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Old 12-26-2012, 04:43 PM   #161
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Question:

Would the firemen still be alive enjoying Christmas with their children instead of being dead and their bodies currently rotting away in the ground if:

A. Guns were banned last month and it was illegal for anyone to own a gun anywhere in the world

B. The killer was executed 17 years ago after smashing his 92 year old grand mother's skull into pudding with the hammer instead of being released into society again


Take your time
I think I'll take option B, yeah that's my final answer.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:53 PM   #162
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Question:

Would the firemen still be alive enjoying Christmas with their children instead of being dead and their bodies currently rotting away in the ground if:

A. Guns were banned last month and it was illegal for anyone to own a gun anywhere in the world

B. The killer was executed 17 years ago after smashing his 92 year old grand mother's skull into pudding with the hammer instead of being released into society again


Take your time
No need to take my time, and no need for you to patronize anyone here! I would always take option B as I'm a logical person. As a gun supporter I'm not asking to rid Americans of our right to protect ourselves, moreover, as an American who's spent the last 20+ years committing to support the constitution with my very own life, I'm all for the right to bear arms... Badfast's question holds merit, and once some of you realize he's only asking for Americans as a community to discuss potential positive outcomes to unfortunate situations, then this debate will be much more productive! You should really refrain from being condescending when it come to gun issues, we're mostly on your side !
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:29 PM   #163
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Badfast seems reasonable as so are you.
He sent me a solid PM further explaining his views.

It was a loaded question for you. I'll be honest and I'm really not trying to be condescending.... It's just hard for me to discuss this with people because I don't give ANY merit to guns being the problem AT ALL. I wish MILLIONS more guns would FLOOD into the hands of law abiding people (a wish that just came true recently). Gun stores are EMPTY

GL to those that want an easy target to attack. I hope the number of people shot an killed triples next year as long as the deceased are violent criminals at the hands, and barrels) of gun owners protecting themselves.

Peace!
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:45 PM   #164
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Badfast seems reasonable as so are you.
He sent me a solid PM further explaining his views.

It was a loaded question for you. I'll be honest and I'm really not trying to be condescending.... It's just hard for me to discuss this with people because I don't give ANY merit to guns being the problem AT ALL. I wish MILLIONS more guns would FLOOD into the hands of law abiding people (a wish that just came true recently). Gun stores are EMPTY

GL to those that want an easy target to attack. I hope the number of people shot an killed triples next year as long as the deceased are violent criminals at the hands, and barrels) of gun owners protecting themselves.

Peace!
As always, much respect... I'm all for gun rights! I just feel some further education and solids questions could be answered. Trust me, I'm all for defending myself with a firearm if its deemed necessary.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:33 PM   #165
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Gonna just throw this out there after a discussion at the station about us being allowed to conceal carry during calls.

We decided that it possesses more of a problem than a solution, mainly because of the one thing that we face...heat. If we have a loaded hand gun on our persons and under our turn out gear and respond to a fire, we expose that gun to extreme heat and a possible accidental discharge of the firearm.

So we said, why not allow the engineer/driver to carry. And we shot that down because his focus needs to be on the pump during a fire and on his rig during other calls. With loss of attention to that it puts us at risk.

Just throwing that out there for what we discussed after this.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:10 AM   #166
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Gonna just throw this out there after a discussion at the station about us being allowed to conceal carry during calls.

We decided that it possesses more of a problem than a solution, mainly because of the one thing that we face...heat. If we have a loaded hand gun on our persons and under our turn out gear and respond to a fire, we expose that gun to extreme heat and a possible accidental discharge of the firearm.

So we said, why not allow the engineer/driver to carry. And we shot that down because his focus needs to be on the pump during a fire and on his rig during other calls. With loss of attention to that it puts us at risk.

