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Old 01-17-2013, 12:30 PM   #21
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I know of nothing that he has done that is bad enough for me to terminate my membership or call for his resignation. The opinion of GHWB to terminate his membership doesn't sway me. His jimmies were rustled.
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:32 PM   #22
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I'd love to know what Wayne did that was so bad? If it is as you say, I'll gladly stop contributing to them and stop supporting them.
Reading OP might help with that.
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:57 PM   #23
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:05 PM   #24
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Reading OP might help with that.
So GB disapproval of Wayne because he spoke negatively against the US government and its agents makes him a bad guy now? Seems like he's a great guy that was WAY ahead of his time with those comments. Got anything else?
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:14 PM   #25
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So GB disapproval of Wayne because he spoke negatively against the US government and its agents makes him a bad guy now? Seems like he's a great guy that was WAY ahead of his time with those comments. Got anything else?
No.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:15 PM   #26
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So GB disapproval of Wayne because he spoke negatively against the US government and its agents makes him a bad guy now? Seems like he's a great guy that was WAY ahead of his time with those comments. Got anything else?
There's legitimate criticism of the Federal government and the people that work for it. Making explicit comparisons to Nazi SS is just bad taste.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:18 PM   #27
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There's legitimate criticism of the Federal government and the people that work for it. Making explicit comparisons to Nazi SS is just bad taste.
When I talk to my friends who are gun owners I really understand their points and support their rights. If all the pro-gun information came from people like the ones on this forum or Wayne LaPierre for that matter, I think I'd want them banned, too.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:24 PM   #28
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There's legitimate criticism of the Federal government and the people that work for it. Making explicit comparisons to Nazi SS is just bad taste.
Thats the problem with the left. When people compare Obama to Hitler or government agents to the SS, they automatically compare them to "Jew killers" There was a lot more to both hitler and the SS than just killing jews which allows for a legitimate political comparison...and I had both sets of grandparents in concentration camps.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:28 PM   #29
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When I talk to my friends who are gun owners I really understand their points and support their rights. If all the pro-gun information came from people like the ones on this forum or Wayne LaPierre for that matter, I think I'd want them banned, too.
Please, explain the different points between your friends and this forum.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:32 PM   #30
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Please, explain the different points between your friends and this forum.
Generalizations, sensationalism, fearmongering, us vs them on one side.

Responsible gun ownership with measured, realistic concern about the future of gun rights on the other.

They make fun of both sides for sensationalism and posturing. The gun nuts here are certain that the government is out to get them and think Obama is about to pry the guns away out of their cold dead hands.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:39 PM   #31
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Generalizations, sensationalism, fearmongering, us vs them on one side.

Responsible gun ownership with measured, realistic concern about the future of gun rights on the other.

They make fun of both sides for sensationalism and posturing. The gun nuts here are certain that the government is out to get them and think Obama is about to pry the guns away out of their cold dead hands.
There are many forms of the "government coming to get you." Furthermore, while Obama isn't taking the guns YET, he is letting people draft legislation that does, not to mention, to villify legal gun owners and spread BS information about "assault weapons" and magazines being lethal. I want to puke when I hear the liberals say "military STYLE assault weapons"....if I paint my Jeep army camo, that doesn't make it a tank.
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:01 PM   #32
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Generalizations, sensationalism, fearmongering, us vs them on one side.

Responsible gun ownership with measured, realistic concern about the future of gun rights on the other.

They make fun of both sides for sensationalism and posturing. The gun nuts here are certain that the government is out to get them and think Obama is about to pry the guns away out of their cold dead hands.
Understood.

What are some direct changes that should be put into law that curb gun violence?
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:15 PM   #33
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Understood.

What are some direct changes that should be put into law that curb gun violence?
Maybe none. Keep in mind I find the mass shootings almost unavoidable/unpredictable and statistically insignificant. Therefore, any action should focus on improving overall gun violence. As for the mass shootings, for the sake of the collective psyche, I think some "feel good" action would be beneficial. I do like the idea of studying gun violence for the sake of understanding cause and effect better. I don't think any gun bans or magazine restrictions would be effective, but I didn't do much research on that. I know it's anathema to most of the people on here and JonJon might lose his mind reading this, but I do like the idea of gun registration. It would help deal with illegal gun trade and crime solving. I do not think it would lead to mandatory disarmament. If you believe it would, I understand why you'd be against it.

What we really should do is what most pro-gun folks say: enforce existing laws. However, that has become extremely difficult to do thanks to the NRA. Here's what I wrote in the other thread.
Also consider that the ATF is essentially leaderless and powerless thanks to the actions of the NRA and the politicians they sponsor:
Tiahrt Amendment

Tiahrt is the author of the Tiahrt Amendment, which prohibits the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) from releasing information from its firearms trace database to anyone other than a law enforcement agency or prosecutor in connection with a criminal investigation. Additionally, any data so released is inadmissible in a civil lawsuit.[5] Some groups, including the Mayors Against Illegal Guns Coalition, believe that having further access to the ATF database would help municipal police departments track down sellers of illegal guns and curb crime. These groups are trying to undo the Tiahrt Amendment.[6] Numerous police organizations oppose the Tiahrt Amendment, such as the Major Cities Chiefs Association (MCCA) and the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP).[7] Conversely, the Tiahrt Amendment is supported by the Fraternal Order of Police, although it allows municipal police departments limited access to ATF trace data in any criminal investigation.
The reason why no one is even leading the agency is because Wisconsin Congressman James Sensenbrenner inserted a provision into the PATRIOT ACT of all places that the Senate has to confirm the ATF director...

