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Old 02-01-2013, 02:23 PM   #61
glhx
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what would be the effect of a weak SAP CHECK VALVE. could that cause an intermittent exhaust leak. and wouldnt that show o2 sensor to go lean. i doubt this but its speculation. maybe its not seating due to carbon build up.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:36 PM   #62
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i will also keep in mind we couldnt find an american or european supplier for the MAF that's on my car.

so lets go into the markings on it. It does say made in germany...it does have Siemens stamped on it. but when you type in the 5wk number,,,,,,,it shows chines for any cars. Is china counterfeiting parts?.....yes....we know they are. But are they doing it with quality brand names stamped on them directly...saying made in Germany word for word? Maybe they are. they get an original....cast the housing. thats simple enough.....then their housing says Siemens on it....but its housing is really cast in china. What gets me is the 5wk 6132 also stamped on it. why put that # on there? its that number that is making it distinct showing us that its probably made in china. why dont they just put an original number on there if they go that far?

I would like to know what the castings and identification of an original are. what are the exact markings? I do know the former owner put a maf on this car. I bet he put on the cheapest he could find as he told me to never change the transmission fluid......the first thing is did....and the state of lack of maintenance . The new mafs numbers are printed on the top of the MAF sensor itself looking at product pictures.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/30...S_5WK9641.html
look here....says siemens......but look around...brand name....dingcheng.....wtf?

In looking at all this im just going to replace the sensor. and when i get the SAP repaired i will look at the o2 sensors.....see that they might be fine but coming into closed loop later than i want and replace them as well. I learned a lot about a lot of things for advanced diagnosis for any car so i am better for it. I hope the Maf is the problem......

ALSO.......which scanner for a bmw can i get for a reasonable price will give me Specified and actual maf readings, as well as test the sensor.

GT1, Inpa, ncs, progman? any of these? I need ncs to recode a used abs module board anyway.

How does the Disa valve preform and could it cause these problems? would be very interested in knowing this. i would hate to replace the MAF just to find out the disa is the cause. it is an original disa. it was tested 20,000 miles ago and was perfect....and sealed with a new o ring. how do they affect fuel trims at the higher rpm ranges.

Last edited by glhx; 02-01-2013 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:35 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdstrickland View Post
The SAP does nothing for rich or lean.
Not true. SAP has hoses that go directly into the intake manifold that is controlled by a one-way valve, which may have stuck open. If you do not have a well sealed SAP, you will have lean codes resulting from that.

OP needs to solve his SAP problem first before worrying about anything else.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:55 PM   #64
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SAP does not feed into the intake path, the air is injected into the exhaust ports after the exhaust valves to preheat the O2 sensors, cats and to also burn off excess hydrocarbons during cold start enrichment.
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:04 PM   #65
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The sap system is working.....the pump is not working. The valve at the manifold is opening normally......air is not pumping in. There are no vac leaks n there. I am going to block off the sap control valve to make sure there is no air entering the exhaust manifold at higher rpm until it is fixed. My problem is hAppening at the higher rpms where vacuum is not present. And where the sap isn't present.

I do however think the sap will allow the evap system to show as working when the sap is fixed. The computer looks at the sap...o2 and a bunch of other things before the evap can do its job.

I could just replace the maf and hope that it. But I want to make sure as far as I can go before I just drop money into it.

The first graph on page 3 shows the maf may be bad.

I am going to do a volumetric efficiency maf test right now.
If the sap does solve this problem I will post it....but many people just remove it with out dime reef lashing and have not had any effects. I could only see it not working clog up the cats over a long period of time and maybe fouling o2 sensors due to the lack of sap air mixing with that exhaust gas when it is designed to do so.

Jfoj is right......The sap does go directly into the exhaust ports.
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Old 02-04-2013, 03:12 PM   #66
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The SAP also does absolutely nothing for fuel control. It only runs during open loop for typically up to 90 seconds on cold start, it can even shut off earlier if the O2 sensors are warm enough to go into closed loop before 90 seconds is up.

If the SAP continued to run once closed loop was reached the addition air introduced into the exhaust stream would confuse the O2 sensor and force them to read lean, then possibly causing an erroneous fuel enrichment by the DME.

If the open SAP is casing air to leak int the exhaust ports, you should see the O2 sensors reading lean in your graphs. I do not think your O2 are way out of wack as I recall?? But this is also true of exhaust leaks, O2 bung weld cracks and header to cylinder head exhaust leaks.
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:02 PM   #67
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I took it for a drive to get more data on volumetric efficiency.

I noticed something I missed in the graphs.

