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Old 01-18-2013, 09:19 AM   #141
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Oh, and to all those idiotic comments from 4 years ago about Obama not wanting to go after a ban... Hate to say I told you so...


He never pursued any ban until your angry white brethren started murdering elementary school kids by the dozen.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:27 AM   #142
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He never pursued any ban until your angry white brethren started murdering elementary school kids by the dozen.
I guess he's just used to black people murdering, right?


p.s - what angry white person did that? I think you meant to say emotionally disturbed white person
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:30 AM   #143
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I always thought it was a possibility that he would pursue it......with that said, I don't think he'll be successful.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:30 AM   #144
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He never pursued any ban until your angry white brethren started murdering elementary school kids by the dozen.
Sorry, but a lot has happened in the few years he has been in office...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States

And calling for a ban because 20 children were killed in a gun free zone, when his own capitol city has more gun violence and crime than 20 sandy hooks...

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/...6391351611702/

But, I guess he can ignore the gangs, and the rapists, and murder in Chicago. "Gun control works, just don't look at my state. Believe me when I say taking ar15s off the street would have stopped those 20 kids from dying. I know what I am talking about, I put Biden in charge!" -Obama
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:35 AM   #145
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I always thought it was a possibility that he would pursue it......with that said, I don't think he'll be successful.
I always knew it was a possibility, but hardcore liberals were like lol tea bagger Obama is as moderate as Reagan
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:40 AM   #146
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I always knew it was a possibility, but hardcore liberals were like lol tea bagger Obama is as moderate as Reagan
Ford, Carter, Reagan Push for Gun Ban
In their letter, the three former presidents said: "This is a matter of vital importance to the public safety. . . . Although assault weapons account for less than 1% of the guns in circulation, they account for nearly 10% of the guns traced to crime. . . .
"While we recognize that assault-weapon legislation will not stop all assault-weapon crime, statistics prove that we can dry up the supply of these guns, making them less accessible to criminals.
"We urge you to listen to the American public and to the law enforcement community and support a ban on the further manufacture of these weapons."
Need more?
Congressman Scott Klug, a Republican from Wisconsin was an opponent of the assault weapon ban and the day before the vote stated his opposition to the ban. Klug only changed his voted after "a last minute plea from President Reagan" in the form of a handwritten note.
"Dear Scott: As a longtime gun owner and supporter of the right to bear arms, I, too, have carefully thought about this issue. I am convinced that the limitations imposed in this bill are absolutely necessary," Reagan wrote Klug. "I know there is heavy pressure on you to go the other way, but I strongly urge you to join me in supporting this bill. It must be passed. Sincerely, Ronald Reagan." http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...ising-details/
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:43 AM   #147
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It makes perfect sense if you pull your head out of your ass and listen. The only real data we have is FBI statistics. They report how many crimes happened, and by what means. You look at overall numbers, or broken down by states, city, etc. In places where guns are banned, crime is up, because only criminals have them.

In places where there are guns, there is less crime, because everything is equal. No society will be a perfect utopia, and the very same thing you are asking for proof of, can be asked of you.

Show me the stats that make your case... Less guns, less crime. Show me where in the US, where we have data you can prove your case. Ignoring the rest of the world, as we are not the rest of the world, where in America can you show less to no guns make crime rates go down?

Arguing global warming exists, and backing it with scientific data, collected by those on the payrolls of the government is EXACTLY the same. I am not arguing one or the other in that debate, but listening to the way those arguments go is the same way this seems to go. "Look, data, and charts, and this guy said this, and that guy said that, and everything changed .2 degrees over this amount of time, and this and that, how could you not agree????"

Other guy: "I want to see actual proof that show WE are the cause, not just a number that fluctuates within a specified time frame, which it has done throughout the ages"

First guy: "You are the dumbest, most ignorant human being ever, and I refuse to play this game. I gave you all the data you need, and you just don't want to admit you are wrong"

Other guy: "I gave data too, and you ignored it. Blah, blah, blah, suck it."

It is exactly the same. No one here is an expert. No one here is discussing things with an open mind. Emotion is running through everyone, because no one can discuss things rationally.

Answer this for me. What would banning "assault weapons" (made up political term for semi auto rifle) do? What would banning "High capacity clips" (magazines) do? Do you have any data within this nation to suggest that a new ban will stop people who want to get a weapon and kill people?

If we have anything to learn, in many cases the ban/laws did not help. Columbine used a weapon bought in the first ban. VT used limited round mags and still killed people. Sandy Hook showed that a kid who should not have been able to carry, or use those weapons legally did anyway. Why are you not asking to ban semi auto shotguns? Is the AR-15 that much more deadly? What about pistols? Had Sandy Hook not happened, would you still be pushing for this?

