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Old 01-27-2013, 03:49 PM   #41
glhx
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The short term seems to stay in the 0 to 3 range. It shoots up to 11 percent on acceleration. Then the short term re adjusts itself.

Last edited by glhx; 01-27-2013 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:54 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glhx View Post
The short term seems to stay in the 0 to 3 range. It shoots up to 11 percent on acceleration. Then the short term re adjusts itself.
Is the STFT supposed to jump positive on acceleration. If not. I might have a weak fuel pump or not enough fuel. The condition is definitely a lean one

Last edited by glhx; 01-27-2013 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:17 PM   #43
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Been tied up a bit and still scratching my head a bit on this one. You have some strange behaviors that do not seem to make clear sense.

I guess it looks like your STFT are 0-3 range at idle??

I also assume the STFT are much higher while cruising? Can you confirm this.

Usually lean conditions when cruising are either due to MAF or fuel delivery, however, I am still not 100% convinced we have been able to fully understand that the O2 sensors are also working properly.

Have you been able to confirm that all sensor are connected to the proper pigtail in the engine compartment.

I have seen O2 sensors mixed up before and they totally confuse the fuel delivery.

I will try to see what my STFT do on my 330 possibly even tonight if I have time.
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:42 PM   #44
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GLHX,

Can you confirm your year, engine type and transmission?

I need to figure out if your car had wideband or standard O2 sensors and a understand a few other items.
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:58 PM   #45
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:01 PM   #46
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The STFT only raise above 3 when I accelerate. At cruise they run plus minus 3.

I have a log I haven't posted yet that shows o2 and fuel trims over a 25 mile run......I will take out and graph idle and flat cruising speeds .

I accelerate and the shoot up to 11..... Let off and cruise at 2000 they are stoic. It's problem has a couple of people baffled. It's either not enough fuel or too much air at idle or cruise or acceleration.

I thought. Maybe since it goes lean only when I hit the gas that there is not enough gas getting through for the acceleration.....like clogged injectors or soft fuel pump....or too much air.....like a small vacuum leak. But that wouldn't really effect higher rpms. Faulty o2 reading wrong and telling lies. I need to look at maf in open loop when it works the most. Doesn't the o2 work the most in closed loop

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Old 01-27-2013, 09:17 PM   #47
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Does it look like any of the O2 sensors have ever been replaced, even with solder/pigtail universal sensors??

It appears since you have an early version engine, I think you should have standard O2 sensors, not wideband.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:25 PM   #48
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they switched to the wide band in 04. i do have a lot of raw data i would like to send you. it seems easier to look at it in that form over a graph. it has rpm, speed, all fuel trims.....all 4 o2 sensors
....it seems like it might be easier to look at than a graph with s many variables

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Old 01-28-2013, 10:56 PM   #49
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one thing that is weird....i get the 1071 and 1074 from the torque pro app. but i do not get it from the pa soft.

Quote:
P0171 is not an Oxygen Sensor problem. Before a P0171 code is possible, the computer first ran a series of tests to validate the readings from the oxygen sensors. Since the oxygen sensors passed their readiness tests and didn't set any codes, the computer then looked to the Fuel Trim adjustment. When the computer determined the air-to-fuel mixture to be too lean, it then set the P0171 code
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=880406 (just for my reference and understanding)

the pa soft gives me the o2 deviation rich code

in looking at the MAF graph on the previous page. it shows the idle 4 g/sec to be correct in neutral (i believe thats correct) and around 6 g/sec in gear......when floored it goes up to 130 to 150 g/sec.

im interested in what the ranges for light acceleration are. The stft fuel trim are going to +11% under acceleration only. I would like to rule out the MAF sensor if the numbers are right.

when i figure this out and the car is running back to normal. I will post graphs and data on a separate thread for reference purposes. an obd2 graph reference for the e46

A pattern i have found in the charted data.........the fuel trims NEVER spike up at idle. for the most part they want to behave.....its small instances where they shoot up into the 9s and tens....i see more 7s than +10s......the rest of the time the short term trims like to be at 0 to4 and 0 to -4. they mostly go up on acceleration but every once in a while they will sneak in to the 10s and +11s on a flat cruise at 60mph.....but even then on the flat cruises they like to go back to normal......they zero out at 85 to 100mph. will post a longer graph of short term trims to speed and rpm tomorrow.

