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Old 01-16-2013, 08:39 PM   #61
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Unfortunately, the NRA and the gun lobby have, through their Congressional Quislings, quashed, prevented or even outlawed research into gun and violence issues. Perhaps they are well aware of and nervous about what the empirical results would be and what policy directions they might indicate. This of course impedes a more rational and fact-based discussion of gun and violence issues leaving more fervid and emotional approaches to fill the void. Fortunately. Obama has proposed eliminating this de facto ban on conducting/funding such basic research.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:50 PM   #62
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Unfortunately, the NRA and the gun lobby have, through their Congressional Quislings, quashed, prevented or even outlawed research into gun and violence issues. Perhaps they are well aware of and nervous about what the empirical results would be and what policy directions they might indicate. This of course impedes a more rational and fact-based discussion of gun and violence issues leaving more fervid and emotional approaches to fill the void. Fortunately. Obama has proposed eliminating this de facto ban on conducting/funding such basic research.
Wtf
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:51 PM   #63
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I don't think gang bangers, drug traffickers and armed robbers meet the average profile of a NRA member.

NRA members usually don't drive around town with raised cars, 21 inch wheels , gold teeth and rap music blaring from their radios.


BTW Lair, do you own any guns ? How many and what kind ?

9MM Desert Eagle here with 2 x 15 round magazines.
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Mass school shootings aren't being done by thugs from the hood... Is that what you're suggesting?
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:15 PM   #64
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Wtf
Some studies done before such research was squelched indicated that in-home guns were very significantly (somewhere on the order of 40Xs???) more likely to harm the owner or residents through accidents, suicide or intra-resident violence/shootings than for protecting them through interdicting break-ins and the like.

Such now older data may not be as currently relevant, but they would certainly speak to the need for more up-to-date studies. Who knows, the results may, or may not, bolster the arguments of anti gun-control advocates.

While such data may not dictate gun policy decisions, it could certainly inform those discussions and give an empirical foundation to them. Ideological reality checks are a good thing to see if various ideals and policies are indeed delivering on there promise of overall societal benefit or rather, detracting from it and thus warrant review and modification.

Last edited by Rhumb; 01-16-2013 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:23 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Raymond42262 View Post
I don't think gang bangers, drug traffickers and armed robbers meet the average profile of a NRA member.

NRA members usually don't drive around town with raised cars, 21 inch wheels , gold teeth and rap music blaring from their radios.


BTW Lair, do you own any guns ? How many and what kind ?

9MM Desert Eagle here with 2 x 15 round magazines.
I'm a liberal, remember? The NRA says liberals don't own any guns.


Come try to rob me. I promise you won't get shot.

Get back to me when Obama's kids get death threats from people who drive around town with raised cars, 21 inch wheels , gold teeth and rap music blaring from their radios.

They need to be protected from crazy, angry white people who have Desert Eagles and AR's.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:23 PM   #66
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do you support arming all the police and secret service with .38 revolvers?
Not everyone all the time. Depends on the nature of their responsibility and training.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:48 PM   #67
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The NRA has a lot of balls publishing that - considering that most of their members are the very people that his kids need to be protected from.
Dumbest fu*ing thing I've ever heard from you.

Maybe if your uncle didn't blow your dog away when you were a kid your views wouldn't be forever changed to fear things you dont understand.

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Dont mistake me for a fan of Obama. I'm saying there's plenty of hypocrisy to go around and singling out one politician is counterproductive.
True all politicians including the GOP have armed guards. Difference being they aren't trying to take the capability to provide the protection for ourselves.

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Old 01-17-2013, 12:16 AM   #68
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I don't understand angry white guys who walk into an elementary school or a theater and murder dozens of people.

Maybe you can shed some fvcking light on that for me.
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:23 AM   #69
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I don't understand angry white guys who walk into an elementary school or a theater and murder dozens of people.

Maybe you can shed some fvcking light on that for me.
Mental Issues

Wow, like that took 1 min to figure out
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:41 AM   #70
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Statistically speaking........school shootings and theater shootings are a small percentage of murders. Most are done by people you know.

Generally speaking, a murder victim knows the man that shot him about 90 percent of the time.

As unfortunate as this circumstance was, it does not justify the attention or the measures that Obama , Biden and others want to make. I don't have a problem with police checks or even limiting magazines to 10 rounds. But that is about it. Banning 'assault style' rifles just because someone does not like the way they look is not going to change anything.

