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Old 10-08-2013, 12:14 PM   #1
Shazam3
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SMG: Aftermarket clutch - FT gear change delay

I have a SMG with SB Stage 4. On full throttle, there seems to be delay in gear engagement. The SMG gear # blinks and you have to lift off the gas in order for next gear to get engaged. Very annoying!

Anyone with SMG and an aftermarket clutch setup with same issues/fix?


S
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Old 10-08-2013, 03:48 PM   #2
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SMG: Aftermarket clutch - FT gear change delay

Yes I have has the same problem from time to time as have other HPF SMG owners. One of the reasons I am making the swap to manual. It hasn't been talked about by HPF publicly as far as I can tell. The only thing they said in their support documentation was to call them. Hard to do know
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Old 10-08-2013, 03:49 PM   #3
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SMG: Aftermarket clutch - FT gear change delay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shazam3 View Post
I have a SMG with SB Stage 4. On full throttle, there seems to be delay in gear engagement. The SMG gear # blinks and you have to lift off the gas in order for next gear to get engaged. Very annoying!

Anyone with SMG and an aftermarket clutch setup with same issues/fix?


S
Probably It's the fact at high rpm there is not enough reserve pressure supplied by the accumulator. The pressure that the DME is looking for is between 29 bar and 41 bar so u won't get a cog light warning, yet if it's below 35 bar it will not shift quickly at high rpm with a aftermarket high horse power clutch. U can get around it temporarily by resetting the adaptations and re train ur SMG in low boost running it hard right away. Then increase to high boost and make some runs. I'm looking at getting the accumulator recharged to 41 bar. Should solve the problem.



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Old 10-08-2013, 06:49 PM   #4
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Probably It's the fact at high rpm there is not enough reserve pressure supplied by the accumulator. The pressure that the DME is looking for is between 29 bar and 41 bar so u won't get a cog light warning, yet if it's below 35 bar it will not shift quickly at high rpm with a aftermarket high horse power clutch. U can get around it temporarily by resetting the adaptations and re train ur SMG in low boost running it hard right away. Then increase to high boost and make some runs. I'm looking at getting the accumulator recharged to 41 bar. Should solve the problem.



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interesting, I too have an active autowerks supercharged SMG that does this very same thing, my clutch is a "Spec" stage 2 and my car is only making 405rwhp. but sounds identical to what I experience. Light to moderate throttle all is normal but wide open throttle shifts are horrible even more so in the higher gears, 4th, 5th clutch is not slipping however
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:54 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shazam3 View Post
I have a SMG with SB Stage 4. On full throttle, there seems to be delay in gear engagement. The SMG gear # blinks and you have to lift off the gas in order for next gear to get engaged. Very annoying!

Anyone with SMG and an aftermarket clutch setup with same issues/fix?


S
Your SMG controller is not sensing full clutch release at higher engine speeds. Have you run through all the SMG adaptations and clutch procedures in DIS or INPA? Start there..
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:33 PM   #6
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Thanks for the replies. I am planning on getting a less harsher SB clutch made from Kevlar material, pressure plate with less force, and a feshly resurfaced flywheel installed soon. Will post back results. I hope this will eliminate the issue for good!
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:07 AM   #7
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interesting, I too have an active autowerks supercharged SMG that does this very same thing, my clutch is a "Spec" stage 2 and my car is only making 405rwhp. but sounds identical to what I experience. Light to moderate throttle all is normal but wide open throttle shifts are horrible even more so in the higher gears, 4th, 5th clutch is not slipping however
Interesting to hear about your issue as you are also running a stock ecu. The HPF AEM setup may be dealing with other shifting related issues since the HPF system had an AEM EMS and the factory ecu piggybacked, and both communicated with the SMG computer.