Oh, and to all those idiotic comments from 4 years ago about Obama not wanting to go after a ban... Hate to say I told you so...
Your post is full of so many assumptions and fallacies. Post studies to support your claims. Other than that nothing you say means anything. As the guy that believes in the Sandy Hook conspiracy, denies science (based on what btw?) and believes in false causation there is nothing left to discuss with you. You constantly argue from a position of ignorance. You also are extremely biased towards your own particular viewpoints making the only relevant information the information that supports your position. You seem to not care how this information is acquired either. Even if you have to fill in the gaps you fill them in with your own preconceived notions. Your arguments are weak but you are deeply entrenched within your beliefs. Done with you.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:46 AM   #148
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Your post is full of so many assumptions and fallacies. Post studies to support your claims. Other than that nothing you say means anything. As the guy that believes in the Sandy Hook conspiracy, denies science (based on what btw?) and believes in false causation there is nothing left to discuss with you. You constantly argue from a position of ignorance. You also are extremely biased towards your own particular viewpoints making the only relevant information the information that supports your position. You seem to not care how this information is acquired either. Even if you have to fill in the gaps you fill them in with your own preconceived notions. Your arguments are weak but you are deeply entrenched within your beliefs. Done with you.
Is anyone surprised anymore when discussions like these happen, and these types of people are involved?
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:50 AM   #149
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I always knew it was a possibility, but hardcore liberals were like lol tea bagger Obama is as moderate as Reagan
Obama has a LOT of similarities with Reagan, both Dubya's and Clinton.....both for the good and the bad.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:02 AM   #150
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http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_stud...terproductive/

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]

http://www.cato.org/publications/com...yths-realities
The basic premise of the gun control movement, that easy access to guns causes higher crime, is contradicted by the facts, by history and by reason.

http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/
The United States has the highest rate of gun ownership in the world - by far. And it has the highest rate of homicides with guns among advanced countries. But, again, those are statistics and not demonstrative of a causal relationship. The National Research Council of the National Academies concluded in its report that studies comparing large geographic areas, what it called "ecological studies," didn't show a distinct trend, and instead "provide[d] contradictory evidence on violence and firearms."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...-thomas-sowell
After Newtown's tragedy, the advocates are at it again. But there just is no correlation between gun ownership and murder rates

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...up-crime-down/
FBI violent-crime rates show safer nation with more gun owners

http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/17/wh...t-gun-control/
The main problem with gun-control laws is that they don't work.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybel...control-lobby/
With private firearm ownership at an all-time high and violent crime rates plunging, none of the scary scenarios they advanced have materialized. Abuse of responsibility by armed citizens is rare, while successful defensive interventions against assaults on their lives and property are relatively commonplace.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/gun-control-...rol-advocates/
After the Newtown, Connecticut mass murder, anti-rights politicians and media shifted into high gear. The only "solution" for such a tragedy was another gun ban; within two days, Senator Dianne Feinstein introduced her version. Pundits like the Washington Post's Ezra Klein politicized the tragedy by claiming that America is an unusually violent place, with the only answer being more gun control.

There's a problem with all of their hyperbole: it is based upon myth and manipulated data.

Shall I go on? No bias either. Some of these site state inconclusive data, but show that in many cases, self defense and stopping an attack more than multiply the actual murder rate by over 40 times.

I'll just wait here, cause you have a lot of reading to do.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:02 AM   #151
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What "questions" do you have, and who told you to have them?


LOOK OUT! THERE'S A SUSPICIOUS VAN BEHIND YOU!
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:04 AM   #152
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What "questions" do you have, and who told you to have them?
Are you retarded? Serious question.

No one told me to have anything. I watched some video, unedited and no bias and saw things that did not match what the news said. All I am asking for it clarity on the situation that caused this great gun debate.

Caught your edit, douche.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:09 AM   #153
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LOOK OUT FOR THAT VAN!

Got your gun out yet?
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:13 AM   #154
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LOOK OUT FOR THAT VAN!

Got your gun out yet?
Typical response from a clueless person looking for internet high fives from his circle jerk buddies...

Move on.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:14 AM   #155
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LOOK OUT!!!!!1

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Old 01-18-2013, 10:56 AM   #156
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Still waiting Bedfast.

Let me know when you are done being schooled.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:48 PM   #157
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I own my fair share of firearms, I support the right to carry, I support castle law statutes, I do not want my right to own firearms infringed upon with useless AWB's and magazine restrictions. In addition to these I support variety of other pro-2nd amendment items.


With that said, I do not like the NRA.
<-- Another guy here.

I dont belong to the NRA but carry a gun everyday.

I dont agree with alot of things and feel the represent largely hunters(or did in the past). they left us out to dry the last time the AWB came around and I haven't forgotten.

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I'm sure you'd find nothing wrong with it if Planned Parenthood wrote legislation and an elected representative said he made sure it conforms to their needs.


I'm considering getting a gun (not out of fear of laws or people, just because) and I kind of hate the idea of getting lumped under the same umbrella as the NRA.





You seriously think that the NRA is only about freedom?
The NRA isn't all of us.

We arent all conservative nutjobs who are god loving,gay hating, abortion haters.

If the liberals would back off of guns they would get more support from the center who agree with some aspects of what they say. I feel after this no chance a Democrat makes it to the office next term.

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So I google GOA and the first result is their website with the following statement below it:
Gun Owners of America - The only no compromise gun lobby in Washington.
Really?! What's so wrong with compromise?

