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Old 01-07-2013, 02:44 PM   #61
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The 2nd Amendment has no such mandate. What reason could you possibly have for restricting age of ownership to 18 years of age or older? It's unconstitutional. It's un-American.
Bill of Rights doesn't tell you what you CAN do, it tells the government what they CAN'T restrict you on. If you go back and research, the age of militia enrollment started at 17-18. From there, many Federal and State laws were passed to further restrict and confuse people. From an FFL, you need to be 18 to buy a long gun and 21 for a handgun

(because stupid laws were passed by stupid people that thought "small" guns were scarier)
The NFA was passed because of one incident... History repeats itself, eh?
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:02 PM   #62
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I would think womens groups would be against gun control and very vocal for this very type of instance. Guns are the great equalizer. Do you think her or her children would have had a fighting chance otherwise... Odds are, probably not...
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:04 PM   #63
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Woh woh woh back off a bit here.

You can purchase a lethal weapon in the united states without having any form of course in gun ownership? Are you kidding me?

This is canadian process:

Quote:
Detailed steps to get your PAL (Canadian Firearms License)

Follow these simple steps to get your PAL gun license in Canada

Pass the Canadian Firearms Safety Courses (CFSC). It's fun and easy, very few people have any trouble. There are no trick questions, or difficult concepts. There's more on this later.
Fill out, and mail in the application form. You'll get it from from your instructor, or print it out from the RCMP CFP website. (details later.)
Wait a few weeks.
Receive your license and go shopping!

What about handguns?

How do I get a handgun in Canada?Yes, handguns are legal in Canada. If you want to own a handgun, or other "restricted" firearms (such as AR-15 rifles) in Canada you need to pass a second course called the CRFSC (the R is for Restricted,) and pay a bit more on the application to get a PAL which allows you to buy restricted firearms.

Generally it's called an RPAL, you can guess what the R in front is for. Although an RPAL is just a normal PAL which says "Restricted" on the back under the sections that list what types of firearms you are allowed to acquire or possess.

An RPAL is absolutely not a concealed weapons permit and does not authorize you to carry a handgun. Carrying a handgun in Canada without authorization is very illegal and there is virtually no way for you to get authorization to do so without having a job which requires it.
http://www.howtogetagun.ca/
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:08 PM   #64
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Woh woh woh back off a bit here.

You can purchase a lethal weapon in the united states without having any form of course in gun ownership? Are you kidding me?
This is true. We are allowed to purchase cars, bats, knives, sticks, stones and hammers. We even are born with hands and feet! The last two kill more people every year than ALL rifles and ALL shotguns COMBINED!

Crazy. We really should start thinking about some "common sense" laws to require training before people are allowed to use their hands and feet

PS: Canada has more drug, rape, suicide and crime problems than the USA
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:25 PM   #65
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Bill of Rights doesn't tell you what you CAN do, it tells the government what they CAN'T restrict you on. If you go back and research, the age of militia enrollment started at 17-18. From there, many Federal and State laws were passed to further restrict and confuse people. From an FFL, you need to be 18 to buy a long gun and 21 for a handgun

(because stupid laws were passed by stupid people that thought "small" guns were scarier)
The NFA was passed because of one incident... History repeats itself, eh?
In other words... you're fine with "restrictions" as long as they're in alignment with your personal thoughts, beliefs and attitudes.

If it's okay for the Government to forbid individuals under the age of 18 from legally purchasing firearms, then it would be okay for the Government to restrict individuals under the age of 450 from legally purchasing firearms.

Do you agree?
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:32 PM   #66
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This is true. We are allowed to purchase cars, bats, knives, sticks, stones and hammers. We even are born with hands and feet! The last two kill more people every year than ALL rifles and ALL shotguns COMBINED!

Crazy. We really should start thinking about some "common sense" laws to require training before people are allowed to use their hands and feet

PS: Canada has more drug, rape, suicide and crime problems than the USA
I'm not saying we don't deal with those issues. And obviously the thug down the street isn't going to be participating in a safety course / license for his stolen glock.

However, do you not see the benefit of a mandatory beginners course on weapons? And a more advanced one for AR-15 / handgun type weapons? An educated gun owner is almost certainly more safe than a non-educated one, regardless of your point that people are the problem (I fully agree, look at drivers of cars). But can you honestly argue that a drivers test (and the respective hands on experience required to pass) is a bad thing? I feel the exact same about the purchase of guns, they should require some form of testing to ensure the owner is somewhat aware of gun safety / proper use.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:57 PM   #67
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I'm not saying we don't deal with those issues. And obviously the thug down the street isn't going to be participating in a safety course / license for his stolen glock.

