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Old 12-06-2012, 08:44 AM   #41
Scooby24
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I really hope they make this kit compatible with 6spds. My clutch won't be lasting much longer and I'll be in need of an overhaul. This is exactly what I'd be looking for.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:24 AM   #42
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Seems like there's been interest from quite a few 6-speed guys already! That would be cool if Valeo jumped on this. But if not I suppose we could machine an adapter for that bearing. I've already got an idea for a simple bolt-on adapter to accept the 6-speed pilot bearing.

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Originally Posted by Scooby24 View Post
I really hope they make this kit compatible with 6spds. My clutch won't be lasting much longer and I'll be in need of an overhaul. This is exactly what I'd be looking for.

Last edited by alexxander.foster; 12-06-2012 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:55 PM   #43
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I'm interested, but skeptical. Seems a cheap way out of things.

From ECSTuning:

Most service professionals consider the dual (twin) mass flywheel to be a wear item, and recommend replacing it as part of each clutch job. Resurfacing of dual mass flywheels, common with conventional flywheels, is impractical and not recommended by many OEM's, including BMW and Porsche. In fact, reusing an old dual mass flywheel with a new clutch friction disc often results in unwanted noise, vibration, and harshness, due to torsion spring wear.
ECS recommends installing a new dual mass flywheel when replacing the clutch friction disc.

How it works: Dual (or twin) mass flywheels are made of two separate flywheel discs separated by a friction ring, and coupled through torsion dampers; springs or planetary gear sets. Transmitting drive from the engine to the transmission through vibration dampers isolates crankshaft torsion spikes, reducing transmission gear rattle, gear selection effort, and synchronizer wear. Failed dual mass isolation springs and gears cause noise and vibration.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:44 PM   #44
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Mango,

I agree with your whole first paragraph including the ECS recommendation to replace the flywheel when doing a clutch.

In reference to the bold part of your next paragraph, do you think this might be why they add springs to the hub of the clutch disc? I think this is intended to make up for the fact the single mass flywheel does not absorb driveline shock and vibration like a dual mass would.

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Old 12-09-2012, 11:35 AM   #45
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:24 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Ian@BavAuto View Post
Mango,

I agree with your whole first paragraph including the ECS recommendation to replace the flywheel when doing a clutch.

In reference to the bold part of your next paragraph, do you think this might be why they add springs to the hub of the clutch disc? I think this is intended to make up for the fact the single mass flywheel does not absorb driveline shock and vibration like a dual mass would.

Ian
I don't really see how the springs on the clutch would perform the same job as the springs in a DMF.

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Old 12-09-2012, 01:57 PM   #47
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Hey TerraPhantm,
Hmmmm... I wish I could find a similar animation showing the operation of a sprung hub clutch disk. The best thing I can say is they perform a different job with the same net effect: dampening of driveline shock or power fluctuation.

In a DMF setup the clutch disk is fixed and the flywheel cams about a center point to facilitate a dampening effect. In a standard single mass flywheel conversely the flywheel is fixed and the clutch has a spring assembly in the hub that allows it to cam about a center point to facilitate dampening. The springs are irrelevant since they can be selected to produce nearly the same net effect.

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Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
I don't really see how the springs on the clutch would perform the same job as the springs in a DMF.


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Old 12-09-2012, 02:31 PM   #48
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oops, disregard this

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Old 12-09-2012, 02:43 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexxander.foster View Post
Hey TerraPhantm,
Hmmmm... I wish I could find a similar animation showing the operation of a sprung hub clutch disk. The best thing I can say is they perform a different job with the same net effect: dampening of driveline shock or power fluctuation.

In a DMF setup the clutch disk is fixed and the flywheel cams about a center point to facilitate a dampening effect. In a standard single mass flywheel conversely the flywheel is fixed and the clutch has a spring assembly in the hub that allows it to cam about a center point to facilitate dampening. The springs are irrelevant since they can be engineered to produce nearly the same net effect.
Exactly, they are both accomplishing the same, just to varying degrees.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:29 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by alexxander.foster View Post
Hey TerraPhantm,
Hmmmm... I wish I could find a similar animation showing the operation of a sprung hub clutch disk. The best thing I can say is they perform a different job with the same net effect: dampening of driveline shock or power fluctuation.