Just throwing that out there for what we discussed after this.
An excellent and logical thought process. However, your safety is still "compromised" since no one is armed. Is it better for someone to remain outside armed? Is it better for the engineer to carry and still pay attention (if shots are being fired, the engineer can't do much to help you if unarmed) than have a possible situation like this shooting and you all remain defenseless? Does the engineer possessing a weapon on his persons make them worse at their job simply by having the gun on their side? Surely he can still pay 100% attention but have a side arm...just in case no, or perhaps I am missing something.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:21 AM   #167
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We should pay Blackwater or some other corporation to guard our firemen.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:22 AM   #168
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:03 PM   #169
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We should pay Blackwater or some other corporation to guard our firemen.
You do know that they have 100% private fire departments right? You fail at life. Not only did you not succeed in anything, including your marriage, you can't even troll properly.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:55 PM   #170
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I hear rustling.

What's your solution, corporate whore?

Higher taxes for school guards?
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:30 PM   #171
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I hear rustling.

What's your solution, corporate whore?

Higher taxes for school guards?
If we nip some of the insane benefits from teachers and their unions, we would have enough to put a small army in every school. Why do the people have to pay for it? Is every dollar a school spends is spent wisely? Seems to me there is some free money floating around there....after all, a public school spends far more per student than a charter school, and most private schools....maybe your union thug friends can give up a little so the staff and students can be protected.....nah, the union don't care aboutz the childrenz right?
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:14 PM   #172
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Of course.

Fvck the teachers.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:26 PM   #173
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An excellent and logical thought process. However, your safety is still "compromised" since no one is armed. Is it better for someone to remain outside armed? Is it better for the engineer to carry and still pay attention (if shots are being fired, the engineer can't do much to help you if unarmed) than have a possible situation like this shooting and you all remain defenseless? Does the engineer possessing a weapon on his persons make them worse at their job simply by having the gun on their side? Surely he can still pay 100% attention but have a side arm...just in case no, or perhaps I am missing something.
Well here is what we came up with when talking about the engineer. Say in this instance, the guy was waiting until fireground operations were underway to fire on the firefighters. The engineer is responsible for the truck and the pump. Say the firefighters were in fighting the fire when all the sudden an armed man started shooting at the truck. The engineer goes firing off at him with guys inside the home. When all the sudden the pump fails and the fireman inside lose water. Now they are dead in the fire because they had no way to protect themselves and were caught in the heat with no water to get out...or the other way around where they needed to lower the pressure and the engineer was not there to do that because he was in a gun fight.

I know they are huge what if's but it's just things we came up with.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:27 PM   #174
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Of course, you completely missed the point I was making. The fact is, if someone has a desire to kill or cause harm, they will use whatever tools are at their disposal to achieve this. You just proved this. Making a fertilizer bomb is difficult, but Timothy McVeigh wasn't phased by it and went on to kill 168 people. What's you're answer? Legislate it all a away? You and I both know that will never work.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that the events are not relatable. Both events were caused by men with a desire to kill and they were indeed successful.

In addition, we have strict gun control laws in many states, and as I have previously stated, it's illegal for felons to own guns. None of this stopped this latest tragedy from occurring.
True, people have, do and will act on the desire to kill, be it with knives and clubs or with guns. The huge difference though is the stunning ease and efficiency in how modern guns can actually injure and kill. Indeed, that is the very purpose of modern firearms -- to be able to injure and kill as easily and efficiently as possible -- that, in the end, is their very raison d'etre and to their credit, they are stunningly good at this.

It is this distinctive quality, there very effectiveness, that does set guns apart from other means of mayhem and murder and suggests that they thus be addressed in our society. Do recall that when the Second Amendment was penned, the most modern firearm was a muzzle loader which, of its own design, is far less effective or efficient in terms of lethality than even the most basic of cheap handguns today. Their very inefficiency and ineffectiveness were an innate gun control right there, what with a rate of fire of perhaps 1-2 per minute in the hands of a very well trained individual, giving more than sufficient time to subdue the perpetrator or run away from harm. With a modern firearm, even a mentally deranged individual can unleash that number of bullets per SECOND for minutes on end leaving little time for intervention or escape before a high level of injuries and fatalities have occurred.

