at the company for not disclosing/explaining certain things better.

Actually I am giving out Mark's email right here. Anyone who HAs a Super Lock Up or is thinking about buying one, please email this guy and make SURE you get a unit that is custom set up for you particular situation. I dont think they charge any extra for this.

Mark_Mendoza@taiamerica.com Mark underscore Mendoza etc.

Mark M. has been great and very swift and candid with his emails
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:59 PM   #35
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Back again..soon. Mark from OSG is blazing fast in his Email replies.

First we find out that the OSG Supr Lock for our M3's are set up for 270 rwhp..bone stock car. That is a FAR cry from HPF power levels. Every single unit is locking up faster than ideal...MUCH faster than ideal.
He has a fantastic Proposal!! read his Email.

Hi David,
We appreciate all your efforts on the forums to help educate the masses about OS LSD, and
I'm glad to help out however possible. It's a bit of a slippery-slope when talking about
getting the best setting out of the box, since each vehicle and usage is not identical.

The standard setting that we put out (SPEC-S) is designed to provide the best overall
performance for the majority of customers. For the BMW guys this means something
relatively close to stock trim, to keep the diff running smooth/quiet while still able to
provide excellent traction. Based on driver feedback we can suggest an optimized tune,
but it's case-by-case as to what we think would work best. For our guys that do auto-x,
daily driving, track days etc. the SPEC-S setting works pretty well.

What I would suggest for HPF to do is offer a "high power" tune LSD, which
would be a custom build (SPEC-X). A less aggressive accel cam and slower lock timing
would work best for the guys running big power. Conversely, running a "high
power" tune on a lower power car might now allow the diff to lock enough and cause
some wheelspin issues etc.

SPEC-X LSD's cost a little more and take longer to go through production (due to the
custom setting), but if HPF is willing to keep some in stock then I can have a small
batch (minimum 5 units) produced with identical "high power" settings and then
I should be able to negotiate the pricing to be around the same as the normal SPEC-S
version. I can even get the HPF logo lasermarked on the LSD case as a co-branded deal or
something.


Anyway, talk to you soon!

Regards,

Mark Mendoza

Toyota Tsusho America, Inc.
OS Giken USA
1977 W. 190th St. Suite 200
Torrance, CA 90504
Tel: (310) 243-1313
Fax: (310) 516-0858
www.osgiken.net


How cool is that? A correct tune, and a neat special Edition HPF laser etched logo. Maybe on the diff plate too where it can be seen?
IDK if the other laser etch is visible once installed.

This is just a proposal. HPF may not be interested. I will let Chris know and let those guys hash out any details. I hope they do it. Everybody wins!


A one on one custom set up is always available. Email or talk to Mark directly.

A correction tune, putting a slower lock timing for existing HPF OSG units costs 125usd plus parts. Send the LSD minus ring gear back to OSG. Call or email Mark for more details.

Mark_Mendoza@taiamerica.com (Mark underscore Mendoza etc)

Jake, please READ the OSG website and ALL the testimonials. There is a lot of information in the testimonials..quite a bit. Some M3's in there too!
Call or write to Mark anytime. He will bend over backwards to answer all your questions.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:06 PM   #36
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Mods please delete this mistaken post.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:08 PM   #37
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Mods please delete this mistaken post
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:09 PM   #38
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I went sideways on street tires.
I go straight as an arrow (while spinning) on slicks.
Pretty straight on R888's as well.. but thats with traction control (when loosing traction).
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:16 PM   #39
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You and your fancy traction control. Take that sh!t somewhere else....





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Old 11-06-2012, 09:21 PM   #40
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I used to complain about going sideways a lot but after I got an alignment done in the rear, my car goes pretty straight. It was toe out in the rear, did toe in and now it's as straight as an arrow with no traction control. I think it's all in the wheel alignment. I asked John at HPF about going sideways before and he also said it has a lot to do with the alignment.
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