In a DMF setup the clutch disk is fixed and the flywheel cams about a center point to facilitate a dampening effect. In a standard single mass flywheel conversely the flywheel is fixed and the clutch has a spring assembly in the hub that allows it to cam about a center point to facilitate dampening. The springs are irrelevant since they can be engineered to produce nearly the same net effect.
Not really seeing how the clutch hub would be caming about a center point. The hub is fixed to the friction material and to the input shaft... so it can't really cam about a center point.

To me it seems more like the springs in the hub are doing the job of the springs in the self-adjusting pressure plate.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:52 PM   #51
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Yeah, its really hard to explain this stuff since there are so many systems working in unison. I did a bit of digging and found this educational video that might be able to fill in the gaps. Its very comprehensive. The portion about the clutch disk, as well as how the sprung hub functions, is located between 2:45 and 3:45 min:



Hopefully that fills in the missing pieces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
Not really seeing how the clutch hub would be caming about a center point. The hub is fixed to the friction material and to the input shaft... so it can't really cam about a center point.

To me it seems more like the springs in the hub are doing the job of the springs in the self-adjusting pressure plate.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:58 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
Not really seeing how the clutch hub would be caming about a center point. The hub is fixed to the friction material and to the input shaft... so it can't really cam about a center point.
huh? We're talking about a torsion spring clutch here. It's not fixed, It's floating on the torsion springs just as the DMF is floating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
To me it seems more like the springs in the hub are doing the job of the springs in the self-adjusting pressure plate.
No...not at all. A self adjusting pressure plate maintains even clamping force over the life of the clutch, the torsion springs dampen torque. Two entirely unrelated functions.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:13 PM   #53
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Yeah, in a SMF + sprung hub, the hub and clutch material are able to move relative to each other - just as the pressure plate, clutch disk, and half the DMF can move relative to the other half of the DMF in the DMF setup. The net result is similar. Whether or not one can reduce driveline shock ore than the other, I don't know.

Where the difference should definitely come in is having an unsprung disk should make it (the disk) lighter. Seeing as the disk is the only part of the clutch which the syncros should have to speed up / slow down (assuming you rev match etc) this should give the syncros less work to do.

Luke
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:02 PM   #54
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Hey guys! I saw this thread and almost pooped myself. I bought this kit too this summer and I gotta say I really like it. I bought it for $595.68 from Carolina clutch. This is a newer part that they have not been making that long so no worries about getting one sitting on a shelf for 3 years. I wish i posted this first.

I know that they're are some really sweet clutch kits out there but I don't have the money for racing parts nor really want them sometimes to just get to work. (just kidding i want them all)

This is a neat kit that does not sacrifice the smooth ride we all bought in the first place. I have noticed the slight chatter from time to time but its just a pleasant reminder of the effort I put into the replacement. I also can't remember the last time I heard it. Its freezing here now so I haven't heard it in a long while. Its mostly only when A/C is on, its warm out, and you're at the drive thru getting a burger not in gear.

I think valeo made a very very high value kit considering what's included and I'm happy such a well made kit exists. It was this or the ebay kits and I just didn't want to pull the trigger on the ebay stuff. I know Valeo is not a super prestigious hot rod brand, but its at least a reputable name for parts with warranties etc......
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:11 PM   #55
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I seen a guy on another forum piece together parts from an e36 without getting an expensive conversion kit. I can't find the thread now

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Old 12-10-2012, 07:30 PM   #56
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The chattering with the clutch depressed sounds like it could be from the throw out bearing. Is it the same stock throw out bearing or a special part number? Could it be replaced with a higher quality one?
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:32 PM   #57
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Nice man! Glad to hear you like it too! And I'm also glad to hear your experiences are more-or-less the same ones I'm having. That's a good point about how the chatter has gone away with the cold weather, now that I think about it mine has too. That's also a much better deal than what I paid **ahem**. So how many miles do you have on it? Did I miss something on my review? Are you having the shifting notchiness I'm experiencing too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by glass330 View Post
Hey guys! I saw this thread and almost pooped myself. I bought this kit too this summer and I gotta say I really like it. I bought it for $595.68 from Carolina clutch. This is a newer part that they have not been making that long so no worries about getting one sitting on a shelf for 3 years. I wish i posted this first.