also.....should the post cat 02s ever toggle to lean. im getting several .1 values.....they are usually mostly .7 and .8

Last edited by glhx; 01-29-2013 at 03:28 AM.
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:02 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glhx View Post
I received an item that allows me to use the torque pro app today.

vacuum 24 according to torque pro
engine rpm 700
engine rpm in drive 640 rpm
coolant temp was 84C
throttle showed at 10
o2 sensor data bouncing between .1and .7 volts will post pictures between the bank 1 and 2
they do look different. bank 1 is more up and down and bank two is more smooth.
post cat o2 runs live at .45 straight across

obd rediness....evap is unready
SAP system unready (because its not even on the car right now) The electric motor melted.

o2, catalyst, o2 heater.....show ready

I used PA soft to get bmw specific codes because the CEL was on
The first time was
P0491 = Secondary Air Injection System Insufficient Flow (Bank 1)
P0492 = Secondary Air Injection System Insufficient Flow (Bank 2)

I cleared it and a day later i got
E4/B1 - Oxygen sensor controller, bank 2, deviation too great, deviation rich
E3/B1 - Oxygen sensor controller, bank 1, deviation too great, deviation rich

I know the SAP is not working and that the pump is bad.

Could this be why my car is running so rich? Average gas mileage is decreasing and is now down to 15mpg on the obc
Dude if you want/need SAP I have a used one that's in perfect working order and I would be willing to sell it for cheap. I flashed my DME with the EU2 tune and haven't used it ever since.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Bimmer App
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:04 PM   #51
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verified the o2 sensors are hooked up correctly. i unplugged them 1 at a time and matched each one to the diagnostic graph.

verified again the fuel pressure.......50psi at idle......in neutral i revved the engine.......(is this still considered under load or does it have to be in drive going down the road) after revving to 2500rpm and higher the fuel pressure stayed at 50psi.

from a dead stop i took off fast the engine and got a huge surge.

the data i have logged is a flat run at around 57mph cruising around 2000rpm. i logged o2, maf, speed, rpm, fuel trims........there is no definite pattern. lean short term fuel just sneaks in there on the high + side as i can see for no reason. the only thing close to making any sense is the maf running lower numbers and the stft going higher on the plus side......but it doesnt do it all the time. when i bought the car and drove it home 700miles. it ran 28mpg......as soon as i got it home it went down to 26. not a big deal.....and then recently......19.....now im concerned. could this be clogged injectors on both banks? i know were not worried about mileage at this point as the underlying problem will fix that. its to get the ideology that something got worse over time.

Last edited by glhx; 01-29-2013 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:19 PM   #52
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screen shots of data in order.

picture 4 shows +9% short term fuel trim.......almost all the rest fall in a low range
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:35 PM   #53
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graph of short term fuel trim for bank 1 and 2 2000 rpm 57 mph run

from what i can see on this graph........

when less g/sec show up......more fuel is added......when more g/sec show up......fuel is taken away

shouldnt this be exactly the opposite.....more g/sec of air more fuel should be added. the opposite pattern on this graph is almost perfect. I am too new at this to know for certain.

i will do one at 2500 under no load and another at idle with load or no load

the second picture shows the rpm (1800 to 2100) graph at the bottom by itself....does it match the MAF or the trim

the graph shows the same pattern......just reversed
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:01 PM   #54
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o2 readings 2000 rpm flat run at 56 mph


1st picture o2 close up bank 1 2 precat 1 and 2 post cat also

2nd picture..........purple and green are post cat.

i didnt think the post cats o2 sensors were supposed to toggle

3rd picture......a good comparison of maf and pre cat o2 voltage.

do you see anything here that catches your attention?