However, do you not see the benefit of a mandatory beginners course on weapons? And a more advanced one for AR-15 / handgun type weapons? An educated gun owner is almost certainly more safe than a non-educated one, regardless of your point that people are the problem (I fully agree, look at drivers of cars). But can you honestly argue that a drivers test (and the respective hands on experience required to pass) is a bad thing? I feel the exact same about the purchase of guns, they should require some form of testing to ensure the owner is somewhat aware of gun safety / proper use.
Anyone I personally know with a LEGAL handgun practices almost weekly, took a safety course, and fires more rounds (for practice) than 99.99% of law enforcement around my way. We don't need the government mandating a course and practice. Most do it on their own.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:58 PM   #68
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I'm not saying we don't deal with those issues. And obviously the thug down the street isn't going to be participating in a safety course / license for his stolen glock.

However, do you not see the benefit of a mandatory beginners course on weapons? And a more advanced one for AR-15 / handgun type weapons? An educated gun owner is almost certainly more safe than a non-educated one, regardless of your point that people are the problem (I fully agree, look at drivers of cars). But can you honestly argue that a drivers test (and the respective hands on experience required to pass) is a bad thing? I feel the exact same about the purchase of guns, they should require some form of testing to ensure the owner is somewhat aware of gun safety / proper use.
Then stay in canada.

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Old 01-07-2013, 04:02 PM   #69
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Then stay in canada.

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Oh don't worry I plan to. Just interested on american's take on gun control and government regulation of it.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:05 PM   #70
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Anyone I personally know with a LEGAL handgun practices almost weekly, took a safety course, and fires more rounds (for practice) than 99.99% of law enforcement around my way. We don't need the government mandating a course and practice. Most do it on their own.
In a country of 300+ million its not fair to apply your own personal experience, I'm sure there are millions of handgun owners that haven't had a course etc.

I don't know a single person who owns a handgun, yet I'm sure there are many canadians who do, and I feel comfort in the fact they've are at least guaranteed some education... if not only to protect themselves.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:06 PM   #71
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In a country of 300+ million its not fair to apply your own personal experience, I'm sure there are millions of handgun owners that haven't had a course etc.

I don't know a single person who owns a handgun, yet I'm sure there are many canadians who do, and I feel comfort in the fact they've are at least guaranteed some education... if not only to protect themselves.
On what basis do you conclude that most legal American gun owners are not trained?
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:07 PM   #72
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Oh don't worry I plan to. Just interested on american's take on gun control and government regulation of it.
Unlike driving, owning a gun is a right. You do not need to prove anything to have this right. You do not need to pass a test to "earn" the right to free speech. Likewise, you don't need to do anything to "earn" the right to own a gun. The only thing you need to do is not LOSE that right by committing a felony.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:21 PM   #73
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On what basis do you conclude that most legal American gun owners are not trained?
no backup, just knowledge of human characteristic. Majority of people by nature will do the bare minimum to accomplish a task. I could be wrong since it is just my opinion, but if there is no requirement to do something I would think it is safe to assume most will not go out of there way to get training.

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Unlike driving, owning a gun is a right. You do not need to prove anything to have this right. You do not need to pass a test to "earn" the right to free speech. Likewise, you don't need to do anything to "earn" the right to own a gun. The only thing you need to do is not LOSE that right by committing a felony.
And this is where we will agree to disagree, something I am perfectly fine with. I'm sure by my stance you can tell I do not agree with the "right to bear arms". A gun is a lethal weapon, a tool used for wounding/killing, regardless whether or not it is protecting the user or the user is using it to harm others. Something so dangerous should have some form of regulation surrounding it, each individual screened. But yes, that is unpatriotic and will never happen under your current constitution.

