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Old 01-07-2013, 05:14 PM   #81
badfast
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And yet, without legal guns (carrying) you have plenty of murders. A gun isn't more lethal than a knife, a car, alcohol, a tire iron, a baseball bat, or an ice climbing axe. They all have a function. I can bury an axe in your head, but that does not mean that is the primary function of the tool. To me, my guns are used for sport. I have fun with them. They can ALSO be used to keep my family safe. A baseball bat can be used to hit a ball, or bash a head in. And if you are ok with a gun for hunting, what's the problem then? Can that same hunting rifle not be used to kill a human? Or because that is not the primary purpose of a hunting rifle that makes it ok? Your logic doesn't add up.
Your logic doesn't add up. Why not use a hammer or baseball bat for self-defense? Why do you even care if some guns are restricted if you can defend yourself with a screwdriver equally as with a gun. @ the people claiming that a Louisville slugger is just as lethal as a gun.

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Old 01-07-2013, 05:19 PM   #82
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So you are a society of victims. You are ok with it because "all it was is a mountain bike." You need your wife to be raped or your son killed before you say "hey, I wish I had something to stop the intruder." Thats not how Americans (some) think. They don't want to be victims first.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:20 PM   #83
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So you are a society of victims. You are ok with it because "all it was is a mountain bike." You need your wife to be raped or your son killed before you say "hey, I wish I had something to stop the intruder." Thats not how Americans (some) think. They don't want to be victims first.
In all honesty, it's just different. There's not a single worry in my head about those sort of things, due to the very low chance they occur. I am very concerned with my gf going out with her friends on a friday night and getting date raped however, no form of protection is going to stop that besides being safe in other ways. The chance someone breaks into our condo and kills and rapes her is probably about the statistical odds as her dying in a plane crash. Those kinds of random acts of violence/crime are very rare... most crime is targeted / thought out.

And yes in a way, we are a society of "victims". I would prefer to describe it as a "society of mostly peaceful people who occasionally get taken advantage of" (like any "nice" person). If someone holds a gun to my head and demands my stuff, I'm going to give it to him. Physical possessions are just not worth risking your life over, no matter their material value. My neighbour had his garage open, because normally you don't have to worry about his stuff. He still leaves it open. Take it how you want, I love not having to drive home from work incase I forgot to lock my door.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:21 PM   #84
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So why is Canadialand not banning knives? To your other point, how is a person supposed to get good if they can't purchase a gun first and practice practice practice?

As for the safe neighborhoods, I don't know of too many burglars that like to rob poor folk, they generally don't have much to steal. Usually, burglaries happen in nice areas, where people have nice things to take.


Yeah, barred windows are just as popular in La Jolla as they are in Compton.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:29 PM   #85
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In a country of 300+ million its not fair to apply your own personal experience, I'm sure there are millions of handgun owners that haven't had a course etc.

I don't know a single person who owns a handgun, yet I'm sure there are many canadians who do, and I feel comfort in the fact they've are at least guaranteed some education... if not only to protect themselves.
+1

I don't get why you guys are so opposed to required testing/taking courses. If you're doing it already then why does it bother you? It'll just "help" (assuming it's a good course) those who don't, (and I do know gun owners who don't even pull out their guns once a year), and weed out the idiots (hopefully).
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:40 PM   #86
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personally, i think that a firearms safety course should be taught in schools, as well as mandatory driver's ed. there should also be an entire semester dedicated to developing our children's common sense.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:44 PM   #87
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personally, i think that a firearms safety course should be taught in schools, as well as mandatory driver's ed. there should also be an entire semester dedicated to developing our children's common sense.
Can you imagine the amount of bickering in Congress if they tried to decide what's common sense?
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:55 PM   #88
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Can you imagine the amount of bickering in Congress if they tried to decide what's common sense?
oh god.

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Old 01-07-2013, 05:59 PM   #89
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+1

I don't get why you guys are so opposed to required testing/taking courses. If you're doing it already then why does it bother you? It'll just "help" (assuming it's a good course) those who don't, (and I do know gun owners who don't even pull out their guns once a year), and weed out the idiots (hopefully).
Mandatory means required prerequisite to exercising a right.
That's my issue.