This is ........only happening when I step on the gas.......

I can be at 3000 rpm And STFT is in range.....as long as I'm not accelerating. Soon as I step on the gas to go faster STFT climbs into the +10 range. Soon as I let off.....normal range

This problem only happens when the throttle is opened.
I logged and will graph throttle position and STFT....as well as ve and maf

Extra air is getting in there only during acceleration......or not enough fuel is being supplied only during acceleration. But the o2 sensors are not picking this lean condition up.....and if extra air did come in the maf wouldn't see it. It would have to be o2 that checks that.....and it doesn't

I check this multiple time.....I stepped on the gas...STFT shot up....let off the gas STFT went down....stepped on the gas they went up.......floored it....the STFT went to 0....maybe because of too many pidS being logged

Last edited by glhx; 02-04-2013 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:46 PM   #68
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I know the system is supposed to add fuel during acceleration.....but how much fuel. +10 STFT worth? I doubt it.....and this is what's driving the LTFT up to the +10 range. STFT usually creates LTFT if its 25% higher or lower over time. Mine is doing that over and over again till it reaches +10.

Will have to check fuel pressure under load during acceleration.

http://www.obd-codes.com/faq/fuel-trims.php

Last edited by glhx; 02-04-2013 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:12 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by glhx View Post
I know the system is supposed to add fuel during acceleration.....but how much fuel. +10 STFT worth? I doubt it.....and this is what's driving the LTFT up to the +10 range. STFT usually creates LTFT if its 25% higher or lower over time. Mine is doing that over and over again till it reaches +10.

Will have to check fuel pressure under load during acceleration.

http://www.obd-codes.com/faq/fuel-trims.php
Hmm!
I don't know why I missed this fun stuff.
I tried to read carefully and as much as I can, but there were a lot of things going on since this was a new tool for you.
You may need to slow it down a little and summarize what you learned and fixed so far. What I mean is instead of putting every test, do your own prove or disapprove test for your assumption.

A couple of things I can pointed out:
1. Do not expect that the data you are seeing is the whole picture of what's going on in DME. OBDII requirement is 10 data points per second, however your tool may only be able to capture one per second depending on number of PIDs you are logging.
Actual DME has to operates much faster than that to process all inputs and control all output devices at high rpm. For example, each cylinder will fire 25 times per second at 3000 rpm (3000 rev / min = 50 rev / sec, 4 cycle engine will fire every other revolution). Therefore, each exhaust bank's oxygen sensor will see 75 firings (25 X 3).
2. During wide open throttle acceleration (not sure what % of throttle is considered to be WOT by BMW) and closed throttle coast down, fuel control is open loop. That's why you see 0 for STFT. You can check by looking at the "fuel status" pid.

Last edited by dslboomer; 02-06-2013 at 01:35 AM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:30 AM   #70
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I was wondering if you were going to come in. I thought about messaging you.

My STFT go up.....only during acceleration.....and tonight when I let off they went to the high negative side. But like clockwork....as soon as I hit that gas ....up they went for both banks....and both banks are at+11.7 now.

Usually when I let off they go back to normal range.

The problem is that it is only during acceleration. It's harder to test things there.

STFT went higher when the hill got steeper. It could be several things. And I don't know which one of those things.

Fuel pump failure in flow or pressure....I can test pressure.....but I have no idea of the specs for flow at a given rpm. I would like to know....because I have them graphed out.

Maf reading wrong.....mine is reading fine at idle.....reading fine at wot which is like 90% .....I don't know about the other ranges.....again,....I have no specs for it.

Fuel filter was replaced 20k ago.

O2 sensors lying.....they read perfect at all times.....even though I think they are original and have 130k on them

Intake air leak......but it's not leaking at idle.....fuel trim show normal there.
And STFT are usually high due to vac leaks

http://blog.bavauto.com/10781/bmw-an...nd-fuel-trims/

Plus that link....the fuel trim description says nothing but fuel pump....but other links show nothing but maf sensor.

My problem is......where do I go

This seems like a lean under load condition

Sometimes I log 2 pidS....sometimes 6 of them. I have not paid attention to the time value of it....just the comparisons . Trying to find a pattern in graphs that looks out of place. But I don't know what I'm looking at in some cases. There is data of the extreme value....maf at idle is this....maf at wot is that.....but what about mid throttle. Without knowing I am just looking for pattern

Last edited by glhx; 02-06-2013 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:31 AM   #71
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I can post more graphs of fuel flow. Ve. Throttle position, maf, rpm, etc....or send anyone who wants to see it.....the raw data

But I'm very new to graphs.....and without the specs of what things should be doing in the whole picture.....they won't help me without being taught how the numbers represent things

3 days ago I thought it was the maf....today I think the fuel pumps going. Whatever it is....I would be nice if it would just fail.....but that's not going to happen.....could be another year before it does

And cats don't like even 10% extra....the clog up or burn up. Mine is more like 15% lean....adding all that fuel.....costing in gas and wearing my expensive cats. This stuff is not very well designed to fail. If one thing is off.....the whole thing is off....