Seen here with his "Defender of Freedom" award given to him by the NRA:


U.S. Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) received the NRA-ILA Defender of Freedom Award from Chris Cox.

How does preventing the ATF from getting a director defend our freedom?

The ATF can't even require dealers to take inventory, thanks to whom? Tiahrt Amendment! :
The agency has about 600 inspectors responsible for 60,000 retail gun dealers around the country. Dealers on average are inspected once every eight years. An estimated 10,500 compliance inspections were done last year. The agency revokes about 110 licenses a year, and dealers facing revocation voluntarily surrender their licenses in an additional 160 cases annually.

In 2001, ATF officials proposed that dealers be required to take inventory at least once a year to ensure that every weapon was accounted for, Helmke said. But after Congress approved the so-called Tiahrt Amendment in 2003, named for then-Rep. Todd Tiahrt (R-Kan.), the ATF was barred from requiring gun dealers to take inventories.

"Since the Tiahrt Amendment specifically says that ATF cannot require it," Helmke said, "it really ties their hands before they get started.

"Part of the problem is that ATF has been treated as the illegitimate stepchild. They don't have the funding, they don't have the staffing."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012500867.html
So, when pro-gun advocates say that there is plenty of laws and they just need to be enforced, they and the NRA seem to be talking out of two sides of the mouths, don't they?

As for that pesky amendment... this quote is the scariest:
In July 2003, as the Chicago case was headed to the U.S. Supreme Court, Tiahrt surprised colleagues on the Appropriations Committee with a broad amendment limiting gun trace release and tied it to ATF's budget.
"I wanted to make sure I was fulfilling the needs of my friends who are firearms dealers," Tiahrt said, according to a Washington Post article from the time. "(National Rifle Association officials) were helpful in making sure I had my bases covered." http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/wat.../84873522.html
For people who are so scared of the government, shouldn't you be even more scared when an outside group is writing our laws???
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:17 PM   #34
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The government shouldn't be keeping lists of people exercising their rights. I don't think you get it; the government isn't allowing you to have guns. "God" allows you to have guns. In fact, you allow the government to exist.

Legally speaking
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:47 PM   #35
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The government shouldn't be keeping lists of people exercising their rights. I don't think you get it; the government isn't allowing you to have guns. "God" allows you to have guns. In fact, you allow the government to exist.

Legally speaking
Are you such an ardent supporter of the ACLU? They fight for rights.
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:51 PM   #36
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Are you such an ardent supporter of the ACLU? They fight for rights.
Some things they do are good, some are batsh!t crazy. Unfortunately, the latter far exceeds the former.
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:22 PM   #37
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but I do like the idea of gun registration. It would help deal with illegal gun trade and crime solving.
Explain please

Illegal gun trade: You think people that are illegally trading guns are registering them? You are punishing innocent people that are forced to register their guns, have them stolen from them and used in crimes or traded around.

Crime solving: You think linking a gun to a person will help solve crimes? What connection would prove the owner used the gun? You are opening up a person to judicial punishment, loss of rights, and their emotional, social, physical stress. You are punishing a person that was forced to register their guns, have them stolen and used in crimes.

Following your line of thought. Since knives and bats cause more harm than shotgun/rifles... should every knife and bat be registered. Laugh if you want, but it's a honest question
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:22 PM   #38
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That is a good post Busa.

I believe that a AWB and magazine restrictions have no impact on gun violence and restricting them is a violation of the 2nd amendment.

I would have no problem registering a shot gun or AR. My pistols are currently registered as I am a CPL holder, I would no problem adhering my shotguns/ARs to that same policy, I have no problem with that.

I understand the argument against giving that information to the Federal government though.

Research into gun violence, I'm uncertain about. It sounds like neglect on my part but reality is our guns should not be jeopardy regardless of the research's outcome, so what is the point?
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:30 PM   #39
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Are you such an ardent supporter of the ACLU? They fight for rights.
They don't fight for rights equally, they only support liberal causes...which is why they are bullsh!t
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:35 PM   #40
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That is a good post Busa.


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I believe that a AWB and magazine restrictions have no impact on gun violence and restricting them is a violation of the 2nd amendment.

I would have no problem registering a shot gun or AR. My pistols are currently registered as I am a CPL holder, I would no problem adhering my shotguns/ARs to that same policy, I have no problem with that.

I understand the argument against giving that information to the Federal government though.

Research into gun violence, I'm uncertain about. It sounds like neglect on my part but reality is our guns should not be jeopardy regardless of the research's outcome, so what is the point?
If we're not researching because there is no point, because it is useless that's one thing. Actively suppressing research is another. Knowing more about how violence, safety, guns, etc. are interconnected and understanding true cause and effect seems like a positive thing to me. When is "not knowing" ever good?

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They don't fight for rights equally, they only support liberal causes...which is why they are bullsh!t
Oh?
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