The murders at Sandy Hook, Columbine and the theater in Colorado were done by mentally unstable people. That is where the focus should be.
Statistically speaking, presidential assassinations aren't committed or attempted by gangsta hood rats. I'm not aware of a precedent for an attempt against the First Family.

Lair insinuated that NRA members are the ones likely to go after Obama's kids. You replied by saying that gang bangers aren't NRA members.

So unless you can establish some connection between gang bangers and political assassination attempts, the correct response to Swish's question is "you're right, my bad".

What you MAY want to do is argue with Lair about whether or not NRA members are the most substantial threat to Obama's kids. But immediately jumping to gang bangers doesn't make a lot of sense.

And FWIW, I agree with you about mentally unstable people, but that's a much tougher hill to climb and not nearly as sound-bite friendly.

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Unfortunately, the NRA and the gun lobby have, through their Congressional Quislings, quashed, prevented or even outlawed research into gun and violence issues. Perhaps they are well aware of and nervous about what the empirical results would be and what policy directions they might indicate. This of course impedes a more rational and fact-based discussion of gun and violence issues leaving more fervid and emotional approaches to fill the void. Fortunately. Obama has proposed eliminating this de facto ban on conducting/funding such basic research.
IF what you say about the NRA's attitude towards research is correct, given the emotionally charged back-and-forth rantings between the various sides that's going on now, they may have been smart to do so. No matter what the results of the research, every side of the gun debate would scream from the hilltops how it supported their view.
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:49 AM   #71
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Mental Issues

Wow, like that took 1 min to figure out
And now, those mentally-disturbed people are thinking of ways to get to Barack Obama because he's fvcking with their guns.

Cue the NRA's commercial.
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:17 AM   #72
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And now, those mentally-disturbed people are thinking of ways to get to Barack Obama because he's fvcking with their guns.

Cue the NRA's commercial.
If you examine their choice of words - esp. Elitist, it's intended to strike a chord with the moderately educated rural red population who wouldn't know any better.

I can totally see the NRA ad fvcking with the minds of the Jared Loughner wannabes.

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Old 01-17-2013, 05:30 AM   #73
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Not everyone all the time. Depends on the nature of their responsibility and training.


Throw out "responsibility", as guarding the president is a pretty hefty responsibility in and of itself. Unless you're just referring to the individual agent's personal responsibility he or she has as a person.

So would you allow individuals the same firearms based upon their training (and personal responsibility) as well? How do we judge personal responsibility? Not having committed any violent crimes in the past?
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:29 AM   #74
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Mental Issues

Wow, like that took 1 min to figure out
Source?

Amazing how you figured it all out. There was only one contributing variable in all this. I am astonished!

While yes the guy had mental problems, that is more than likely not the only contributing factor to all this.
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:47 AM   #75
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Source?

Amazing how you figured it all out. There was only one contributing variable in all this. I am astonished!

While yes the guy had mental problems, that is more than likely not the only contributing factor to all this.
Obviously the 30 round magazine is what separates a non-violent gun owner from a mass murderer. Or maybe it's the barrel shroud. Or the flash suppressor? I know looking at the flash suppressor on my sig makes me feel a bit unstable sometimes.
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:21 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Raymond42262 View Post
Statistically speaking........school shootings and theater shootings are a small percentage of murders. Most are done by people you know.

Generally speaking, a murder victim knows the man that shot him about 90 percent of the time.

As unfortunate as this circumstance was, it does not justify the attention or the measures that Obama , Biden and others want to make. I don't have a problem with police checks or even limiting magazines to 10 rounds. But that is about it. Banning 'assault style' rifles just because someone does not like the way they look is not going to change anything.