I guess two questions would be: would the founding fathers have authored the Second Amendment differently in light of modern firearms, and two, should we today revisit the Second Amendment in light of the profoundly greater lethality of modern firearms? A single semiautomatic rifle can give a single shooter perhaps the killing power of a whole colonial-era platoon, if not more so, creating in essence individual roving militias in terms of firepower in their context. I suspect the FFs would have treated that level of lethality rather differently than they did in the perspective of the firearms of their day.

As mentioned, perhaps a better analogy than the McVeigh bombing would be the Chinese school attack, done with a knife rather than guns, which only resulted in a number of injuries rather than deaths, even presuming a similar underlying intent of malice. Will people continue to try to kill in the absence of guns? Of course, but they will be far, far less effective at it and far, far fewer people will thus be injured or killed.

That all said, I'm not for an outright ban of all, or even most, guns -- I'm a fellow gun owner myself. Indeed, I think the focus on ďassault weapons is primarily aesthetic (they look menacing) and misplaced as they are a rather small aspect of the gun problem and are less powerful than most good hunting rifles (Iíd rather be shot, if at all, by a Bushmaster .223 than a 30.06). However, I am for far more stringent regulations around the possession and use of guns than currently exist -- pro-gun and pro-gun-control if you will. I guess I see that "well-regulated militia" phrase in the Second Amendment as much more than some throw-away phrase than many do.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:39 PM   #175
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Well here is what we came up with when talking about the engineer. Say in this instance, the guy was waiting until fireground operations were underway to fire on the firefighters. The engineer is responsible for the truck and the pump. Say the firefighters were in fighting the fire when all the sudden an armed man started shooting at the truck. The engineer goes firing off at him with guys inside the home. When all the sudden the pump fails and the fireman inside lose water. Now they are dead in the fire because they had no way to protect themselves and were caught in the heat with no water to get out...or the other way around where they needed to lower the pressure and the engineer was not there to do that because he was in a gun fight.

I know they are huge what if's but it's just things we came up with.
If a crazy mofo starts shooting at your engineer when you're in the building, his ability to continue to support you is put in jeopardy regardless.

Sure, he can't do his engineer job if he's involved in a shootout with the crazy mofo instead of watching the pumps and dials and gauges and so on.

But by the same token, he can't do that stuff if the crazy mofo kills him, or forces him to take cover or run away in order to keep from getting shot, either.

I don't know that arming firefighters or fire trucks is a good idea. But just saying it's not because the guy left at the truck has other stuff to do doesn't make sense.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:42 PM   #176
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Well here is what we came up with when talking about the engineer. Say in this instance, the guy was waiting until fireground operations were underway to fire on the firefighters. The engineer is responsible for the truck and the pump. Say the firefighters were in fighting the fire when all the sudden an armed man started shooting at the truck. The engineer goes firing off at him with guys inside the home. When all the sudden the pump fails and the fireman inside lose water. Now they are dead in the fire because they had no way to protect themselves and were caught in the heat with no water to get out...or the other way around where they needed to lower the pressure and the engineer was not there to do that because he was in a gun fight.

I know they are huge what if's but it's just things we came up with.
Honestly man, just like those school shootings, nothing can prepare you for these sick f***s. Just go to church on Sunday and hope you come out alright.

BTW, just curious, I figure a firehose is plenty of "power" to knock a shooter the hell back no? Maybe a vest is all they need.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:44 PM   #177
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Honestly man, just like those school shootings, nothing can prepare you for these sick f***s. Just go to church on Sunday and hope you come out alright.
And that's the truth... no amount of law, regulation or banning will ever prevent crime. It will only reduce the ability of the good people to defend themselves.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:49 PM   #178
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Church?

How is church going to protect you?
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:52 PM   #179
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BTW, just curious, I figure a firehose is plenty of "power" to knock a shooter the hell back no?
LOL

I actually had that thought too. At close range, given the choice of a full-pressure fire hose vs a hand gun, I might take the hose. Don't need to be hyper-accurate and you can still knock a guy back about a city block and leave him without any skin when you're done. Comes with about a week-and-a-half worth of ammo, too.
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:33 PM   #180
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Church?

How is church going to protect you?
It was a figure of speech, put your liberal handbook down, we know you don't believe in god, you've made that quite clear.
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