CEL light on....SAP bad and other engine performance problems

MAF

siemens 5wk9 6132

1 438 871 >PBT-GF30<

Made in Germany.

These are the exact markings

There is a white barcode sticker
1 1095750

ebay FOR SALE link
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-330i-330...-/320864042928

Did you buy your MAF off of ebay? If so, this is where a lot of the questionable ones are coming from

in the o2 picture...up till time 240 was idle warmed up......the rest were steady 2000 rpm.

so far the only screen it will allow me to get into is screen shots.....no other way to save the log

i have not been able to find a supplier that i would trust......only ebay and places like alibaba....have it shown with those part numbers. but i would like to further diagnose with charts that the maf is bad.

it is looking like this is Chinese.....im almost 100% it is a knock off. When i type in that number all i find is china suppliers

the former owner told me it was replaced. with the way he took care of this car and the money i have spent on it getting it right. i am not surprised

everyone else that sells BMW parts has this #
13 62 7 567 451

O2 graph looks pretty good.

You really need a MAF based upon the Gram per Second values you are reading. I had my 1.8T VW out today and it even was getting up to 70+ Grams per Second when I jumped on it a bit, not wide out.

I was still using my Launch Creader VI for this.

Suggest a source like ECS, BimmerZone, AutoHausAZ, BMA Parts, possibly even Amazon.

I will try to see what my 2006 E46 330cic looks like if I can get any info without removing it.

Since it is not original, I would think it is a counterfeit or wrong application??

I put the Siemens number you had on Google and almost everything came up Ebay and had China associated with it.

DO NOT BUY ON EBAY.

Replace your MAF, you will be likely have a good running engine.

could this simply be a vacuum leak. o2 is reading air in the system (reading a lean condition) ....reporting it to the computer....computer adjusts the injectors to run rich. this extra air being down stream from the maf sensor could do that.

No likely a Chinese make fake MAF??

Your readings are WAY off from where they should be.

There is no way you have any vacuum leak that would cause your MAF readings to be SO low, the engine just could not run.

Just make sure you are reading Grams per Second with Torque and not Liters per Min or some other wacked out setting.

If you are reading Grams per Second, get your self a real MAF, the minute you install it on the car it will be night and day difference.

I looked at my 330 breifly, no stickers what so ever on the MAF. My car is a 2006 and it is original. I was unable to look inside as it was TOO cold out, 22F.

Also your MAF looked like it had window screen in it?? Most MAF have honey comb cast plastic to straighten the airflow path. Was yours actually like a window screen??

o2 timeframe 47.48 to minute 53.00

bank 1 #1 blue
bank 2 #1 red

bank 1 #2 green
bank 2 #2 purple

MAF 3.4 to 4

95C

will do a graph of MAF (y) RPM (X)
Coolant temp

the other night the maf went to 4......i let it idle for a while and jumped to 6. at 6 the idle seemed normal....at 4 the idle seemed low.

what are these o2 readings telling you. i could do a log with cold start with no sap. ive finally figured out how to use this app.

the app also has a temperature warning alarm if your car overheats. mine is set at 100c right now

i would also like to know how to post a bigger image. the image i have saved is much bigger

IGNORE THE READINESS MONITORS. When you Reset the codes, all monitors begin again. They do not get to Ready for several drive cycles. Just because they are not ready is meaningless, EXCEPT that if they are not ready, you cannot get your car smogged. If you reset codes, the monitors do not come to ready for several drive cycles. If you check codes again and again, and reset each time, then the readiness monitors will never complete.

The SAP does nothing for rich or lean. The _only_ job of the SAP is to provide fresh air to the exhaust stream to assist the CATs to do what they do before they come up to operating temp. The SAP turns off after 120-ish seconds, and it only comes on with Cold Engine Start. Rich and lean are conditions that exist long before the exhaust gets to the CAT, and I don't even think the car's computer looks at rich and lean while the SAP is supposed to be running. CATs don't work well when cold, so the SAP was added to help reduce emissions immediately after Cold Engine Start. The SAP is not part of the Rich condition. Period.

GLHX,

So you are getting closer with the Torque App.

So overall it looks like your O2 sensors are working pretty much as expected.

Would be nice to see the graph from a cold start for the first 3-4 minutes, but if you SAP is not working properly it likely will not have the proper signature we would usually expect.

Your pre Cat sensors have a good swing and your post Cats are pretty flat at the baseline Voltage of around 0.72-0.74 Volts which appears a bit high as I recall? But overall pretty close to what I would expect. You can really see the post Cat sensor swing on warm up in the first 3-4 minutes with the SAP running. This give a better idea of what is going on with the sensors.

Are you planning on ordering a quality MAF for the car? I am fairly convinced this is primarily why your getting your lean codes. Your MAF Grams per Second should be running upwards of 50+ if you jump on the throttle even the slightest.

I have performed a WOT 3rd gear run in my 330, however, I expect the value should easily hit over 100 Grams/Sec.

will try to log more data tonight with cold starting.

the extra air injected at cold start is to reduce emissions by adding the air to the unburned fuel. i know its not causing the bad mileage but over time....without it and the car being designed to run it. that unburned fuel that is not getting oxidized is going into my cats and could be fouling out the o2 sensors. i dont know if that worry should even be a concern. the unburned fuel might pass right through without gumming up or clogging. i dont have enough experience with it to know how much time or fuel will have an effect

Originally Posted by glhx

will try to log more data tonight with cold starting.

the extra air injected at cold start is to reduce emissions by adding the air to the unburned fuel. i know its not causing the bad mileage but over time....without it and the car being designed to run it. that unburned fuel that is not getting oxidized is going into my cats and could be fouling out the o2 sensors. i dont know if that worry should even be a concern. the unburned fuel might pass right through without gumming up or clogging. i dont have enough experience with it to know how much time or fuel will have an effect

The SAP is not your problem. Not today, not tomorrow. Fix the SAP, but it is not any part of the rich condition, or any other condition you are having.