The murders at Sandy Hook, Columbine and the theater in Colorado were done by mentally unstable people. That is where the focus should be.
I agree with most of your statement, although there's some other things I'd also take into consideration. But when you say that the focus should be on the mental health aspect, what do you mean? Do we need to increase the level of mental health care in the country or do you just want to keep an eye on the 'crazies'?
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Originally Posted by Rhumb View Post
Unfortunately, the NRA and the gun lobby have, through their Congressional Quislings, quashed, prevented or even outlawed research into gun and violence issues. Perhaps they are well aware of and nervous about what the empirical results would be and what policy directions they might indicate. This of course impedes a more rational and fact-based discussion of gun and violence issues leaving more fervid and emotional approaches to fill the void. Fortunately. Obama has proposed eliminating this de facto ban on conducting/funding such basic research.
Incredible. Add to that the fact that they snuck in provisions to ensure that the ATF is completely powerless...
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:33 AM   #77
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Magazine capacity is a non factor according to the Gov't study. The BT shooter fired 170 round and guess what. He had 17 ten round mags. Placing an arbitrary number on the capacity won't have a substantial effect. There is Southside information out there it's very one sided anti gun.
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:35 AM   #78
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IF what you say about the NRA's attitude towards research is correct, given the emotionally charged back-and-forth rantings between the various sides that's going on now, they may have been smart to do so. No matter what the results of the research, every side of the gun debate would scream from the hilltops how it supported their view.
Smart, maybe? But ethical? Reasonable? No.

Also consider that the ATF is essentially leaderless and powerless thanks to the actions of the NRA and the politicians they sponsor:
Tiahrt Amendment

Tiahrt is the author of the Tiahrt Amendment, which prohibits the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) from releasing information from its firearms trace database to anyone other than a law enforcement agency or prosecutor in connection with a criminal investigation. Additionally, any data so released is inadmissible in a civil lawsuit.[5] Some groups, including the Mayors Against Illegal Guns Coalition, believe that having further access to the ATF database would help municipal police departments track down sellers of illegal guns and curb crime. These groups are trying to undo the Tiahrt Amendment.[6] Numerous police organizations oppose the Tiahrt Amendment, such as the Major Cities Chiefs Association (MCCA) and the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP).[7] Conversely, the Tiahrt Amendment is supported by the Fraternal Order of Police, although it allows municipal police departments limited access to ATF trace data in any criminal investigation.
The reason why no one is even leading the agency is because Wisconsin Congressman James Sensenbrenner inserted a provision into the PATRIOT ACT of all places that the Senate has to confirm the ATF director...

Seen here with his "Defender of Freedom" award given to him by the NRA:


U.S. Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) received the NRA-ILA Defender of Freedom Award from Chris Cox.

How does preventing the ATF from getting a director defend our freedom?

The ATF can't even require dealers to take inventory, thanks to whom? Tiahrt Amendment! :
The agency has about 600 inspectors responsible for 60,000 retail gun dealers around the country. Dealers on average are inspected once every eight years. An estimated 10,500 compliance inspections were done last year. The agency revokes about 110 licenses a year, and dealers facing revocation voluntarily surrender their licenses in an additional 160 cases annually.

In 2001, ATF officials proposed that dealers be required to take inventory at least once a year to ensure that every weapon was accounted for, Helmke said. But after Congress approved the so-called Tiahrt Amendment in 2003, named for then-Rep. Todd Tiahrt (R-Kan.), the ATF was barred from requiring gun dealers to take inventories.

"Since the Tiahrt Amendment specifically says that ATF cannot require it," Helmke said, "it really ties their hands before they get started.

"Part of the problem is that ATF has been treated as the illegitimate stepchild. They don't have the funding, they don't have the staffing."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012500867.html
So, when pro-gun advocates say that there is plenty of laws and they just need to be enforced, they and the NRA seem to be talking out of two sides of the mouths, don't they?

As for that pesky amendment... this quote is the scariest:
In July 2003, as the Chicago case was headed to the U.S. Supreme Court, Tiahrt surprised colleagues on the Appropriations Committee with a broad amendment limiting gun trace release and tied it to ATF's budget.
"I wanted to make sure I was fulfilling the needs of my friends who are firearms dealers," Tiahrt said, according to a Washington Post article from the time. "(National Rifle Association officials) were helpful in making sure I had my bases covered." http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/wat.../84873522.html
For people who are so scared of the government, shouldn't you be even more scared when an outside group is writing our laws???
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:43 AM   #79
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Next the SBA should mandate that all small businesses take an annual inventory and report their findings to a national database in order to control crime.
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:44 AM   #80
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I don't understand angry white guys who walk into an elementary school or a theater and murder dozens of people.

Maybe you can shed some fvcking light on that for me.
You really want to bring race into a discussion about gun violence?
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