Looking at their website, it gets worse. They have "Tea Party Talk" books with points to help in arguing against your "liberal acquaintances"? Are gun owners only allowed to be conservative? Are liberals not allowed to be gun owners too?


I understand it's somewhat satisfying to piss off those you don't like, but wouldn't bridging the gap be much more efficient?
They've repeatedly made it more and more difficult for the ATF to do their job and they've lobbied against research that would help us understand more about gun violence.
[/QUOTE]

Why do you feel we dont like you?

I dont talk about poltics in public and chances are if we met you wouldn't know for a long time I was a republican. Fact is only extremists act this way.

Most gun owners are either republicans from the start or converted from the other side when they see what the liberals would like to do to soemthing they enjoy doing and offers them protection from others who want to harm them.

Fact is I have taken a ton of people shooting and a good portion of them are liberals. Not a single person didn't like it.

Its challenging and fun to shoot. I bought a gun to punch holes in paper and thats all my guns do.

If someday it happens to punch a hole in a bad guy trying to harm me then so be it and I will have to carry a huge burden for the rest of my life. At least I get to keep living.

As far as the ATF why not bring up the topic separate from a ban?

If the issue truely is enforcement then doesn't that fall back onto the president?

It seems as though he skipped a few steps and went straight for an AWB.


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Maybe not strawman, but what do you call it when you take the opinions of a few and make it out like everyone thinks that way.


I don't know that I'm trying to achieve anything other than to show how I see the NRA. I think their behavior is counterproductive and ultimately hurts their own cause and the general discourse. They've stifled research and wiggled their way into legislation. Much like I wouldn't want any corporation, NGO or other unelected entity doing that, I don't want them doing it either. Is that weird?

Have I said anything about guns I like or dislike or anything that should be outlawed?


You hate the NRA.. We get it but do you hate us as gun owners? It seems so by your threads that you hate guns.

Dont compare it to alcohol or driving those are privledges. We are talking about rights here and I dont believe in compromise that effects mine.

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Honestly, I don't think you can prevent shootings like these unless you banned every single firearm out there. I neither advocate this nor do I think it is possible in this country. This is the society we've chosen to live in and that's a cost of it.

I wrote a bigger reply in the other thread.
You are right.

Maybe you didn't know but I can make a shotgun out of some pipe.

I can make an functional AR15 lower(trigger group/the part considered a gun) out of a cutting board.

Ban every gun,shut down every factory that produces anything related to guns(including the governments), Keep them out of the hands of the police(get stolen/misused), Make ownership of guns carry serious prison time.


Take guns from the world and I will hand mine over. Until then I prefer a level playing field.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:55 PM   #158
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Still reading bedfast?

I guess I'll wait a little longer.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:59 PM   #159
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If the liberals would back off of guns they would get more support from the center who agree with some aspects of what they say.
Back off how far? All the way? It seems that nothing but completely backing down will be accepted.

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Fact is I have taken a ton of people shooting and a good portion of them are liberals. Not a single person didn't like it.

Its challenging and fun to shoot. I bought a gun to punch holes in paper and thats all my guns do.
I'm considering it myself.

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As far as the ATF why not bring up the topic separate from a ban?
I don't think you'll find a quote from me where I argued for a ban.

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If the issue truely is enforcement then doesn't that fall back onto the president?
What can he do?

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You hate the NRA.. We get it but do you hate us as gun owners? It seems so by your threads that you hate guns.
Probably 30% of the people I consider my friends have guns. I can't hate guns. They're an inanimate object. I hate the politics that surround guns. The lobbying. The emotions that these discussions spark.

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Dont compare it to alcohol or driving those are privledges. We are talking about rights here and I dont believe in compromise that effects mine.
Sorry, but there will always be a need for compromise.

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Take guns from the world and I will hand mine over. Until then I prefer a level playing field.
I don't. I'm perfectly fine with guns. If no one had a gun, then physical size or strength in numbers would determine the winner of any conflict. Guns are an equalizer. I'm all for them.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:14 PM   #160
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Back off how far? All the way? It seems that nothing but completely backing down will be accepted.
Address legitimate issues like I said the president has put a ban on assault style guns and magazines on the table. To me that is a huge escalation. If the line to reach 50/50 on a compromise is this then he just made it 80/20.

Wheres the middle?

I dont know. You had some decent points about the ATF lets start there and maybe enforcment of the laws on the books rather than throwing new ones int he mix.



Quote:
I don't think you'll find a quote from me where I argued for a ban.
But HE is. And isn't that what everyone of these threads is at the root.

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What can he do?
He is beloved by millions. If he came out after sandy hook and said. I want a director of the ATF and enforcement on all existing laws he wouldn't meet much resistance.

Instead he goes for the jugular.

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Probably 30% of the people I consider my friends have guns. I can't hate guns. They're an inanimate object. I hate the politics that surround guns. The lobbying. The emotions that these discussions spark.

Its annoying but needs to be talked about.


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Sorry, but there will always be a need for compromise.
What about the 1st amendment?

Right to a fair trial?
Search and seizure?

Why are some amendments sacred but others require compromise?

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