the o2 sensor might be cycling just fine.....but how fast does it need to cycle? if its not cycling fast enough. would that not throw the fuel trims off?
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:16 PM   #55
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40-45 mph run


fuel trims never went out of range.
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:23 PM   #56
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STFT and MAF at idle in neutral

didnt go out of range
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:36 PM   #57
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2500----down to 2000-----to 4000-----to idle NO LOAD

look what it did at idle

it did go into the +7 range in the acceleration to 4000rpm

the strange thing about this is that for the most part......the fuel trims go into the higher +.......only on load and maybe on acceleration with no load. remember the 55mph flat run in the top pictures was loaded and driving.

the maf seemed all over the place and the rpms were steady. I think the MAF is bad.....Can you confirm this. Plus both o2 sensors going out at the same time not likely......not likely a vacuum leak. the long term fuel trims would have gone down with me doing whats in this picture if that was the case. this whole time....with every test the LTFT never went down to any sort of acceptable range
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:40 PM   #58
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Idle-2000-3000 and back to idle

this one is with the MAF disconnected......the fuel trims went into the peak negative taking fuel away......at idle

upon rev.....the fuel trims went into high negative but not as high as it did in idle.......ThE LTFT went to 0....what does this mean?

maybe with all this data someone can see some patterns that are obvious to them and not to me
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:14 PM   #59
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Man you are killing me with this issue!!!

You have a very crazy problem on your hands and I applaud your efforts for sticking with the diagnosis and gathers your data.

I am also leaning toward the MAF after looking at your 57 MPH run a day or so ago. The problem is my wife drives the E46 and I cannot get my hands on it on a regular basis lately. I did drive my daughters VW Beetle with a 1.8 turbo motor and compare the MAF readings on that and the 12 Gram/sec figures you were seeing while highway cruise seem to be a bit low.

Your idle value is pretty good and your WOT values are very close to where I would expect them to be without fully taking into consideration altitude, humidity, temperature and so forth.

It does appear that your MAF is dropping down and under reporting at times when cruising. One of your last graphs appears to show the MAF output dive and stay low toward the end of graphing and I believe your road conditions and engine load did not change much.

You may want to make sure the terminals in the MAF connector are tight and an old school MAF test that may?? yield some results would be to take screw driver, grab the blade and knock on the MAF with the handle and watch the MAF reading and see if they jump significantly. This may not be a proper test for your problem, but my guess is there may be a bad solder joint or component in the MAF that might be causing the hot film heater current to be lost and the maf output drops significantly and under reports the air flow??

I hate to guess at this to some extent, but your problem is not a hard or soft failure but an intermittent problem.

Just do no purchase an ebay MAF as you will likely be worse off?
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:36 PM   #60
glhx
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yeah this ones got me too. I will learn everything i can and then some.....but im not going to give up on this. I like my cars to run 100% and this cant be good for the catalytic converter. next problem will be the evap leak....i have an incomplete and while the mil light isnt on the dash.....and it does work.....it is on in the pa soft live data.

i wish this intermittent problem would just get it over with and fail.

i would like to know the voltage references for the maf....and when you get a chance...the maf references. Even with the voltage references it might not help.....because at the rpm ranges with no load....its acting normal.....although they did start to creep into the + side in the 4 to 5 range at the 4000 rpm hold.

it would be nice to get maf actual or even baro pressure...but torque pro doesnt do those for this car...i thank you for stickling with me. your expertise has been valuable

the last graph.....the rpm did go back down to idle right from 4000rpm......and the numbers went straight to -5 and then -10....i then shut off the car. I dont know why it dropped down there.....usually the short term trims drop down to compensate for + trims...in this case...there were no + trims of that high a range to compensate for

oem bimmer parts does have a maf for $109 by a company called tps or something like that.....i did talk to him about it. he told me hes sold 400 and 10 have come back....he also said the 10 that came back could have been people that didnt know what they were doing or were using his product to diagnose their cars.....the product has been made only 9 months. I dont know if i will buy into that or not....i will probably go the oem route.


in the 2nd to last graph the maf did drop at idle to its normal range of 3 or so...but the fuel trim shot down to -10.....whats with that?

Last edited by glhx; 01-31-2013 at 10:56 PM.
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