If you make it mandatory, what's the course requirement? Days, hours? Exam? Scale of grading? Who is in charge of deciding pass/fail, grading metrics, course contents, decertification, recertification? Will I be denied my gun rights if I don't/can't pass some politicians idea of a "fair" test? Lose the ability to defend myself when I grow old and reflexes diminish when I'll need a force multiplier the MOST in my elder years with obvious disparity of force not in my favor

Slippery slope to allow politicians to create the ability to decide our rights
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I agree with JonJon.

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Old 01-07-2013, 06:20 PM   #90
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JonJon has a completely valid point, it is every american citizens constitutional right to bear arms. Therefore you cannot create any sort of mandatory requirement.

I disagree completely with the constitutional right itself though! Just as a car is an earned privilege, I feel guns should be treated the same... and many other things that currently are not
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:31 PM   #91
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I call bs...in years of playing shooters, the one thing I've learned is head shot = one shot kill. He should have died right away. Unless he had body armor.

That said, I too like hearing these stories. However, I don't think revolvers make for good protection. An inexperienced shooter is likely to clear the gun out right away, as was the case in this instance. The issue is if the attacker could still attack because she either missed multiple times or the attacker was stupid and wouldn't just give up, she would be defenceless with an empty barrel. My Glock has a 17 round mag and I have two fully loaded. Why? Because it would really suck if I needed 18 bullets to protect my family in a bad situation.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:49 PM   #92
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JonJon has a completely valid point, it is every american citizens constitutional right to bear arms. Therefore you cannot create any sort of mandatory requirement.

I disagree completely with the constitutional right itself though! Just as a car is an earned privilege, I feel guns should be treated the same... and many other things that currently are not
the constitutional right was put in place by our founding fathers for us citizens to protect ourselves not just from someone trying to do us physical harm, but also from oppressive or tyrannical governments who try to rob us of our rights and liberties as a free people.

whether you disagree with it or not people have the right to defend themselves. and there is no arguing that a firearm is one of the most efficient ways of defending one's self. do i think that some people are not responsible enough to own firearms? yes i do. but i also think that some people dont have the capacity to raise a child.

i dont know of a more appropriate time to own a firearm then when your government wants you to start handing them over

and i cant understand why some americans, citizens of a nation that prides it's self for being free would be comfortable giving up their freedoms that so many people have died securing and defending. why would you let your fellow countrymen die in vain?
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:30 PM   #93
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JonJon has a completely valid point, it is every american citizens constitutional right to bear arms. Therefore you cannot create any sort of mandatory requirement.

I disagree completely with the constitutional right itself though! Just as a car is an earned privilege, I feel guns should be treated the same... and many other things that currently are not
Well... driving/traveling whatever you wanna call it IS a right IMHO.
We have the right to travel freely. Whether that is on feet, bike or in car. Travel freely on public roads we own and pay for through taxation. I've done quite a bit of research on this topic and there is plenty of case law and history to back up my opinion that it is a right for private travel on public roads

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the constitutional right was put in place by our founding fathers for us citizens to protect ourselves not just from someone trying to do us physical harm, but also from oppressive or tyrannical governments who try to rob us of our rights and liberties as a free people.

i dont know of a more appropriate time to own a firearm then when your government wants you to start handing them over

and i cant understand why some americans, citizens of a nation that prides it's self for being free would be comfortable giving up their freedoms that so many people have died securing and defending. why would you let your fellow countrymen die in vain?
This... all day... every day
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I agree with JonJon.

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Old 01-07-2013, 07:33 PM   #94
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I call bs...in years of playing shooters, the one thing I've learned is head shot = one shot kill. He should have died right away. Unless he had body armor.

That said, I too like hearing these stories. However, I don't think revolvers make for good protection. An inexperienced shooter is likely to clear the gun out right away, as was the case in this instance. The issue is if the attacker could still attack because she either missed multiple times or the attacker was stupid and wouldn't just give up, she would be defenceless with an empty barrel. My Glock has a 17 round mag and I have two fully loaded. Why? Because it would really suck if I needed 18 bullets to protect my family in a bad situation.
your 18 rounds would be gone in less time than you could fart. And you wouldn't even remember shooting them.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:40 PM   #95
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Mandatory means required prerequisite to exercising a right.
That's my issue.

