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E46 Convertible
The E46 vert forum. Talk about dropping your E46 top here.

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Old 03-30-2013, 09:40 PM   #1
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Found my leak... now what?

I have known for a while that I had a hydraulic fluid leak. I've been living with it by just topping off the pump and getting a few good uses out of it before more leaks out. I finally had the time and lighting to search for it and I found it... and now I'm not sure what to do.

Basically, it looks like a screw got lost (or fell out) and the resulting gap in the metal ended up pinching and cutting the hydraulic line.

My cylinders are all OK. It's the hose that is damaged.

Is there a hose DIY? I can only imagine how difficult it must be just from looking at it while mid-lowering/raising. Seems to me that pretty much everything has to come off and then be disassembled... and thus far I can't even be sure I know the right part number for the (expensive) hoses.

Photos (and more description) here:

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=438153
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Old 03-31-2013, 02:31 AM   #2
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Unfortunately you're probably going to have to take a lot apart to get at that hose. I just removed hose #11 (pinched it accidentally reinstalling the main lift cylinders) and can tell you to remove any hose on the top requires removing the entire top from the vehicle to access the valve body to disconnect the hose.

Plus you'll have to articulate the top in different positions to access the metal plates that cover the hydraulic lines as they are routed along the hinges.

Good luck, this is definitely an involved job.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:18 AM   #3
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I figured that might be the case. Did you follow a DIY for hose 11? Or was it sort of trial and error?

Provided it can be a one man job I'm perfectly prepared to spend days on it. It'll be worth it to have full knowledge inside and out of the mechanism like I do for the rest of the car (sans SMG).

Also, what'd the hose cost you?
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:13 PM   #4
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Quote:
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I figured that might be the case. Did you follow a DIY for hose 11? Or was it sort of trial and error?

Provided it can be a one man job I'm perfectly prepared to spend days on it. It'll be worth it to have full knowledge inside and out of the mechanism like I do for the rest of the car (sans SMG).

Also, what'd the hose cost you?
I wrote a DIY fur the main lift cylinders recently. Since you're a mod could you look into making it a stickie? When I reinstall part #11 (which is actually hose 20 and 21) I'll add some more pictures to that DIY. These 2 hoses go directly from the valve block to the cylinder, no routing along hinges so very easy to remove. Seb_325ci_2000 has tackled replacing part #12 which is routed along hinges so you might want to PM him for tips.

You could tackle most of it yourself, yet you're going to need a hand to lift the top out to disconnect the hose from the valve block, and to articulate the top into various positions to access the metal plates that cover the hoses at the hinges.

Part #11 is $230. I find ECS Tuning pricing similar to what's on Real OEM.

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Old 04-01-2013, 02:30 PM   #5
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Alternative hydraulic line routing?

Dave and taylor192,

just some food for thought here: Can a longer replacement line be routed elsewhere, such that you don't have to take the top off? I don't own an E46 and don't have access to one, so I thought it would be worth asking. I know there is a reason for BMW having done it the way they did, but I doubt they were considering the labor needed for R&R of the line.

Top Hydraulics manufactures hydraulic lines (using the same fittings and the same hose material as the OEM for BMW applications), and it would be easy to make them in any length needed...

Klaus


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Some BMW E46 hydraulic cylinders, pumps, and valves that we rebuild and upgrade at Top Hydraulics:
54347025593
54347025600
54347025599
54348236956
54348243269
5434-8234530 (hydro-unit)
54347025592 (control unit)
54347025598 (improved hoses manufactured at Top Hydraulics)
http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/en/56-bmw-e46
www.tophydraulicsinc.com

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Old 04-01-2013, 03:29 PM   #6
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Dave and taylor192,

just some food for thought here: Can a longer replacement line be routed elsewhere, such that you don't have to take the top off? I don't own an E46 and don't have access to one, so I thought it would be worth asking. I know there is a reason for BMW having done it the way they did, but I doubt they were considering the labor needed for R&R of the line.

Top Hydraulics manufactures hydraulic lines (using the same fittings and the same hose material as the OEM for BMW applications), and it would be easy to make them in any length needed...
Klaus,

I looked into line #23 (part #12 on Real OEM) and it is not that bad to replace. Since line 24 essentially follows the same path it would be just as easy to replace.