I live in Edmonton, which was the most homicides (average 30 per year for 1 million people) in Canada, even nicknamed Deadmonton. And I have never felt the need or urge to purchase a weapon, be that a knife, shotgun, handgun, anything. I don't know anyone who owns a gun other than to hunt with, most use a bow. Majority of people who are killed here are involved in some form of crime themselves... not caught in the wrong place at the wrong time where having a gun could have saved them. Just two different worlds in my opinion when it comes to gun violence.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:29 PM   #74
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no backup, just knowledge of human characteristic. Majority of people by nature will do the bare minimum to accomplish a task. I could be wrong since it is just my opinion, but if there is no requirement to do something I would think it is safe to assume most will not go out of there way to get training.



And this is where we will agree to disagree, something I am perfectly fine with. I'm sure by my stance you can tell I do not agree with the "right to bear arms". A gun is a lethal weapon, a tool used for wounding/killing, regardless whether or not it is protecting the user or the user is using it to harm others. Something so dangerous should have some form of regulation surrounding it, each individual screened. But yes, that is unpatriotic and will never happen under your current constitution.

I live in Edmonton, which was the most homicides (average 30 per year for 1 million people) in Canada, even nicknamed Deadmonton. And I have never felt the need or urge to purchase a weapon, be that a knife, shotgun, handgun, anything. I don't know anyone who owns a gun other than to hunt with, most use a bow. Majority of people who are killed here are involved in some form of crime themselves... not caught in the wrong place at the wrong time where having a gun could have saved them. Just two different worlds in my opinion when it comes to gun violence.
And yet, without legal guns (carrying) you have plenty of murders. A gun isn't more lethal than a knife, a car, alcohol, a tire iron, a baseball bat, or an ice climbing axe. They all have a function. I can bury an axe in your head, but that does not mean that is the primary function of the tool. To me, my guns are used for sport. I have fun with them. They can ALSO be used to keep my family safe. A baseball bat can be used to hit a ball, or bash a head in. And if you are ok with a gun for hunting, what's the problem then? Can that same hunting rifle not be used to kill a human? Or because that is not the primary purpose of a hunting rifle that makes it ok? Your logic doesn't add up.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:39 PM   #75
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I have never felt the need or urge to purchase a weapon, be that a knife, shotgun, handgun, anything.
K. Good for you. So since you get that nice comfy feeling then you or people like you should dictate to others what's best for them? We have the right to own firearms. If people want that changed, then call an article 5 convention and amend the constitution. Until then, it's the law of the land whether people like it or not.

On a side note, I might agree to more gun regulation like registering, more stringent background checks, etc. when we institute an educational requirement to vote. Doesn't that sound peachy?



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Old 01-07-2013, 04:48 PM   #76
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And yet, without legal guns (carrying) you have plenty of murders. A gun isn't more lethal than a knife, a car, alcohol, a tire iron, a baseball bat, or an ice climbing axe. They all have a function. I can bury an axe in your head, but that does not mean that is the primary function of the tool. To me, my guns are used for sport. I have fun with them. They can ALSO be used to keep my family safe. A baseball bat can be used to hit a ball, or bash a head in. And if you are ok with a gun for hunting, what's the problem then? Can that same hunting rifle not be used to kill a human? Or because that is not the primary purpose of a hunting rifle that makes it ok? Your logic doesn't add up.
I don't have the time to bust out the statistics, but majority of our homicides are from stabbings... it is around 20% or less from guns. I completely agree with your analogy that many things can be lethal, but you may have missed my point. A handgun has some pretty limited uses outside of protection, be it for your family, law enforcement, etc. I've shot plenty at the local firing range, and I agree, it is fun. I've never got the enjoyment required to purchase one, but I wouldn't have an issue with someone who owned a handgun because they liked taking it to the firing range every weekend. But they should be trained with it, and have proof in my opinion, which isn't a hard thing to acccomplish here.

I can stab you to death with a ballpoint pen. If you take that standpoint, pretty much anything is a lethal weapon (look at prison murders, those guys are pretty creative).

I think a lot of americans have become desensitized to guns, and are just generally more accepting of their presence. Ask the average canadian if they feel the need to own a gun for protection, and I already know the resounding answer will be no. It really is area dependent too, there are some bad cities and good cities, bad areas within cities, etc. My form of protection is to live in a statistically safer neighbourhood and avoid obvious dangerous situations like roaming downtown alone in the middle of the night. I had never heard a gunshot outside a range/hunting until I was in a hotel in downtown seattle last november, heard several that night.