Last edited by glhx; 02-06-2013 at 01:46 AM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:44 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by glhx View Post
I can post more graphs of fuel flow. Ve. Throttle position, maf, rpm, etc....or send anyone who wants to see it.....the raw data

But I'm very new to graphs.....and without the specs of what things should be doing in the whole picture.....they won't help me without being taught how the numbers represent things

3 days ago I thought it was the maf....today I think the fuel pumps going. Whatever it is....I would be nice if it would just fail.....but that's not going to happen.....could be another year before it does
I sent you a PM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:37 AM   #73
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How common is it that fuel flow affects these cars. I hear a lot about pressure and I can find a lot about pressure. I cannot however find much about flow. Usually it's fuel injectors or regulator that causes these problems.

But my regulator is 20,000 miles old. Plus this problem just came over a 2 week period to get where it is now. Fuel injectors ......all 6 would have to be clogged. And that's like o2 sensors. What are the chances both are bad at the same time and went out at exactly the same time.

I have not checked fuel pressure under load yet. That's the last physical thing I can do without maybe some sort of smoke test.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:34 AM   #74
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Just throwing this out here

Could this be.......,.a bad battery. Maybe not giving fuel pump enough electrical power under load.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:00 AM   #75
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Worn fuel pump relay?

Will trade.....with horn relay

Last edited by glhx; 02-06-2013 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:38 AM   #76
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How common is it that fuel flow affects these cars. I hear a lot about pressure and I can find a lot about pressure. I cannot however find much about flow. Usually it's fuel injectors or regulator that causes these problems.

But my regulator is 20,000 miles old. Plus this problem just came over a 2 week period to get where it is now. Fuel injectors ......all 6 would have to be clogged. And that's like o2 sensors. What are the chances both are bad at the same time and went out at exactly the same time.

I have not checked fuel pressure under load yet. That's the last physical thing I can do without maybe some sort of smoke test.
I have reviewed one of your log comparing partial throttle and idle, and have one suspicion.
Do you remember the vacuum line connected to the fuel pressure regulator (FPR) attached to fuel filter?
Please check the vacuum line on the FPR. If they look good, start the engine and check for vacuum.
You know the vacuum line originates from the F connector on the first zip tube (intake boot), don't you?

Last edited by dslboomer; 02-06-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:22 PM   #77
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Yes.......I actually did just now disconnect that line......and nothing happened.

I had a pressure gauge hooked up to the valve while I disconnected that line. What are your thoughts on the fpr.

I thought when I disconnected it the pressure should go up....but it did not go up.

Here's another thing. I load tested it with the fuel pressure gauge Hooke up. I opened torque pro. And went to live data in the short term fuel trim.

I stepped on the brakes and torqued the car to load the engine. I loaded it to 2500 rpm while the tires burned. I saw the fuel trim shoot up as soo as I loaded it on the accelerator. They shot up to +8 and +10. While watching this happen I looked at the fuel pressure. It never came off of 50 lbs.

I'm interested in your suspicion. What just happened makes no sense. If the regulator was disconnected the pressure should have risen....if I was losing fuel and going lean when the fuel terms shot up that high the pressure should have dropped to show lack of fuel....an it did not. These two situations with the fpr and the fuel trims don't make sense

Either way......I'm going to test that vac line

Last edited by glhx; 02-06-2013 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:27 PM   #78
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Just to let you know..all those lines were replaced. But that doesn't mean its not bad connection

Last edited by glhx; 02-06-2013 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:46 PM   #79
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Interesting.......that vac line is hooked up.......and my pressure tester pumps it up to 20. .....but it does bleed of......could is be it?

I mean .....at acceleration.....this small leak could be sucking in enough air to cause lean.....and the fpr can't function like it needs to.

Last edited by glhx; 02-06-2013 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:07 PM   #80
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Interesting.......that vac line is hooked up.......and my pressure tester pumps it up to 20. .....but it does bleed of......could is be it?

I mean .....at acceleration.....this small leak could be sucking in enough air to cause lean.....and the fpr can't function like it needs to.
Did you feel the vacuum at the hose end where it connects to FPR?
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