You should ignjore any and all emissions numbers that your car produces BEFORE it gets to normal operating temp. If you are starting a cold engine, then expecting things to be "normal" then you will be very disappointed. There is nothing normal until the engine reaches its operating temperature.

Originally Posted by glhx

could this simply be a vacuum leak. o2 is reading air in the system (reading a lean condition) ....reporting it to the computer....computer adjusts the injectors to run rich. this extra air being down stream from the maf sensor could do that.

What a minute!

Air that leaks into the system (intake) after the MAF is an unknown, and always results in a lean condition. The O2s will report a lean if they cannot call for enough gas to overcome the extra air that is not known.

If the O2s are reporting a rich, then it is not because of a leak in the intake.

O2s report the state of the exhaust. If they report rich, then there is too much gas in the exhaust. If they report lean, then there is too much air. If the O2s are failing, have failed, then there is no way to know that what they report is true or not. If they report rich AND there is an intake leak, then they are failing. They are unreliable at best.

I only have one comment, that I continue to make.

Your MAF readings appear WAY too low, a sign of a severely compromised MAF.

At this point I would like to see a 10-20 minute MAF & RPM graph. Heck, you really do not even need to graph the MAF if you cannot get the MAF reading much above 30 Gram/Sec even slightly spirited.

I took my E46 out tonight with Torque on it and pushed it pretty hard and was easily able to get the MAF to read over 100 Gram/Sec while still under 4500 RPM probably in 2nd or 3rd gear.

The main thing I want to see is where the baseline Voltage of the O2 sensors starts out. If your SAP is still not working, your O2 signature will not be what I am expecting.

The only other thing that could be a factor that these tools will not really tell you is if you have an exhaust restriction, plugged Cat's but this will likely be a long shot and you can confirm this with a $40 Amazon tester. But someone would have to really abuse the car to clog the Cats.

Forget about your fuel economy at this point, this will be resolved once you get everything else in line or you can focus fuel economy once the basics are working correctly. This is really the last thing you should be worried about.

The SAP not working can even impact fuel economy a bit as the O2 sensors take longer to warm up and the engine will stay in a fixed open loop warm up enrichment longer than it would with the SAP working properly.

I just now logged a lot of data. With the Maf. At idle just now I was at 3.2. The strange thing is.......when I hit the gas for min just to get a jolt it hit 70. On the open road I hit 150 at 6500. It consistently jumped up when I floored it and hit no less than 130+. I will have the sap fixed soon to get a clear reading. I did notice that the o2 sensors zeroed out when I floored it. I dropped off to idle and it stayed 0 until I hit the gas

OK, maybe there is some confusion but the MAF readings are starting to sound more reasonable.

You have to have the engine under a constant load to get accurate MAF readings. You will see momentary jumps in neutral, but you need to have then engine under load to really see the max measurement from the MAF.

Around town you should get close to 30-40 Grams/Sec during the heaver throttle positions. This would typically be staying under 3k RPM.

I think my 330 was idling right about 4 Grams/Sec?

I will hold my comments on the MAF for the moment.

What would be helpful, do not even need graphs, is to gather the idle Fuel trims and post them. You should expect the long term fuel trims at idle to be under 3% on a decent running engine with few if any intake/crankcase air leaks. I prefer to see under 2% but at times this may not be cost efffective to look for issue between 2% and 3%.

Are your LTFT's still over 10%?

Also compare your STFT at idle and while cruising say 40-55 MPH, on a fairly flat road and maybe even with the cruise control on. The STFT will jump around a bit, it may be easier to graph a few minutes of these values, what I am looking for is how the STFT average is at idle vs cruise. STFT may be considered LTFT by many, but I am trying to understand how tight the intake and crankcase area at idle and what happens to the trims at cruise.

mass air flow over rpm range.

the long term for both banks was the same so the purple line covers the green

idle is towards the end of the graph

fuel trims over speed

the long term fuel trims are still running +8.59%. Thats down from +11.72% i had the other day. showing lean making it run rich?

Still high.....i would like it to be where you said. around 2 or 3

torque pro is showing the 171 and 174 codes.

if the oxygen sensors are telling the computer that there is excess oxygen in the system.....and the computer is adding fuel to compensate running up the fuel trim to a +8.59 or even +11.72 because it thinks there is a lean condition based on the o2 sensors information. then wouldnt the o2 sensors be reading a constant or average lean condition?......like hanging mostly around a lower range. i see them pretty balanced between 1 and 8. but like you said. the post cats look like they are reporting rich. shouldnt they be reporting lean as well to get the computer to compensate by adding fuel.
the post cats running higher voltage. wouldnt that tell the computer to start taking away fuel and run the fuel trims more towards 0.
Does the 02 sensor follow short term fuel trim? I also will look for where short erm fuel trim is going so much into the + side to make such a high LTFT. typically STFT was pretty balanced


i did read that the MAF should produce 1 gram per liter ....per 500 rpm as a rule of thumb. if that is the case then 4 grams at 700 or 800 rpm sounds about right. looking at the graph for the maf is another story. i only know what it should look like when i floor it.....as in it should shoot up. and at idle it should run in neutral between 4 and 5g/sec.....and now know that loaded it should be around 7. the cruising speeds are harder to judge. ive had a hard time where i have a flat spot where i can run 35 to 40. there are a lot of hills around here.

i will have the ltft and stft at idle and the 40 - 55 tomorrow

Could this be a weak fuel pump upon acceleration
Small vacuum leak
Clogged injector
Injector o rings