I have obviously formed my opinion on my own empirical evidence, but I find the difference between our countries with all things guns to be very interesting.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:52 PM   #77
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I don't have the time to bust out the statistics, but majority of our homicides are from stabbings... it is around 20% or less from guns. I completely agree with your analogy that many things can be lethal, but you may have missed my point. A handgun has some pretty limited uses outside of protection, be it for your family, law enforcement, etc. I've shot plenty at the local firing range, and I agree, it is fun. I've never got the enjoyment required to purchase one, but I wouldn't have an issue with someone who owned a handgun because they liked taking it to the firing range every weekend. But they should be trained with it, and have proof in my opinion, which isn't a hard thing to acccomplish here.

I can stab you to death with a ballpoint pen. If you take that standpoint, pretty much anything is a lethal weapon (look at prison murders, those guys are pretty creative).

I think a lot of americans have become desensitized to guns, and are just generally more accepting of their presence. Ask the average canadian if they feel the need to own a gun for protection, and I already know the resounding answer will be no. It really is area dependent too, there are some bad cities and good cities, bad areas within cities, etc. My form of protection is to live in a statistically safer neighbourhood and avoid obvious dangerous situations like roaming downtown alone in the middle of the night. I had never heard a gunshot outside a range/hunting until I was in a hotel in downtown seattle last november, heard several that night.

I have obviously formed my opinion on my own empirical evidence, but I find the difference between our countries with all things guns to be very interesting.
So why is Canadialand not banning knives? To your other point, how is a person supposed to get good if they can't purchase a gun first and practice practice practice?

As for the safe neighborhoods, I don't know of too many burglars that like to rob poor folk, they generally don't have much to steal. Usually, burglaries happen in nice areas, where people have nice things to take.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:03 PM   #78
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So why is Canadialand not banning knives? To your other point, how is a person supposed to get good if they can't purchase a gun first and practice practice practice?

As for the safe neighborhoods, I don't know of too many burglars that like to rob poor folk, they generally don't have much to steal. Usually, burglaries happen in nice areas, where people have nice things to take.
Because I firmly believe the government and majority of people realize they are just tools, and its the people to blame. More focus is put on prisons, police enforcement, and rehabilitation & prevention than banning.

I live in one of the nicer areas of Edmonton, there are some home invasions and theft from / of vehicles, but I've lived in the area my entire life and never been personally affected, I had one neighbour who had his mountain bike stolen from his garage, that is it so far.

Found some interesting stats, we do have crime here but it tends to not escalate from non violent to violent.



From stats canada:

Quote:
Non-violent crime

As in previous years, 4 in 5 crimes reported by police in 2011 were non-violent in nature. Theft under $5,000, mischief, break-ins and administration of justice offences were the most common types of non-violent crimes.
Quote:
One in seven robberies involves a firearm

Between 1977 and 2002, the rate of robberies committed with a firearm declined steadily. Since then, the rate has remained stable.

A firearm was involved in 14% of all robberies in 2008, compared with 20% a decade earlier. Robberies committed with other weapons, most commonly knives, accounted for 29% of all incidents. No weapon was involved in the remaining 57%.
Police-reported robbery by type of weapon
Edit: link - http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...20724b-eng.htm
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:09 PM   #79
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In other words... you're fine with "restrictions" as long as they're in alignment with your personal thoughts, beliefs and attitudes.

If it's okay for the Government to forbid individuals under the age of 18 from legally purchasing firearms, then it would be okay for the Government to restrict individuals under the age of 450 from legally purchasing firearms.

Do you agree?
I'm comfortable with being an adult (18) prior to purchase. It was in line with the framers and militia requirements. Still in line to what we consider an adult in present day.

Minors should remain able to still possess them with supervision
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:10 PM   #80
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Because I firmly believe the government and majority of people realize they are just tools, and its the people to blame. More focus is put on prisons, police enforcement, and rehabilitation & prevention than banning.

I live in one of the nicer areas of Edmonton, there are some home invasions and theft from / of vehicles, but I've lived in the area my entire life and never been personally affected, I had one neighbour who had his mountain bike stolen from his garage, that is it so far.

Found some interesting stats, we do have crime here but it tends to not escalate from non violent to violent.



From stats canada:





Edit: link - http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...20724b-eng.htm
So you are a society of victims. You are ok with it because "all it was is a mountain bike." You need your wife to be raped or your son killed before you say "hey, I wish I had something to stop the intruder." Thats not how Americans (some) think. They don't want to be victims first.
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