This is the path for line #23 (and essentially line #24):
- start at the valve block (which unfortunately requires removing the top to access)
- around the back of the first hinge and under a metal plate to protect the lines at the hinge (which is easily removable with the top down, all the screws are exposed)
- up the metal support right behind the rear drivers side window (held on by zip ties which will require small hands to get at)
- through a hole in the frame (which I suspect will be hard to get the 90 degree fittings through)
-across the 3rd 'rib' back from the front (easy to see by pulling down the headliner a bit with the roof extended yet not clamped to the windshield)
-down the other side in a similar fashion, finally connecting to the passenger side main lift cylinder

The problem with line #23 is it has no extra slack at the first bend (at least on my vehicle). When the rear window is raised to lift the storage compartment lid, line #23 is pulled tight while line #24 has some slack. Thus an extra inch would help. Another inch might be good to bypass the small holes in the frame near the 3rd 'rib'. Any extra line could easily be left along the 3rd rib or at the first bends.

Dave,

The lines in your pictures are #31/32 or #33/34, check them for markings. They are the lines that go to the drivers side bow tension cylinder. They do not have an individual part number on Real OEM as they are included with part #8, so it is good news that Klaus can make you a set!

I'll see if I can get a picture of the cover you're missing sometime this week. Without the cover it would be very easy for these lines to get pinched. You'll need to find a new cover from a junkyard, or hope that tape/zip ties suffice.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor192 View Post
The problem with line #23 is it has no extra slack at the first bend (at least on my vehicle). When the rear window is raised to lift the storage compartment lid, line #23 is pulled tight while line #24 has some slack. Thus an extra inch would help. Another inch might be good to bypass the small holes in the frame near the 3rd 'rib'. Any extra line could easily be left along the 3rd rib or at the first bends.
taylor192,

that's good to know! I'm curious if the situation is the same on every E46. Normally, the hose lengths are quite consistent from the OEM, which would make me think that this problem is quite common.

As I mentioned before, we currently manufacture the BMW lines out of the same hose material as the OEM. Is there enough room to install lines with a 1-2mm larger OD, which would allow us to use even higher quality material?

Klaus

www.tophydraulicsinc.com
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Some BMW E46 hydraulic cylinders, pumps, and valves that we rebuild and upgrade at Top Hydraulics:
54347025593
54347025600
54347025599
54348236956
54348243269
5434-8234530 (hydro-unit)
54347025592 (control unit)
54347025598 (improved hoses manufactured at Top Hydraulics)
http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/en/56-bmw-e46
www.tophydraulicsinc.com

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Old 04-01-2013, 09:04 PM   #8
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Thanks for these replies, and Klaus, that's great thinking. I have no idea if it'd work - Taylor would surely know better than I, as my experience is quite limited - but that's a great way of thinking about it, anyway.

I didn't realize there was a cover on there that'd be missing too. What does it even cover? It seemed to me that the hoses were pretty well concealed inside the metal mechanism. Is there a matching cover on the other side?

Anyway, I guess I've got more exploring to do, but if Klaus can make the hoses I need, that's great news for now, at least.

(I don't suppose "the greatest place on earth" is somewhere in south Florida, is it? I do enjoy DIY but in virgin territory it always helps to have an expert over my shoulder...)

Thanks!
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:28 AM   #9
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Quote:
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I didn't realize there was a cover on there that'd be missing too. What does it even cover? It seemed to me that the hoses were pretty well concealed inside the metal mechanism. Is there a matching cover on the other side?
I'm going off memory, yet I am pretty sure there is a metal cover on the end of the frame where those lines are that keep them from coming out as far as they are in your photos. Those lines should not be touching the other part of the frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
(I don't suppose "the greatest place on earth" is somewhere in south Florida, is it? I do enjoy DIY but in virgin territory it always helps to have an expert over my shoulder...)
I appreciate the "expert" title, although 5 months ago I was a virgin too. The top is not that complicated mechanically. Electrically it is a bit of a nightmare, yet with the CVM codes it is straight forward.