I am hoping that the clutch swap will solve Sheraz's shifting issues, however we are also futher probing the stock ecu to change the shift speed that may also help with the issue. It is a problem that will need to be addressed for the stage 2 and higher SMG cars. One potential solution is to go to a twin disc clutch which we will be installing in a SMG car shortly.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:08 AM   #8
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Your SMG controller is not sensing full clutch release at higher engine speeds. Have you run through all the SMG adaptations and clutch procedures in DIS or INPA? Start there..
Multiple times at multiple shops. The car also has a new release bearing, clutch fork, pivot pin, and slave cylinder. We also pulled the trans to inspect the clutch/pp/etc.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:37 AM   #9
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SMG: Aftermarket clutch - FT gear change delay

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@maximumpsi View Post
Interesting to hear about your issue as you are also running a stock ecu. The HPF AEM setup may be dealing with other shifting related issues since the HPF system had an AEM EMS and the factory ecu piggybacked, and both communicated with the SMG computer.

I am hoping that the clutch swap will solve Sheraz's shifting issues, however we are also futher probing the stock ecu to change the shift speed that may also help with the issue. It is a problem that will need to be addressed for the stage 2 and higher SMG cars. One potential solution is to go to a twin disc clutch which we will be installing in a SMG car shortly.
FYI Hpf uses a relay that taps into the SMG slave circuit which tells the AEM to retard timing during shift to reduce torque. It also uses the anti lag rally style in AEM do do this. Other than that the factory DME does all the shifting etc... The problem I believe is with the amount of pressure needed to engage clutch at high rpm high gear shifts the accumulator needs to be closest to the highest pressure possible @ 41 bar. Inpa allows u to check it.. It's like that's trans is having a hard time finding the gear. Error code 114 is common with the delay. Just my 2 cents worth


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Old 10-10-2013, 01:38 PM   #10
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FYI Hpf uses a relay that taps into the SMG slave circuit which tells the AEM to retard timing during shift to reduce torque. It also uses the anti lag rally style in AEM do do this. Other than that the factory DME does all the shifting etc... The problem I believe is with the amount of pressure needed to engage clutch at high rpm high gear shifts the accumulator needs to be closest to the highest pressure possible @ 41 bar. Inpa allows u to check it.. It's like that's trans is having a hard time finding the gear. Error code 114 is common with the delay. Just my 2 cents worth


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I appreciate any input. It's good info for all parties involved. We weren't getting any errors when Sheraz' car was at the shop.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:58 PM   #11
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CSL SMG software may help shift faster.

There is a source selling SMG SOFTWARE which can be used on all of the BMWs.

It comes with a cable / software.

Its approx 7000 USD as far as I remember
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:18 PM   #12
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CSL SMG software may help shift faster.

There is a source selling SMG SOFTWARE which can be used on all of the BMWs.

It comes with a cable / software.

Its approx 7000 USD as far as I remember
We have tried flashing the CSL software on another car and it didn't seem to help. I don't remember if we tried on his car. The CSL software shifted notably faster, which will only complicate the issue if I am diagnosing it correctly.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:36 AM   #13
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SMG: Aftermarket clutch - FT gear change delay

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@maximumpsi View Post
We have tried flashing the CSL software on another car and it didn't seem to help. I don't remember if we tried on his car. The CSL software shifted notably faster, which will only complicate the issue if I am diagnosing it correctly.
I found that adaptations being run have a positive effect on this if the SMG is retrained for it particularly. The way I retrain the SMG after adaptations reset is I take the car and literally run the crap out of it for several full pulls in lower gears first then work my way up. Need to have sport button on and in s6. U will notice the clutch shuttering and slipping during the process and that's normal for the retrain. If this is not done I found that the shift has a delay. As my clutch wears I need to do this more often depending on how hard I'm driving the car. The old theory break it in how ur going to drive it...


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Old 10-14-2013, 12:09 PM   #14
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I found that adaptations being run have a positive effect on this if the SMG is retrained for it particularly. The way I retrain the SMG after adaptations is I take the car and literally run the crap out of it for several full pulls in lower gears first then work my way up. Need to have sport button on and in s6. U will notice the clutch shuttering and slipping during the process and that's normal for the retrain. If this is not done I found that the shift has a delay. As my clutch wears I need to do this more often depending on how hard I'm driving the car. The old theory break it in how ur going to drive it...