I know that they're are some really sweet clutch kits out there but I don't have the money for racing parts nor really want them sometimes to just get to work. (just kidding i want them all)

This is a neat kit that does not sacrifice the smooth ride we all bought in the first place. I have noticed the slight chatter from time to time but its just a pleasant reminder of the effort I put into the replacement. I also can't remember the last time I heard it. Its freezing here now so I haven't heard it in a long while. Its mostly only when A/C is on, its warm out, and you're at the drive thru getting a burger not in gear.

I think valeo made a very very high value kit considering what's included and I'm happy such a well made kit exists. It was this or the ebay kits and I just didn't want to pull the trigger on the ebay stuff. I know Valeo is not a super prestigious hot rod brand, but its at least a reputable name for parts with warranties etc......
Interesting. I could have sworn I found the same thing a few years ago too. That's what prompted this project. But I never found the thread again. If you end up finding it in the future post it up here!

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I seen a guy on another forum piece together parts from an e36 without getting an expensive conversion kit. I can't find the thread now

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That's a good point. Like I mentioned in the first post, the clutch kit came with its own throw out bearing. What I didn't say in the first thread is that I was so unimpressed with the throw out bearing I actually put the stock TO bearing back in. I figured it was irrelevant information since my "problems" were so miniscule and disappeared as soon as the pedal was depressed. I honestly wasn't expecting such a lengthy discussion on the potential sources of this clutch chatter -haha! Not that I'm complaining. I'm actually enjoying reading/participating in the technical discussion.

Since we're talking about this, there was only 40k on the bearing and no signs of wear so I figured it was a justifiable gamble. I read more than once from the Audi and VW guys that they also were unimpressed with the Valeo throw out bearing. Many forum posts discussing this recommended people buying the Valeo kits buy a higher quality throw out bearing to supplement the existing conversion kit.

Anyway, so because of this, you could be right. For the record, I cant speak for glass330, but I am experiencing chatter with the pedal out, not depressed. Also, I'm wondering if he's using the Valeo throw out bearing or the LUK/Sachs one. Its always possible that the Valeo TO bearing is actually designed to absorb the chatter... though I cant imagine any reason why or how... its my understand that its the job of the clutch disk to absorb chatter.

As a related issue, someone else mentioned that it might be the throw out bearing guide tube. It was fine on disassembly and inspection. I even removed it and cleaned it to get a better look at the part. Absolutely no stress marks, discoloration, burns, or tears in the guide tube. But its absolutely plausible that it sustained damage during reassembly. I wont know that until the next clutch job (or premature mechanical failure).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby24 View Post
The chattering with the clutch depressed sounds like it could be from the throw out bearing. Is it the same stock throw out bearing or a special part number? Could it be replaced with a higher quality one?

Last edited by alexxander.foster; 12-10-2012 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:13 PM   #58
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I just put this kit in my 325ci. It is a great kit. I've got about 2.5k miles on it. like the op said i can here a little chatter but it so quiet that it's almost not noticable at all.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:56 PM   #59
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I just put this kit in my 325ci. It is a great kit. I've got about 2.5k miles on it. like the op said i can here a little chatter but it so quiet that it's almost not noticable at all.
How's the engagement of the shifter? Any synchro issues with gear scratching or difficult gear engagement?
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:48 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e4ortysix View Post
I just put this kit in my 325ci. It is a great kit. I've got about 2.5k miles on it. like the op said i can here a little chatter but it so quiet that it's almost not noticable at all.
Any noticeable performance increase? Quicker revving?
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