I have to update it to "best":


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Old 04-03-2013, 05:13 PM   #10
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Is there anything I can do in the meantime? It will probably be a while before I summon the knowledge to take the whole top apart and off. What are the hoses made out of... is there any way to slow the leak or cauterize it or something, just to maybe waste a little bit less fluid than I keep pumping in via syringe? I'm in Miami, so I kind of need the top to be down 80% of the time....
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:29 PM   #11
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Hydraulic hoses cannot be patched

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Is there anything I can do in the meantime? It will probably be a while before I summon the knowledge to take the whole top apart and off. What are the hoses made out of... is there any way to slow the leak or cauterize it or something, just to maybe waste a little bit less fluid than I keep pumping in via syringe? I'm in Miami, so I kind of need the top to be down 80% of the time....
Dave,

these hoses cannot be patched. The ID is so small that a regular hose repair outfit will only shake their heads at them. We have some very specialized equipment for crimping the connectors onto the hoses, and the hoses are made out of material that cannot be patched. Most hoses that we manufacture at Top Hydraulics have an extruded PTFE core with Kevlar braiding and a protective jacket.

Do not even think about using additives in your fluid, or the OEM seals on the hydraulic cylinders will quit on you very soon. The peak pressure in your system is in the high 2000's PSI.

I will try to feel sorry for you having to have your top down 80% of the time...

By the way, we have just posted raichean's removal instructions for the bow tension cylinders on our website's DIY section, and taylor192's DIY for the main lift and storage cover hydraulic cylinders will follow shortly: http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/en/c...y-instructions

Klaus

www.tophydraulicsinc.com
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Some BMW E46 hydraulic cylinders, pumps, and valves that we rebuild and upgrade at Top Hydraulics:
54347025593
54347025600
54347025599
54348236956
54348243269
5434-8234530 (hydro-unit)
54347025592 (control unit)
54347025598 (improved hoses manufactured at Top Hydraulics)
http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/en/56-bmw-e46
www.tophydraulicsinc.com

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Old 04-03-2013, 06:40 PM   #12
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Well if things persist as they are with the idiotic rules in the state of Virginia the top will just be up 100% of the time and I'll be on foot after losing my license...

(I'm unable to make a mandatory court appearance for RECKLESS DRIVING, which is an actual CRIME... otherwise known as driving with traffic at the same speed as everyone else in a 70mph zone. Anything over 80 is automatically reckless. And apparently the judges aren't very nice either. And now I can't produce my driving record for the lawyer because the NY DMV website is down. So I am apparently at risk of actually having to go to JAIL tomorrow. What a joke.)

So I guess in the grand scheme of things a few extra pints of fluid isn't the end of the world...
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:13 PM   #13
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So the lines that are leaking are removable as per the DIY at http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/e46bowcylinders.pdf ? And my repair cost is a mere $110 from Klaus?

Maybe one thing can go right for me today after all...

I don't totally follow that DIY just yet, but I am sure once I do the cutting and get in there and see it as I read it'll make more sense. Still, it looks like a different hose to me. That routing plate isn't something that looks familiar to me.

Also, I'm confused by what part of the repairs on T-H.com apply to the lines themselves. Do they remain attached to the cylinders and get replaced?
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:27 PM   #14
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So the lines that are leaking are removable as per the DIY at http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/e46bowcylinders.pdf ? And my repair cost is a mere $110 from Klaus?

Maybe one thing can go right for me today after all...

I don't totally follow that DIY just yet, but I am sure once I do the cutting and get in there and see it as I read it'll make more sense. Still, it looks like a different hose to me. That routing plate isn't something that looks familiar to me.

Also, I'm confused by what part of the repairs on T-H.com apply to the lines themselves. Do they remain attached to the cylinders and get replaced?
Let me know if I can help.. I wrote the guide. The bow cylinder on the drivers side disconnects totally, but the hoses are permanently attached on the passenger side. You get them off the drivers side and then pull them from across the bow until they are free and pull the passenger side cylinder out. (if you just need those hoses out)

Let me know if I can help.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
So the lines that are leaking are removable as per the DIY at http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/e46bowcylinders.pdf ? And my repair cost is a mere $110 from Klaus?

Maybe one thing can go right for me today after all...

I don't totally follow that DIY just yet, but I am sure once I do the cutting and get in there and see it as I read it'll make more sense. Still, it looks like a different hose to me. That routing plate isn't something that looks familiar to me.

Also, I'm confused by what part of the repairs on T-H.com apply to the lines themselves. Do they remain attached to the cylinders and get replaced?
Let's clarify.

1. That DIY does NOT remove the lines that are leaking on your car. It removes the passenger side lines, you need to remove the drivers side. The only part of that DIY that you can use is how to disconnect the lines from the drivers side bow tension cylinder.