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That is good info.
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:23 PM   #15
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The DME doesn't do any shifting. All it does is regulate engine speed, torque ramp, and rev-match. The CSL software just does it a lot faster, while still taking shift-condition queues from the SMG controller via CAN BUS.

Clutch dis/engagement is somewhat regulated by driver demand torque (your foot on the gas), hence the varying levels of aggressiveness. There's definitely some communication logic being skewed between the SMG controller and DME.

Your clutch may not be fully disengaging (excessive drag on the flywheel) causing the calculated and actual demand torque measurements to be off. If that's the case the DME will not send a signal to the SMG controller to proceed with the shift until the calculated and demand torques fall within acceptable parameters. That's most likely why you're having to do it manually with the accelerator pedal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin_Turbo_S54 View Post
CSL SMG software may help shift faster.

There is a source selling SMG SOFTWARE which can be used on all of the BMWs.

It comes with a cable / software.

Its approx 7000 USD as far as I remember
GOOD GOD!! Go get it here for free.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:01 PM   #16
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SMG: Aftermarket clutch - FT gear change delay

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmech211 View Post
The DME doesn't do any shifting. All it does is regulate engine speed, torque ramp, and rev-match. The CSL software just does it a lot faster, while still taking shift-condition queues from the SMG controller via CAN BUS.

Clutch dis/engagement is somewhat regulated by driver demand torque (your foot on the gas), hence the varying levels of aggressiveness. There's definitely some communication logic being skewed between the SMG controller and DME.

Your clutch may not be fully disengaging (excessive drag on the flywheel) causing the calculated and actual demand torque measurements to be off. If that's the case the DME will not send a signal to the SMG controller to proceed with the shift until the calculated and demand torques fall within acceptable parameters. That's most likely why you're having to do it manually with the accelerator pedal.




GOOD GOD!! Go get it here for free.
Very interesting.... I know in inpa u can view the parameters and there is a torque calculated. It maxes out at 400 newton meters if I remember correctly. Mine showed a question mark at my actual calculation. So it was definitely out of range with over twice the torque I'm running. I think ur on to something. If we can somehow trick it into thinking we have less torque the problem might be solved. Any ideas how ?

Makes a lot of sense why HPF SMG cars has a timing retard function to reduce torque in shifts.

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Old 10-16-2013, 12:13 PM   #17
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SMG: Aftermarket clutch - FT gear change delay

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Originally Posted by mike@maximumpsi View Post
That is good info.
Since u guys r the experts on the DME tuning maybe there is something u can do to switch the torque calculation range for the SMG to shift with r higher torque numbers for r turbos. I think that may be the issue or at least worth investigating.


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Old 10-16-2013, 12:28 PM   #18
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Since u guys r the experts on the DME tuning maybe there is something u can do to switch the torque calculation range for the SMG to shift with r higher torque numbers for r turbos. I think that may be the issue or at least worth investigating.


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As soon as we have the SMG car in Florida we will be looking at all the options.
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:57 PM   #19
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SMG: Aftermarket clutch - FT gear change delay

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@maximumpsi View Post
As soon as we have the SMG car in Florida we will be looking at all the options.
I look forward to how it all works out. I noticed another thing that helped with the shifts. I was having boost spikes of about 2 to 3 psi between shifts. The spikes were of less than .5 of a second and hard to filter out with duty cycle. So above the boost mark I was targeting I had the timing drop off to counter the extra power. Then when I had hi boost switched on I made up for the drop in the secondary timing map and did the same thing for it above target.


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Old 10-18-2013, 02:30 PM   #20
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SMG: Aftermarket clutch - FT gear change delay

I recommend hard teach in via gt1 if you are having up shift delays. Then do an adaptation in order to set the engagement as aggressive as possible. FWIW...I didn't notice much improvement with csl software on stage 3 sb clutch. I know with hpf aem I had complaints about downshift delays (i cant recall why the delay is causef by the piggyback) but since this car is dme tuned I'd try running all smg calibration (without updating!) from a gt1. Hope this helps...


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