If you make it mandatory, what's the course requirement? Days, hours? Exam? Scale of grading? Who is in charge of deciding pass/fail, grading metrics, course contents, decertification, recertification? Will I be denied my gun rights if I don't/can't pass some politicians idea of a "fair" test? Lose the ability to defend myself when I grow old and reflexes diminish when I'll need a force multiplier the MOST in my elder years with obvious disparity of force not in my favor

Slippery slope to allow politicians to create the ability to decide our rights
JJ, why does it have to be a politician? No one is asking Feinstein to create a program. Why couldn't the NRA run such a program? The NRA already offers plenty of safety courses. Not only could the NRA bring in more money but increase its membership.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:41 PM   #96
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Your logic doesn't add up. Why not use a hammer or baseball bat for self-defense? Why do you even care if some guns are restricted if you can defend yourself with a screwdriver equally as with a gun. @ the people claiming that a Louisville slugger is just as lethal as a gun.
Wow, you are mental midget. He claimed most violent crimes were carried out using a knife. Baseball bats and hammers in the US are responsible for more deaths than guns. They are all very effective against an unarmed individual. Furthermore, an old lady can't swing a bat. A normal person, such as a pansie like yourself, cant defend themselves with a knife, as it is the WORST weapon of defense unless your are a professional knife fighter, and most likely going to get stabbed with your own knife. The only equalizer is a gun. It is a weapon that anyone can use, and can be used at a safe distance, unlike the other weapons. Now slam your skull against your desk until something useful comes out.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:43 PM   #97
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Mandatory means required prerequisite to exercising a right.
That's my issue.

If you make it mandatory, what's the course requirement? Days, hours? Exam? Scale of grading? Who is in charge of deciding pass/fail, grading metrics, course contents, decertification, recertification? Will I be denied my gun rights if I don't/can't pass some politicians idea of a "fair" test? Lose the ability to defend myself when I grow old and reflexes diminish when I'll need a force multiplier the MOST in my elder years with obvious disparity of force not in my favor

Slippery slope to allow politicians to create the ability to decide our rights
I agree that it'd be tough to get a reasonable set of requirements out. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist though. My thoughts were more along the lines of a basic firearm safety and training course, as well as a more thorough background check that includes mental health. Reflexes shouldn't matter, but if you are aging and start showing signs of Alzheimer's, you should be required to give up your concealed carry permit.

Owning a gun, especially concealed carry, is a serious decision that requires the gun-bearer realize that they, at some point, may end somebody's life. While most people are rational & level-headed (like the majority of this forum), some are not. A check to ensure that these people don't suffer from a psychiatric illness that impairs their judgment, or isn't for example a recurrent IVDA (IV drug abuser) is something I think is perfectly reasonable and can provide benefits.

As a note: just because it's a right doesn't mean there's no restrictions. Just like there are limitations to freedom of speech, there should be restrictions on the second amendment. You agree that the legal age to purchase a firearm is 18 years of age. This is a restriction. The question is where the line should be drawn.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:43 PM   #98
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In all honesty, it's just different. There's not a single worry in my head about those sort of things, due to the very low chance they occur. I am very concerned with my gf going out with her friends on a friday night and getting date raped however, no form of protection is going to stop that besides being safe in other ways. The chance someone breaks into our condo and kills and rapes her is probably about the statistical odds as her dying in a plane crash. Those kinds of random acts of violence/crime are very rare... most crime is targeted / thought out.

And yes in a way, we are a society of "victims". I would prefer to describe it as a "society of mostly peaceful people who occasionally get taken advantage of" (like any "nice" person). If someone holds a gun to my head and demands my stuff, I'm going to give it to him. Physical possessions are just not worth risking your life over, no matter their material value. My neighbour had his garage open, because normally you don't have to worry about his stuff. He still leaves it open. Take it how you want, I love not having to drive home from work incase I forgot to lock my door.
Do you have a guarantee that after you give him your stuff, he will let you walk away?

Furthermore, if you are a society of peaceful people, then it should be absolutely no problem if everyone was walking around with a gun...you would be a very well protected society of armed peaceful people....works for Switzerland.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:44 PM   #99
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Slap a little harder. You're from Chicago, so your opinion on guns is about as useful as a c0ck flavored lollipop. I hear it's really safe there...was thinking of buying a penthouse on the south side.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:45 PM   #100
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and i cant understand why some americans, citizens of a nation that prides it's self for being free would be comfortable giving up their freedoms that so many people have died securing and defending. why would you let your fellow countrymen die in vain?
This argument only appeals to emotions but it makes no logical sense. People should be doing what makes sense logically given the situation, not based on what other people have done before them in a different situation.
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