Do NOT cut anything! You do NOT need to to remove the passenger side lines.

2. You need a new line which Klaus can make. You will have to ask him for a price as they are made to order.

3. You will need to follow the DIY I posted to remove the top from the car to access the valve block to disconnect the drivers side bow tension cylinder lines. There are no pictures of the valve block in my DIY, I plan to add them when I replace a line.

Unfortunately for you I'm replacing line 23, you have to replace line 31, 32, 33, or 34, otherwise I could offer you more direction. Check the leaking line for a red number so we know which line is the issue.

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Old 04-03-2013, 10:28 PM   #16
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taylor192,

thank you, you beat me to it. I was so excited about raishean's cylinder removal DIYs being up (and yours coming up shortly) that I thought I'd mention it here. Sorry if that caused any confusion. Just in general: we can manufacture any hydraulic line for the E46 convertible top, as long as we know the red number on it. Let's clarify first which line is bad in your case.

Dave, you are referring to a post with pictures in the M3 forum. Unfortunately, one must register on that forum before being able to see the pics. Would you mind adding the pics to this thread?

The cylinder rebuilds/upgrade are different from hydraulic line replacement. Cylinder upgrades will be needed on pretty much every E46 that doesn't get wrecked prematurely. It deals with replacing and upgrading the seals inside the hydraulic cylinders (of which the E46 has six). Some hydraulic cylinders have the hydraulic lines permanently attached, and others have detachable lines. We can deal with either case, but it's separate from the cylinder upgrade.

(Meanwhile, hope all goes well with your affairs in VA...)

Klaus

www.tophydraulicsinc.com
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Some BMW E46 hydraulic cylinders, pumps, and valves that we rebuild and upgrade at Top Hydraulics:
54347025593
54347025600
54347025599
54348236956
54348243269
5434-8234530 (hydro-unit)
54347025592 (control unit)
54347025598 (improved hoses manufactured at Top Hydraulics)
http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/en/56-bmw-e46
www.tophydraulicsinc.com

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Old 04-04-2013, 03:30 PM   #17
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I'm confused. I thought all the lines crossed side to side. I still don't understand why the top itself needs to be removed either. Though I guess since the lines are inside between all those pieces of metal I can't see how I'd feed a new one without the entire thing being in pieces...

Klaus, it probably wouldn't hurt to register over there, as there are lots of convertible owners there, but here are the photos... not sure if they're the same order though.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:55 PM   #18
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I'm confused. I thought all the lines crossed side to side. I still don't understand why the top itself needs to be removed either. Though I guess since the lines are inside between all those pieces of metal I can't see how I'd feed a new one without the entire thing being in pieces...
If this confuses you, please don't take offense, take it to a shop. Rather than post here, invest some time with a flashlight and take a good look the area you took photos of and how the lines are routed.

Starting at the photo of the lines you've posted, they go 2 directions:

- The lines go up the frame and are routed along the top eventually connecting to the bow tension cylinders. In Step 12 of this DIY (http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/e46bowcylinders.pdf) the passenger lines are on the right, the drivers on the left. So you'll need to follow part of this DIY to remove the drivers side lines up to the bow tension cylinder.

- The lines go down and wrap around the front of the mounting plate, then to the valve block... which will be difficult to see without removing the upper trim on the drivers side. To remove these lines from the valve black requires removing the entire top from the car.

Quote:
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Klaus, it probably wouldn't hurt to register over there, as there are lots of convertible owners there, but here are the photos... not sure if they're the same order though.
I've been unable to get any good information on M3F concerning the convertible top. Almost all questions get referred here.

Last edited by taylor192; 04-04-2013 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:41 PM   #19
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Well it confuses me because my time spent has been mostly limited to looking at the guides here. The only time I've really studied in the car was about ten minutes when I diagnosed the leak. I've admitted that my issue here is ignorance, not stupidity. Heck, I've even said that I don't feel comfortable doing this as a one-man DIY on a first attempt.

Audience-wise it certainly makes sense that there'd be more information here. (Also, the site is older.) Market-wise for a vendor, though, it's still something I'd probably explore. It's not as if Klaus necessarily needs more information anyway; it's more about finding a new market for his services.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:50 PM   #20
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Dave.. let me know how I can help? Feel free to drop me a PM and happy to walk you through what I know over the phone even if you want.
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